SOULS DIE

[wopik]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

What do you do with that verse if the dead in Christ are not in heaven right now?

1Thes 4:16

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Who descends from heaven? Jesus ALONE!


The DEAD in Christ RISE (out of their graves?).


Then the living (in Christ) and the newly resurrected (in Christ) rise TOGETHER to meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air (birds can fly that high)

......then Jesus brings everyone back to this Earth, "and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you" (Zech. 14:5)


"His feet shall stand upon the Mt. of Olives" - Zech. 14:4 / Acts 1.

......And the LORD shall be king over all the Earth (Zech. 14:9).


"and they (the redeemed) shall reign ON THE EARTH" - Rev. 5:10.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

you do err not knowing the scriptures...

Zech. 14 is referring to the second coming.

But Christ brings back the (living) souls to be reunited with the dead (sleeping) bodies at the time of the rapture.

Two different occasions. Try again.

 

[wopik]

because I don't believe in soul sleep

JFox1,


What do you do with verses like:


"...and many of them that SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life...." -- Dan. 12:2


"Lazarus SLEEPS" - Jesus.


"even them also which SLEEP in Jesus...." 1Thess.


How do you deal with verses like this ?

 

[wopik]

But Christ brings back the (living) souls to be reunited with the dead (sleeping) bodies

Gen (KJV)
2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Gen (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
2:7

Then the Lord God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

 

[Claudia_T]

Just so you know, this is referring to demonic spiirits in the Roman Catholic Church and all her "daughter" churches who knowingly or unknowingly are participating with her in spiritualism:

Rv:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


which side will YOU be on in this great controversy between good and evil?

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Rv:17:2: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Rv:17:4: And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rv:18:3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Rv:18:4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by wopik:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

What do you do with that verse if the dead in Christ are not in heaven right now?
1Thes 4:16

It quite obviously refers to the physical body as it refers to the resurrection; not the spirit. The spirit is eternal. It never dies. Are you saying that the Old Testament spirits as David, Abraham, Jacob, etc. are not in Heaven. Then you contradict the very words of Jesus. For it was Jesus that said:

Matthew 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Who descends from heaven? Jesus ALONE!

Of course.

The DEAD in Christ RISE (out of their graves?).

Their bodies rise; their bodies rise. Repetition is the mother of learning. Their bodies rise. It is speaking of the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the physical body never to the spirit. There is no spirit resurrection in spite of what the J.W.'s claim.

Then the living (in Christ) and the newly resurrected (in Christ) rise TOGETHER to meet Jesus in the clouds, in the air (birds can fly that high)

Your confused. What does the verse say:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.
This is the rapture. It is the time when the resurrection of the body occurs both to them that are dead, and them that are alive. Obviously if one is alive their body at once will be glorified, just as those who had been dead for years before will be given glorified bodies. This is the resurrection. It is referring to the body. Paul is not discussing the spirit here. He is keeping things simple answering some questions that the Thessalonians had about what the fate of those who had died before them would be at the time of the Second Coming or rapture.

......then Jesus brings everyone back to this Earth, "and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you" (Zech. 14:5)

This happens only after the Tribulation, a period of seven years. Revelation 19 says that Christ comes with his saints to the earth. This is an event that happens after seven years of God's wrath being poured out upon the earth.

"His feet shall stand upon the Mt. of Olives" - Zech. 14:4 / Acts 1.

......And the LORD shall be king over all the Earth (Zech. 14:9).

"and they (the redeemed) shall reign ON THE EARTH" - Rev. 5:10.

Yes, all these Scriptures begin the Millennial reign of Christ after the Tribulation. They have nothing to do with the Tribulation, the rapture, or the first resurrection. The second resurrection takes place after the Millennial Kingdom. At that time all the unsaved will be sentenced for their final time and will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer eternal torment day and night forever and ever (Rev.20:10-15)
DHK

 

[Claudia_T]

Hope nobody minds, Im posting this from an article I wrote on my website:


THE JESUITS AND PANTHEISM


In order to show that Ignatius Loyola, Founder of the Roman Catholic Jesuit's Order was indeed involved in Witchcraft as we discussed in the previous article, I will tell you some of his beliefs, one of which was PANTHEISM, which is a form of Witchcraft and Spiritualism.

