Preacher Ron
New Member
When you die, you can lay there asleep with six feet of dirt in your face if you want to. But as soon as I die, I'm gone to go be with the Lord, just like the bible says.
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Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)
- Thread starter wopik
- Start date
BenW
If one believes in eternal consciousness, then you put the comma where it makes sense to you -- before the word "today".
Since Jesus' soul [psuche] was not left in hell (hades, the grave) - when He died, Acts 2:31, that must be where Jesus went when He died.
There were no commas in the New Testament Greek.
If one believes in eternal consciousness, then you put the comma where it makes sense to you -- before the word "today".
Since Jesus' soul [psuche] was not left in hell (hades, the grave) - when He died, Acts 2:31, that must be where Jesus went when He died.
Webber, don't bother with trying to send your diagram of a timeline. I'm not interested. MY God is not "outside a timeline" -- He always has been and always will be in control of the universe and all those therein. By the way, SOUL SLEEP is Seventh Day Adventist doctrine; you should start a discussion with their home page. This is supposed to be a "Baptist Only" Board -- as shown at the top of this page. I think it's time someone closed this forum. Bottom line: "THE BIBLE SAYS IT, I BELIEVE IT, THAT SETTLES IT"
Proof of My Belief: When my mother died, a tear dropped from her eyes and we all said in unison "She's just seen Jesus!" (Absent from the body, present with the Lord!) Amen! Selah!
Proof of My Belief: When my mother died, a tear dropped from her eyes and we all said in unison "She's just seen Jesus!" (Absent from the body, present with the Lord!) Amen! Selah!
Absolutely correct!
"For I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.” ---Phillipians 1:23-24 NAS / 2Timothy 4:6-8 .
Notice Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.
There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately.
To die is gain. In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION.
Jacob Webber
New Member
Saran
God is everywhere at the same time but He is not controled by time and sits outside of time in Heaven. He controls everything what I am saying i that when we die as Christians we are sent straight to God to be absent in death is to be present with God. I am showing with the time lien that when we die we go right to the First Resurrection to Christ.
God is everywhere at the same time but He is not controled by time and sits outside of time in Heaven. He controls everything what I am saying i that when we die as Christians we are sent straight to God to be absent in death is to be present with God. I am showing with the time lien that when we die we go right to the First Resurrection to Christ.
Jacob Webber
New Member
It may appear as thou we have been buried in our bodies for years but because we drop out of time and are at that moment at the the First Resurrection there is no sleep we go straight to Christ at the First Resurrection.
You don't mean heaven, do you ?
Because the dead in Christ and those yet alive will meet Jesus in the air, in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord - 1 Thess. 4:16-17.
Where's that ?
Then He will bring us all back to Earth - "This same Jesus....shall so come in like manner...then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount call Olivet..." - Acts 1:11-12 / Zech. 14:4).
His feet shall stand that day upon the mount of Olives....and all the saints with you - Zechariah 14: 4-5).
Jacob Webber
New Member
(You don't mean heaven, do you ?)
We will be with Christ wether we are in Heaven for a span or in the Air for a span of time after the Wrath of God is poured out on the Earth we will return.
We will be with Christ wether we are in Heaven for a span or in the Air for a span of time after the Wrath of God is poured out on the Earth we will return.
GODzThunder
New Member
like Jesus said to the theif on the cross. This day you will be with me in paradise. Sounds a little unfair to say a thief gets a last minute ticket into heaven and all we the good christians get is a long sleep until the return of the lord. Actually sounds contradictory to the truth, probably because soul sleep is a false heresay
There were no commas in the New Testament Greek.
If one believes in eternal consciousness, then you put the comma where it makes sense to you -- before the word "today".
