Sources: White House to Accept Torture Ban

[ASLANSPAL]

bio Paul Rieckhoff

Paul Rieckhoff is a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Executive Director and Founder of Operation Truth, America's first and largest Iraq Veterans group.

When Paul Rieckhoff returned from a tour of duty leading an infantry platoon in Baghdad in early 2004, he quickly became concerned with the way the war in Iraq was being portrayed in the media. There were many policy wonks and four-star Generals on TV, but no one to explain what the War was really like on the ground. As the one group of people that could communicate the “Ground Truth,” or the experience of war known only by those on the front lines, Veterans were notably (and counter-productively) absent from the public dialogue. Rieckhoff decided to remedy that problem.

Article

Today, Thanks to Sen. McCain, Our Troops are Safer

Today, thanks to Sen. John McCain and all those who endorsed his efforts to ban the use of torture by the military, life has become safer for our Troops in Iraq and elsewhere. Our Troops need this amendment as they struggle to win hearts and minds. It is vital that the world sees our government, unlike the Saddam regime, standing in firm opposition to the use of torture in any situation.


We are grateful for Sen. McCain’s persistence on this issue. He is a brave American who knows better than anyone the dangers of allowing torture to play any role in our military policy. Our enemies and allies alike now know that not only are the men and women of America’s military committed to victory in the struggle for a secure Iraq, but also that our military policy reflects the best qualities of this nation.

 

[DavidsonBap]

I am vocal towards anyone who violates human rights.

If the US is going to tout to be an example to the world it needs to adopt laws others have not...lead by example.

The deal is Curtis...to downplay the ordeal these people went through at Abu exemplifies the reason why this agreement needed to take place.

Accept it and move on.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by DavidsonBap:
I am vocal towards anyone who violates human rights.

Sure you are. I see it all the time.

 

[DavidsonBap]

Peace Curtis and God Bless

 

[Vasco]

I think I see what Bro Curtis is saying. People are up in arms about what the US may have done (or not done) in Guantanamo, but no one really speaks up for those in Fidel Castro's jails, on the same island just on the other side of the fence. People point to Pinochet regime, but ignore what Pol Pot did. When the US got caught up in Abu Ghriab, they seem to forget what Saddam did there. Yes, the US should be above those actions, but you need to look around before only calling the US bad.

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by Vasco:
I think I see what Bro Curtis is saying. People are up in arms about what the US may have done (or not done) in Guantanamo, but no one really speaks up for those in Fidel Castro's jails, on the same island just on the other side of the fence. People point to Pinochet regime, but ignore what Pol Pot did. When the US got caught up in Abu Ghriab, they seem to forget what Saddam did there. Yes, the US should be above those actions, but you need to look around before only calling the US bad.

We are responsible for what we do as a nation.

Cuba is being punished with embargoes and non-recognition.

What Saddam did was atrocious, but to be "better than Saddam" is not much to aspire to.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If I am captured and hidden away awaiting execution at the hands of terrorists, there had better be some serious torture going on to find out where I am.

I think much of this depends on the value we place on life. When people's lives are at stake, those who value life should do what is necessary to protect it. The momentary or temporary convenience of a terrorist is not an overriding concern. Nor should it be.

 

[poncho]

I think much of this depends on the value we place on life. When people's lives are at stake, those who value life should do what is necessary to protect it. The momentary or temporary convenience of a terrorist is not an overriding concern. Nor should it be.

Then shouldn't we start torturing the abortion dr's everytime a life is at stake at their hands?

 

[Pastor Larry]

I think we should put abortion drs in jail, and make them subject to the death penalty. They are not harboring information that could lead to saving a threatened life. They are taking lives.

 

[Daisy]

One of the guys died from hypothermia in a "chilly" room, naked.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If I am captured and hidden away awaiting execution at the hands of terrorists, there had better be some serious torture going on to find out where I am.

Would you really want people who may know nothing tortured or killed for your sake?

I think much of this depends on the value we place on life.

Whose life? Iraqi people have lives, too.

In any case, this life is just temporary. Sooner or later, bar Rapture, you're going to die.

When people's lives are at stake, those who value life should do what is necessary to protect it. The momentary or temporary convenience of a terrorist is not an overriding concern. Nor should it be.

It isn't only terrorists who have been tortured and killed. Convenience isn't a concern, I agree. However torture isn't necessary and it doesn't work very well for accurate information.

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techiniques Described

by Brian Ross & Richard Esposito, Nov 18 <snip>
According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch.

The techniques are controversial among experienced intelligence agency and military interrogators. Many feel that a confession obtained this way is an unreliable tool. Two experienced officers have told ABC that there is little to be gained by these techniques that could not be more effectively gained by a methodical, careful, psychologically based interrogation. According to a classified report prepared by the CIA Inspector General John Helgerwon and issued in 2004, the techniques "appeared to constitute cruel, and degrading treatment under the (Geneva) convention," the New York Times reported on Nov. 9, 2005.

It is "bad interrogation. I mean you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough," said former CIA officer Bob Baer.