Ignatius has a certain obsession about trying to find "God" in everything around him. In fact, Malachi Martin, former Jesuit said, when speaking about the Order of the Jesuits:


"Each companion in the Society (of Jesus) was burning and busy to find every trace of God and God's handiwork throughout the cosmos where he, God the Workman, the deus faber of the midevil mystics, was ever at work creating... Of course, I saw God at work in all things---vivifying, beautifying, freshening, and quickening human beings and all of nature into life-nourishing cycles. Throughout, I thus saw God in all things. But more than that, I strove with my spirit and with my whole being to arrive at the summit of love where I could see all things in God; see them rather as manifestations of His power and beauty, as rays of light descending from the sun, as streams of water leaping from the spring well. Nothing in creation could escape this viewpoint--- the fearful symmetry of the tiger, the ridiculous curl to a piglet's tail, perfumes, colors, tastes, the audible silence settled on mountaintops, the patterns traced by a dancer, the cries of children at play, the songs of birds, the toils of the least of insects. Seeing all things in God, with their being and their beauty, the scales would fall away from my fleshbound eyes. Quietly, unresistingly, coherantly all would be absorbed in Him, for me; and the dust and ashes of their mortality and of my own mortality would be consumed in the stainless luster of His eternal existence and beauty... Ignatius (loyola) presumed that every Jesuit would have this same perpetual preoccupation with finding God in all things." -Malachi Martin, The Jesuits, pg. 206.207
We need to understand that the first principle of the Catholic Faith is that:


"...the natural world is a sign of God, not merely because God created it as good, but because God, somehow actutally is IN it... The Catholic Religious imagination says that God lurks in every place." -How to Save the Catholic Church, Andrew Greeley (a Roman Catholic Priest), pg. 40,43
Just like the Baal Worshippers of old, who saw "God" in the trees, in the grass, in the sun and in the rocks... they too believed that God resided in all things. This was symbolized by their god, Baal, sometimes known as "Pan" (which is where the word pan-theism came from).

The true Catholic mind sees God is all of nature:


"...in the sticks and stones, the sky and the stars, the caves, the dances, in conception, birth, growth, and death... God is still there- not totally encompassed by these materialities but nonetheless totally present in and among them." -How to Save the Catholic Church, Andrew Greeley, pg. 48


THE SPIRITUAL EXERCISES OF IGNATIUS LOYOLA

As Ignatius Loyola matured, he loved to spend many hours studying books about the various dead saints. In fact, he loved to try to find ways to be able to communicate with these dead saints- which of course is Spiritualism! During the years of 1525-1528 he put into writing his new spiritual outlook on life, and called these writings The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola.

Because Ignatius was a member of the Illuminati... a Witch, he would do the purification rituals, meditation and fasting just as the witches do, before communicating with Satan and the demons. Only, Ignatius claimed he was doing it in preparation to converse with the "Dead Saints". The Illuminati taught that living a life of purity and service would open their so-called inner senses so that they would obtain spiritual sight or clairvoyance, known as the third eye, become seers, and be able to converse with angels and dead saints. (see Encyclopedia Americana, 1947, pg. 698)

New Agers and Witches, when experiencing "cosmic consciousness" (becoming one with the All) sometimes report weightlessness during this process and levitate off of the ground. In fact, during the big Spiritualism craze of times past, people would claim to levitate furniture off the floor when contacting "the Spirits"! Well, Ignatius Loyola also experienced levitation while practicing his Spiritual Exercises:


"Loyola developed his 'spiritual exercises' to bring one to spiritual perfection. Through systematic meditation, prayer, contemplation, visualization, and illumination, Loyola would go into a trance and ecstasy. He was even seen to levitate off the floor, as have many Jesuits completely under satanic power." -Chick Publications, The Force
Ignatius Loyola desired to use mysticism to actually encounter "God" or "Christ" in person, says ex-Jesuit Malachi Martin in his book, The Jesuits, pg 155. Martin tells how Ignatius supposedly ascended into the third heaven in an out of body experience to participate in the most hidden secrets of divinity that there are! There, supposedly, Ignatius was introduced to a bodiless spirit, which was "God".