Since Jesus' soul [psuche] was not left in hell (hades, the grave) - when He died, Acts 2:31, that must be where Jesus went when He died. </font>[/QUOTE]A popular teaching amongst the cults, yet look a little further and you will see that New Testament Greek has grammer like any other language, albeit different. Considering this, you will see that it is meant to have the comma there becasue there is a pause there. This comes from my own study and I have outright asked several people that are proficent in NT Greek. Ask the people that are teaching you about the no commas, where is there qualification to comment on NT Greek? In a number of cases when you dig down to it, they will tell you that it is not neccessary to go to Bible College and that Bible Colleges are used by the devil etc etc. The truth being is that in the face of genuine scholarship they get threatend.
Again not only is the words translated correctly in the Bible, but the grammer also. Checked and Rechecked continually. If there way no pause there it would be reflected in the translation.
Psalm 146:4 states that when the ruach leaves us, we go back to the ground, and our thoughts perish.
This does not say that just our thoughts in our body perish, and that we continue to have thoughts in a spirit form. It plainly says that our thoughts perish -- period. This agrees with the plain statement of Ecclesiastes 9:5.
nowhere does the Bible teach or imply that the ruach of human beings is a spirit being or consciousness that can be separated from the body; for the Bible does not teach that we are hybrids, part human and part spirit beings.
"the ruach shall return to God who gave it," cannot mean a spirit being or some consciousness that lives on in conscious existence after the death of the body. Such a thought has to be added to the scripture.
according to Ecclesiastes 12:7, our bodies return to their native dust (Genesis 3:19), and our life force or energy reverts to its Giver, God, in the sense that He takes it from us and keeps it in His power for whatever final disposal of it He will be pleased to make at the Judgment Day.
In Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be seen the reversal of the original creation process as described in Genesis 2:7.
http://reslight.addr.com/thespirit.html
This does not say that just our thoughts in our body perish, and that we continue to have thoughts in a spirit form. It plainly says that our thoughts perish -- period. This agrees with the plain statement of Ecclesiastes 9:5.
nowhere does the Bible teach or imply that the ruach of human beings is a spirit being or consciousness that can be separated from the body; for the Bible does not teach that we are hybrids, part human and part spirit beings.
"the ruach shall return to God who gave it," cannot mean a spirit being or some consciousness that lives on in conscious existence after the death of the body. Such a thought has to be added to the scripture.
according to Ecclesiastes 12:7, our bodies return to their native dust (Genesis 3:19), and our life force or energy reverts to its Giver, God, in the sense that He takes it from us and keeps it in His power for whatever final disposal of it He will be pleased to make at the Judgment Day.
In Ecclesiastes 12:7 can be seen the reversal of the original creation process as described in Genesis 2:7.
http://reslight.addr.com/thespirit.html
GODzThunder
New Member
you are REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY reading in between the lines of psalm 146 to come to that conclusion.
the first glance look as well as deep study say that psalm 146 says that a man will die, his body will go to the ground and his thoughts shall perish with time (meaning that earthly wisdom will not stand for eternity).
I see no hint of soul sleep here. your translation must be a very peculiar one indeed if you get soul sleep from that verse.
the first glance look as well as deep study say that psalm 146 says that a man will die, his body will go to the ground and his thoughts shall perish with time (meaning that earthly wisdom will not stand for eternity).
I see no hint of soul sleep here. your translation must be a very peculiar one indeed if you get soul sleep from that verse.
The spirit of Samuel spoke to Saul in 1 Samuel 28.
Note especially verses 15 and 16
And Samuel said to Saul…
Then said Samuel…
The Word of God plainly says Samuel (dead) spoke to Saul.
Some try to add to the Word of God by saying this was not Samuel but a demon plainly contradicting what the Word of God says. It says "Samuel" not a "demon".
HankD
Note especially verses 15 and 16
And Samuel said to Saul…
Then said Samuel…
The Word of God plainly says Samuel (dead) spoke to Saul.
Some try to add to the Word of God by saying this was not Samuel but a demon plainly contradicting what the Word of God says. It says "Samuel" not a "demon".
HankD
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
GODzThunder,
Wopik likes to use OT verses for NT theology. You know, the old SDA/JW/Worldwide COG trick?