<snip>

According to CIA sources, Ibn al Shaykh al Libbi, after two weeks of enhanced interrogation, made statements that were designed to tell the interrogators what they wanted to hear. Sources say Al Libbi had been subjected to each of the progressively harsher techniques in turn and finally broke after being water boarded and then left to stand naked in his cold cell overnight where he was doused with cold water at regular intervals.

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons. Sources tell ABC that it was later established that al Libbi had no knowledge of such training or weapons and fabricated the statements because he was terrified of further harsh treatment.

"This is the problem with using the waterboard. They get so desperate that they begin telling you what they think you want to hear," one source said.

<snip>

Source: ABCNews Investigative Report (linkie)

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If I am captured and hidden away awaiting execution at the hands of terrorists, there had better be some serious torture going on to find out where I am.

So, in your theroy, since it's ok to torture someone to help save one of our own, it must be ok for them to torture our guys and gals when they are caught? Right?

I mean it's all the price they pay for being at War? What is good/fair for us is equally good/fair to them?

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

I think much of this depends on the value we place on life. When people's lives are at stake, those who value life should do what is necessary to protect it. The momentary or temporary convenience of a terrorist is not an overriding concern. Nor should it be.

You were correct, and then you changed... It does very much depend on the value of life. EVERYONE's life. God's did not create classes, and subclasses when he created life. Remember, as evil as some people are, they are STILL God's creation.

I believe and value life, EVERYONE's life, and believe that torture is NOT the way a supposely Christian nation should act. Anyone that thinks torture is ok, then I believe they need to go back to read the Bible and do some praying.

Jamie

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by DavidsonBap:

Daisy

Human rights should be every Christians concern.
Torture is defined as causing excruciating physical or mental pain.

Still subjective. How do you propose we gather information from people in a timely fashion from captured enemy?

What happened at Abu was certainly torture.

Then we should be going after fraternities left and right for torturing their pledges.

Making someone do something demeaning or embarassing isn't "torture".

But we know some fundamentalists have a bad cause of Islamophobia so their views should be marginalized.

Do what?

I am a fundamentalist, oppose real torture, and I don't want these people interrogated because they are Islamic... I want the information because they are trying to kill us or our troops.

What is "Islamophobia" anyway? There are pretty good reasons to be suspicious and wary of Islam.

A short comparison of Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists might be helpful:

1) CF's preach that unrepentant sinners will go to hell. IF's hurry their arrival... and frequently make the path as painful as possible, ie. mutilating women who commit adultery.

2) CF's often offend people who do not wish to here their message. IF's deny basic rights to non-muslims and sometimes their lives.

3) CF's are sometimes a nuisance on NY streets because of their street preaching. IF's litter the streets of NYC with the rubble of the WTC.

4) CF's (in particular Baptists) are the group most responsible for the establishment clause. IF's have as a goal to spread their theocracy to every nation.

5) CF's disagree, preach against, and speak out against Islamic evangelists in the US... sometimes offending them with "hate speech". IF's kill and persecute Christian evangelists in their countries, ie Indonesia.

6) CF's argue over what constitutes a sufficient evidence of willful, voluntary faith. IF's force conversions sometimes by raping then marrying Christian girls, ie Egypt.

7) CF's run private schools to indoctrinate children in Christian values, charity, and grace. IF's run schools that foster terrorism and hatred of other people.

8) CF's wish to live peaceably and charitably with their neighbors while spreading the good news of forgiveness and redemption in Christ. IF's promote ideals that are consistent with terrorism.

Perhaps I think you have "Fundaphobia" and your views deserve to be marginalized since you have arbitrarily declared that someone who disagrees with you should be shut up.

 

[poncho]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I think we should put abortion drs in jail, and make them subject to the death penalty. They are not harboring information that could lead to saving a threatened life. They are taking lives.

That seems reasonable.

But how does one know who is a terrorist with this important life saving information or just an unlucky fellow in the wrong place at the wrong time, it's not all that inconceivable that more than a few of these captured terrorists may not be terrorists at all. Taking the governments word for it doesn't seem to come as easy to me as it does other folks I guess.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If I am captured and hidden away awaiting execution at the hands of terrorists, there had better be some serious torture going on to find out where I am.

So, in your theroy, since it's ok to torture someone to help save one of our own, it must be ok for them to torture our guys and gals when they are caught? Right?

I mean it's all the price they pay for being at War? What is good/fair for us is equally good/fair to them?</font>[/QUOTE] Demeaning someone isn't torture... electric shock is torture.

Stepping on the Koran isn't torture. Caning is torture.

Sleep deprivation is not torture. Cutting off appendages is torture.

Isolation is not torture. Breaking bones is torture.

Forcing someone to listen to rock music, biblical preaching, or political propaganda is not torture. Branding them is torture.

Offending someone isn't torture. Hurting their lil feelins ain't torture.

What went on at Abu Ghraib was wrong. It violated policy and apparently had little to nothing to do with gathering information... some of those soldiers were apparently perverse enough to think it was fun.

Punish them but don't handicap the gathering of info that might save thousands of lives.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Daisy:
Would you really want people who may know nothing tortured or killed for your sake?

[If they may know something, then yes, I want them interrogated to find out. But I said nothing about death.