Now just in case you haven't realized this by now, let me spell it out for you! ...all Ignatius Loyola had done was to take the practices of Witchcraft and put a "Christian" cloak over them! These things in reality were about as far from God as you can get, and in fact were just ancient methods used by Witches to contact demons and even Satan himself!

 

[Claudia_T]

Let me just tell ya something else to that you need to think about...

if Martin Luther said that "Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute"... then how can it be that the dead are in the grave and wake up and it will seem as if they were asleep only for a second... while at the same time they were all along conscience for thousands of years in heaven???

I mean, come on now...

We have to be logical. The GREEKS held to the theory of cosmic dualism, the teaching that man had duel natures.

The Great Controversy, page 549

[ March 18, 2006, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Let me tell you something you need to know, Claudia T.

Hell is real. Hell is eternal. Man who rejects Christ will burn forever in the lake of fire. There is no soul sleep. It has been proven time and time again by scripture.

Oh, and one more thing...

Ellen G. White is deceiving many.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Let me just tell ya something else to that you need to think about...

if Martin Luther said that "Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute"... then how can it be that the dead are in the grave and wake up and it will seem as if they were asleep only for a second... while at the same time they were all along conscience for thousands of years in heaven???

I mean, come on now...

We have to be logical. The GREEKS held to the theory of cosmic dualism, the teaching that man had duel natures.

So who is quoting from the Greeks.
We neither quote from the Greek philosophers nor from Ellen G. White.
The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.

 

[wopik]

DHK

The spirit is eternal

Eccl.
12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.


In this whole discussion, I talk about the SOUL (nephesh, Hebrew) and SOUL (psuche, Greek).


My posts have not brought up the SPIRIT (RUAH, Hebrew -- PNEUMA, Greek).


But I agree with Eccl. 12:7 --

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Bible says Christ will bring the dead with Him in 1 Thes. 4:14. I am still waiting for Claudia's misinterp... er, interpretation of that verse.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

wopik,

ya never did address the 1 point and 3 questions I asked you.

 

[wopik]

what were they again quickly. I'm not a rapture believer. I don't even go to that mess.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1. David did not say 'The dead know nothing' That was Solomon.

2. How do you figure the rich man had been dead for thousands of years? The Bible makes no mention of a period of time passing.

3. The rich man lifted his eyes in hell, in torment and could not leave there. If that was his resurrection (the resurrection of the wicked as told in Revelation), he would have been brought out to stand before the Great White Throne for judgment. He was not, so it was not the resurrection as you surmise.

4. What church do you attend?

 

[wopik]

1. David did not say 'The dead know nothing' That was Solomon.

OK, so?

2. How do you figure the rich man had been dead for thousands of years? The Bible makes no mention of a period of time passing.

The Bible tells us that only God has immortality (1Tim. 6:16), so the Rich Man could not be "alive" after death. The word "immortality" is used only in five places in the Bible: Romans 2:7; 1Cor. 15:53, 54; 1Tim. 6:16; 2Tim. 1:10.

In each case, immortality is something that is brought to light, that must be obtained, that God only has, and in no case is something man already possesses.

3. The rich man lifted his eyes in hell, in torment .....

The "hell" this Rich Man was in was his GRAVE (hell, hades), not hell (gehenna fire).

You do know that Three different Greek words are all translated "hell" in English.


He was in torment (mental torment) and ONLY NEEDED A DROP OF WATER FROM SOMEONE'S FINGER to cool his TONGUE.

Haven't you ever been so scared that your mouth went DRY. The Rich Man knew where he was headed: to the lake of fire, to be burned up into so much ASH.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

you did not answer the 1st question.
you answered the 2nd with a foolish answer
you did not answer the 3rd question.

Why are you avoiding to answer the questions truthfully?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by wopik:
DHK

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The spirit is eternal

Eccl.
12:7
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.


In this whole discussion, I talk about the SOUL (nephesh, Hebrew) and SOUL (psuche, Greek).