Too bad he is unwilling to actually listen to what Jesus and Paul are saying in the NT, but instead he keeps trying to sift gravel through a dust screen. While the OT does point forward to what was to come, one cannot take the poetic language of the OT and cram NT theology into it.
In Christ,
Trotter
Wopik likes to use OT verses for NT theology. You know, the old SDA/JW/Worldwide COG trick?
Too bad he is unwilling to actually listen to what Jesus and Paul are saying in the NT, but instead he keeps trying to sift gravel through a dust screen. While the OT does point forward to what was to come, one cannot take the poetic language of the OT and cram NT theology into it.
In Christ,
Trotter
Jacob Webber
New Member
Here is a link to the Time Line I was talking about any input will be welcomed. I have based to Time line also on A Post Trib Rapture It is still in the workings so anything you have to offer please do so. And if a Mod decside the link does not need to be here than the Mod should remove it.
http://www.geocities.com/mojowebber/timeline2.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mojowebber/timeline2.htm
Trotter
Jesus said the same thing in a NT parable:
Resigned, at last, to his fate, the Rich Man begs Abraham to send someone to his father's house, to warn his five brothers--". . . lest they also come into this place of torment" (verse 28).
Abraham then says, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them".
Amazing. Here, even in a New Testament parable of Jesus Christ, Christ characterizes Abraham as saying, in the future, to the rich man that there is sufficient knowledge and information in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand the plan of salvation.
He strongly insists that anyone who will truly listen to "Moses and the prophets" can come into possession of saving knowledge
Paul told Timothy that the OT was able to make him "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2Tim 3: 15).
Jesus said the same thing in a NT parable:
Resigned, at last, to his fate, the Rich Man begs Abraham to send someone to his father's house, to warn his five brothers--". . . lest they also come into this place of torment" (verse 28).
Abraham then says, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them".
Amazing. Here, even in a New Testament parable of Jesus Christ, Christ characterizes Abraham as saying, in the future, to the rich man that there is sufficient knowledge and information in the OLD TESTAMENT to understand the plan of salvation.
He strongly insists that anyone who will truly listen to "Moses and the prophets" can come into possession of saving knowledge
Yes a New Testament parable wopik, but before the crucifixion, before the Great Commission, before the Book of Acts and before the completion of the canon of Scripture.
2 Timothy 3:15
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
How are the OT Scriptures able to make one wise unto salvation? "through faith which is in Jesus Christ". Put the OT prophecies of Christ together with their NT fulfillments in the Gospels and then comes salvation in this age.
HankD
This is a post-crucifixion Scripture written by an apostle.
2 Timothy 3:15
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
How are the OT Scriptures able to make one wise unto salvation? "through faith which is in Jesus Christ". Put the OT prophecies of Christ together with their NT fulfillments in the Gospels and then comes salvation in this age.
HankD
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Thanks, Hank. You took the words right out of my mouth,er...fingers.
Wopik, you cannot take poetic, figurative language and hang doctrine on it. Your tenacity for hardheadedness is remarkable...are you sure your not kin to my family?
The Psalms are chocked full of verses talking about destroying enemies, cutting off transgressors. Do you take these at face value also?
How about when David said, "Psa 6:6 I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears." Did David cry so much that he had to break out his waterwings?
The OT points forward to the coming of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He bought upon Calvary. Or do you not get it?
In Christ,
Trotter
Wopik, you cannot take poetic, figurative language and hang doctrine on it. Your tenacity for hardheadedness is remarkable...are you sure your not kin to my family?
The Psalms are chocked full of verses talking about destroying enemies, cutting off transgressors. Do you take these at face value also?
How about when David said, "Psa 6:6 I am weary with my groaning; all the night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears." Did David cry so much that he had to break out his waterwings?
The OT points forward to the coming of Jesus Christ and the salvation that He bought upon Calvary. Or do you not get it?
In Christ,
Trotter