Sought After God

[PreachTony]

**Disclaimer: I'm placing this thread here in the Calvinism/Arminianism Debate thread, though if the mods feel another forum is a better place, I will understand if it is moved.**

The first of the Five Points of Calvinism, as we all know, is Total Depravity. Some, though I'm not sure how many on this board, claim that Total Depravity renders man completely incapable of seeking after God. Now, we can of course argue the true extent of Total Depravity; whether it applies only to repentance and salvation, or if it applies to all aspects of man failing to seek God.

My personal experience with Calvinists has tended toward the latter, as many of the Calvinists I've spoken to in person claim that man is so depraved he cannot possibly seek after God in any aspect of his life. (NOTE: When I say "personal experience with Calvinists, I mean to say those Calvinists with whom I've spoken in person.) I'm curious what the Calvinists and non-Calvinists here think concerning the ability to seek God. I know this will probably open the door to snippiness and terseness, but I do ask that we respectfully talk about this topic, if possible.

I know many supports of Calvinism turn to Romans 3:10-12 to prove Total Depravity:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

But all the way back in the time of David, we see the psalmist writing the following:

1 I will bless the Lord at all times: his praise shall continually be in my mouth.
2 My soul shall make her boast in the Lord: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.
3 O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together.
4 I sought the Lord, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.
5 They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed.
6 This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles.

This scripture reveals a man capable of seeking after God, and crying out to God.

Jumping forward to the Gospels, we see a very specific episode found in all four Gospels.

19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.
20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

24 And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

In each of these gospel stories, we see a woman who made the choice to seek after Jesus for healing, believing that Jesus could heal her. The understanding that I have of Total Depravity, per the information gleaned from speaking to Calvinists, would render this woman incapable of deciding within herself to seek after Jesus. Total Depravity would stop the psalmist from seeking after God, and crying out to God.

But then we see Paul standing atop Mars' Hill in Athens, in the Areopagus, referring to the various altars and inscriptions all around him, and he launched into a sermon about the UNKNOWN GOD. In speaking to a crowd that was, in all likelihood, non-Jewish and non-Christian, Paul said the following:

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

If man is completely incapable of seeking after God, then why would Paul, seemingly preaching in the Spirit, say that men should "seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from" them?

Again, I'm curious what you guys think about this topic. I would like to keep this thread civil. Thanks in advance.

 

[JamesL]

In fairness, David was a believer when he sought God. And he sought deliverance from fear, and rescue from his enemies. Not conversion.

And the woman sought a physical healing, not conversion

But Acts 17, you have a point. Paul was on an evangelistic mission, speaking to men who were very religious, even having an altar to an unknown God.

 

[savedbymercy]

None by Nature Seeks God !

Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So with that as an established fact of scripture, how do we explain portions of scripture that seem to indicate that men do seek after the True God ?

Its really quite simple, those who actually do seek after the True God are not in nature, they have been born again, that is the driving impulse in them that seeks after the True God !

Man by nature has minds that are enmity against God, not seeking for Him Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

All mens minds by nature are carnal and so its enmity AGAINST GOD !

 

[convicted1]

Look at it like this, Brother Tony. I went to a wake last week. I got there kinda early and there was a big crowd. After the service, I was speaking to a wonderful married couple who belonged to a local FWB church. The wake was at a funeral home about 50-55 miles from my house. It was a Godly and goodly talk. They made mention that the crowd shrank about the time services started.

That's what I tell people all the time. Those people left of their own accord, no one forced them to leave. Unless God intercedes on their behalf, they get 'the heck outta dodge' every time...

 

[convicted1]

In the Acts 17 passage, Paul stated 'In Him we live, move and have our being'...that's not referring to the lost. In verse 30, God has commanded 'all men everywhere to repent'. Seeing repentance is a gift of God, and His gifts and calling are without repentance, then how does this jive with all peoples, even those who died never knowing Jesus existed, how can they repent?

 

[savedbymercy]

In the Acts 17 passage, Paul stated 'In Him we live, move and have our being'...that's not referring to the lost. In verse 30, God has commanded 'all men everywhere to repent'. Seeing repentance is a gift of God, and His gifts and calling are without repentance, then how does this jive with all peoples, even those who died never knowing Jesus existed, how can they repent?

That Command is also not to the Lost ! Its restricted to the saved, born again men everywhere, Paul was just Preaching Repentance in Christ's Name as the Apostles had been commissioned Lk 24:46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations[everywhere], beginning at Jerusalem.

The Only Ones commanded to repent are the ones having remission of sins, who are already Justified before God because of Christ's Death and Resurrection Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The Command[To Repent] is for those whom the Resurrection of Christ evidenced their Justification !

Now I hope you understand what I am stating here !

 

[convicted1]

That Command is also not to the Lost ! Its restricted to the saved, born again men everywhere, Paul was just Preaching Repentance in Christ's Name as the Apostles had been commissioned Lk 24:46-47

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations[everywhere], beginning at Jerusalem.

The Only Ones commanded to repent are the ones having remission of sins, who are already Justified before God because of Christ's Death and Resurrection Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The Command[To Repent] is for those whom the Resurrection of Christ evidenced their Justification !

Now I hope you understand what I am stating here !

That's what I said, just not in so many words.

 

[BobRyan]

I know many supports of Calvinism turn to Romans 3:10-12 to prove Total Depravity:


But all the way back in the time of David, we see the psalmist writing the following:

This scripture reveals a man capable of seeking after God, and crying out to God.

Jumping forward to the Gospels, we see a very specific episode found in all four Gospels.



In each of these gospel stories, we see a woman who made the choice to seek after Jesus for healing, believing that Jesus could heal her. The understanding that I have of Total Depravity, per the information gleaned from speaking to Calvinists, would render this woman incapable of deciding within herself to seek after Jesus. Total Depravity would stop the psalmist from seeking after God, and crying out to God.