My posts have not brought up the SPIRIT (RUAH, Hebrew -- PNEUMA, Greek).
</font>[/QUOTE]And so you have been talking about the soul. That has been your downfall. You have limited yourself in this discussion. I have defined the word sould elsewhere in this conversation. I will do it again for you:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

5315. nephesh
Search for H5315 in KJVSL
vpn nephesh neh'-fesh

from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Numbers 19:22 And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.
--The soul shall be unclean. What does this refet to? According to the above defintions it refers to "a breathing cteature". It is not equated to the soul or spirit of a man but the actual body.

As noted before the definitions of "soul" are wide and varied, and only the context can determine the meaning. Don't try to put the definition of soul in a box just to fit your pre-determined theology. That is the mark of a cult.

Secondly, another mistake that you have made throughout this thread that has brought much confusion to the readers and posters is not realizing that man is a tri-partite being. Let's believe the Bible on this, alright?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This verse clearly teaches that man is a tri-partite being: body, soul and spirit. That means that there is a difference between the soul and the spirit. What is the difference? The sould will die along with body. It is part of the physical body. Now I say this speaking generally, realizing that sometimes soul and spirit are used interchangeably depending on the context, for soul has more than one meaning. One must always keep that in mind.
But generally speaking in the Bible here is what we find.
Soul is identified with the heart, bowels of mercy, the mind, the seat of affections, the place wehre our decisions are made, the conscious part of our being. That is the soul.

It is well-known that when a person is brain-dead he is declared dead. His body no longer functions. Machines can keep his body functioning, his brain somewhat active at a low level. But basically he is dead. Take him off the machines and he is dead. His soul dies with him. For his soul is his brain, the heart, the mind, the activie part of the body where all the decisions are made. If the brain is dead, so is the soul. Let's look at the Scripture:

Matthew 15:18-19 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
--Out of the heart proceeds all of these evil things. Out of your mind, you dwell on adulterous thoughts, and hatred, envy, covetousness, and all kinds of sin. It is in your mind. That is where the battle is. The soul is the mind.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--With the mind I serve the law of God.
It is not the spirit but the mind that I choose to serve the Lord. I make a conscientious decision to serve God or the devil. You choose. That is what Paul is saying. The soul is equated with the mind, the heart--every time.

On the other hand the spirit lives forever. It is eternal. It will live either in Hell or in Heaven for all eternity. It is not the soul (the brain), but the spirit that lives forever.
When the body dies it is the spirit of that body that separates from the body and goes to heaven or hell.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Spirit is separation. It is not annihilation. When the spirit is separated from the body it the body is pronounced dead and the spirit goes to hell or heaven to live in eternal existence either with God or separated from God. Death is separation.

Ephesians 2:1-2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
--Before salvation the spirit of the unsaved was dead, inoperable. It was separated from God by sin. After salvation, the spirit was made alive by the Holy Spirit. "You hath he made alive who were once dead. They were once dead because they were separated from God by sin. But now being saved because their sins were forgiven and they were born again by the spirit of God. Death is separaton. They were separated from God by their sin.

No matter which way you look at it, it is the spirit that lives on forever. It is the spirit that communicates with God. An animal was given a soul also. But an animal wasn't made in the image and likeness of God. It was man that was man that was made in the image and likeness of God. Why? He was given a spirit unlike an animal. A man is a spirit being presently clothed with an earthly tabernacle. Someday he will be clothed with his celestial tabernacle (at the resurrection). You may read all about our celestial bodies in 1Cor.15. We are indeed spirit beings. When we receive our resurrected bodies they will be for all eternity. When the unsaved will receive their resurrected bodies it will be for all eternity (at the Great White Throne Judgement).
There is eternal life, and there is eternal death--separation from God for all eternity in the lake of fire. God is a just God. It is a serious thing to reject the one who died for you.
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I would have to say the soul is the life force rather than the mind. Genesis 2:7 tells us after God formed man from the dust of the ground, He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul is the very breath of God. That which gives us life.

1 Kings 17:22 says that the child's soul returned into him. The soul there did not die with the child, but rather left the child. Elijah prayer for the soul to return.

 

[Claudia_T]

"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life.

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though

Claudia, Please present your views, not Ellen G. White's views.

[ March 18, 2006, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]