While that is true - how do you know that their "ability to seek after God" is not a supernatural result of God "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 and God "drawing all men unto Him" John 12:32??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

That's what I said, just not in so many words.

Ok ! I added my comments, i hope that is ok ?

 

[convicted1]

Ok ! I added my comments, i hope that is ok ?

Saw'right....

Why all the (!!!)?

 

[savedbymercy]

While that is true - how do you know that their "ability to seek after God" is not a supernatural result of God "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 and God "drawing all men unto Him" John 12:32??

in Christ,

Bob

It is Supernatural, the New Birth ! The World is the Church, its not the Lost World, its the Saved World !

You cannot change the fact that those by nature do not seek God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Now if its Supernatural, then thats different, it goes beyond the natural ! The very word supernatural means:

of, pertaining to, or caused by forces separate from or superior to what are considered natural laws.

Now are you suggesting that even if God Supernaturally Draws men to Christ, that they still dont come to Him ? Yes or No !

 

[BobRyan]

While that is true - how do you know that their "ability to seek after God" is not a supernatural result of God "convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 and God "drawing all men unto Him" John 12:32??

It is Supernatural, the New Birth !

All 3 actions are supernatural. Your error is that you "assume" God cannot do the first two supernatural events without also having to cause the New Birth.

It is an assumption on your part that has never been demonstrated to be true - in fact the scriptures listed about God drawing lost prove your assumption to be flawed.

The World is the Church

Just not in the actual Bible.

Now if its Supernatural, then thats different, it goes beyond the natural !

Agreed - the drawing of ALL -- is beyond the natural.

Now are you suggesting that even if God Supernaturally Draws men to Christ, that they still dont come to Him ? Yes or No !

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

The answer in the actual Bible is obviously yes.

 

[savedbymercy]

br

All 3 actions are supernatural. Your error is that you "assume" God cannot do the first two supernatural events without also having to cause the New Birth.

Now you lying on me !

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

The answer in the actual Bible is obviously yes.

Thats just blasphemy, to suggest man can resist the Supernatural Power of God, you are actually claiming that the natural power of man is more powerful than the Suprnatural Power of God, again Blasphemy !

He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

Where does that verse say that the natural power of man is more powerful than the Supernatural Power of God ? Your statement is Blasphemous ! In fact, I have nothing else to say to such a Blasphemous person like yourself !

 

[Iconoclast]

If man is completely incapable of seeking after God, then why would Paul, seemingly preaching in the Spirit, say that men should "seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from" them?

Paul is letting them know God is everywhere present, they are responsible to seek Him, judgment is coming.
Jesus commented on mans ability , and mans willingness to come-

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

 

[savedbymercy]

If man is completely incapable of seeking after God, then why would Paul, seemingly preaching in the Spirit, say that men should "seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from" them?

Paul is not speaking of the natural man to seek after God. Paul knows that the carnal natural man is emnity towards God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Therefore Pauls appeal is to the Spiritually minded by New Birth ! In fact its to the Offspring of God Acts 17:28-29

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Now carnal men in the flesh are not the Offspring of God !

 

[PreachTony]

Thats just blasphemy, to suggest man can resist the Supernatural Power of God, you are actually claiming that the natural power of man is more powerful than the Suprnatural Power of God, again Blasphemy !

If man is completely powerless to resist the Spirit of God, then why was the scripture given to us that says "Quench not the Spirit"?

 

[PreachTony]

Paul is letting them know God is everywhere present, they are responsible to seek Him, judgment is coming.
Jesus commented on mans ability , and mans willingness to come-

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

Fair points, Brother Icon, but as we've discussed before, that very scripture (Matthew 23) carried with it the implication that men had the choice to come to God, but they were not willing to. The Bible shows us examples of men coming to God, even though the world around them was filled with depravity and villainy.

 

[Sapper Woody]

My own testimony goes completely contrary to Calvinism, in my opinion, and is why I can never subscribe to it.



I was lost and on my way to hell. Yet i thought I was ok. I grew up in church, and knew all the verses about salvation and repentance. I had just never applied it to my own life. I felt the conviction of the HS everytime a sermon on hell was preached. But my pride was in the way.



I served in my church. I sang in the choir, I had a bus route, I went soul winning. I led dozens of people to the Lord; all while lost myself. Finally, one service I'd had enough running, and accepted Christ as my savior. He didn't force Himself on me. He had patience to keep drawing me until I came to Him.

 

[OldRegular]

I served in my church. I sang in the choir, I had a bus route, I went soul winning. I led dozens of people to the Lord; all while lost myself. Finally, one service I'd had enough running, and accepted Christ as my savior. He didn't force Himself on me. He had patience to keep drawing me until I came to Him.

Why did Jesus Christ keep drawing you? You obviously were resisting/rebelling! Why doesn't He draw ALL as He drew you? That is the question!

 

[Sapper Woody]

Why did Jesus Christ keep drawing you? You obviously were resisting/rebelling! Why doesn't He draw ALL as He drew you? That is the question!

I believe He does. At one point in every person's life, there will be a chance to get saved, where He draws them. If they refuse too long, He doesn't draw anymore; hence "no man can come unless he is drawn" (paraphrase). A person can't just decide to be saved. There has to be a drawing. But all men will get drawn. It doesn't mean only some can get saved. It means that you can't just decide to at anytime.



Where it gets hairy is those who never hear the gospel. I believe that God, in His foreknowledge, knows who would respond positively, and makes sure that those people get a chance.



But, to use your words, I resisted Him. For almost 18 years. So, there goes irresistible grace. I tried to please Him as a lost man, and understood salvation for years, but pride kept me from accepting Him. So there goes total inability.