Those life? Iraqi people have lives, too.

Yes indeed. We should do it for Iraqi lives as well. Strangely enouhg, I am one of hte few here who though Iraqi lives were valuable. Most here, it seems, said we should go into Iraq to stop the mass killings of Saddam Hussein because it wasn't our business. 4

In any case, this life is just temporary. Sooner or later, bar Rapture, you're going to die.

yes indeed.

It isn't only terrorists who have been tortured and killed.

No one is talking about killing here. We are talking about the use of certain interrogation techniques to gain information. And if it were you that were captured, Daisy, I would say the same thing. We should use whatever means necessary to gain your release.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
So, in your theroy, since it's ok to torture someone to help save one of our own, it must be ok for them to torture our guys and gals when they are caught? Right?

Bad comparison. "Our guys" aren't holding non-combatants under threat of death. If we were, then yes. Make sure when you enter this conversation and respond to me, that you talk about what I am talking about.

What is good/fair for us is equally good/fair to them?

Yes. Keep in mind that they are already doing it. They didn't need our permission.

You were correct, and then you changed...

What did I change?

It does very much depend on the value of life. EVERYONE's life. God's did not create classes, and subclasses when he created life. Remember, as evil as some people are, they are STILL God's creation.

yes indeed. You are correct. That is what I said.

I believe and value life, EVERYONE's life, and believe that torture is NOT the way a supposely Christian nation should act.

America is not really a Christian nation, but we aren't talking about torturing someone to death. You will have to have to conversation with someone who wants to defend that position. it isn't me.

Interrogation, including some acts that are harsh, are legitimate means to find out information to save lives. That has never been disputed in history to my knowledge.

We are not talking about torture or deprivation for the sake of torture or deprivation. That was what happened in Vietnam, in teh concentration camps in WWII, in Saddam's prisons, etc. That is a completely different conversation.

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JamieinNH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If I am captured and hidden away awaiting execution at the hands of terrorists, there had better be some serious torture going on to find out where I am.

So, in your theroy, since it's ok to torture someone to help save one of our own, it must be ok for them to torture our guys and gals when they are caught? Right?

I mean it's all the price they pay for being at War? What is good/fair for us is equally good/fair to them?</font>[/QUOTE] Demeaning someone isn't torture... electric shock is torture.

Stepping on the Koran isn't torture. Caning is torture.

Sleep deprivation is not torture. Cutting off appendages is torture.

Isolation is not torture. Breaking bones is torture.

Forcing someone to listen to rock music, biblical preaching, or political propaganda is not torture. Branding them is torture.

Offending someone isn't torture. Hurting their lil feelins ain't torture.

What went on at Abu Ghraib was wrong. It violated policy and apparently had little to nothing to do with gathering information... some of those soldiers were apparently perverse enough to think it was fun.

Punish them but don't handicap the gathering of info that might save thousands of lives. </font>[/QUOTE]Uhm.... Ok Scott.

I didn't say that they couldn't do the things you have listed. I didn't even say they couldn't use tactics to gain information.

I said they shouldn't torture people. Period. I agree with most of the list you have listed, and the way you have listed it.

Where I disagree is when it becomes unChristian like.

As a Christian, I am against anything that isn't Christ like. I know in modern day times, that is hard for us to do, but it's what is required.

I feel that some people go too far when we are "At War" and think that being unChirst like is ok because we're at war. Well it's not.

Nothing in the Bible, that I know of says that it's ok to be unChirst like as long as you are at War. I also know that a lot of people are NOT Christian, but that doesn't change the way I am suppose to live. I don't live for them, for soceity or anyone other than God.

Torture is Wrong. Period.

Jamie

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Would the Old Testament Israelis fit the description of a people who waged war in a Christlike manner ?

Their enemies usually weren't alive long enough to be tortured. And I'm betting the ones that were, wished they weren't.

 

[JamieinNH]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Bad comparison. "Our guys" aren't holding non-combatants under threat of death. If we were, then yes. Make sure when you enter this conversation and respond to me, that you talk about what I am talking about.

Oh, I am sorry, I didn't mean to question your Authority... Of course you're right... Not.

It's not the comparsion of who they are troturing vers who we are torturing. It's a matter that Torturing ANYONE is WRONG. Since we are suppose to be Christian, (We meaning members of this board), then we shouldn't condone torture. It isn't very Christian to torture someone. Read the comment to Scott, my definition of torture closely matches Scott, so I am not saying we can't gain information through tactics, we just shouldn't torture people to get it.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Yes. Keep in mind that they are already doing it. They didn't need our permission.

Yes, and how up in arms we get when they show them on TV, or a website. Why is it that we get so defensive when we see our own there, but we don't get defensive when the US does it?

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
What did I change?

You can't "value" human life, and be pro-Torture at the same time. It doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
America is not really a Christian nation, but we aren't talking about torturing someone to death. You will have to have to conversation with someone who wants to defend that position. it isn't me.

Again, I didn't say that I was talking about tortoring someone to death. Maybe you misread that.. It's ok, we all make mistakes.

I am talking about torture in general. Torure is wrong. Period.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Interrogation, including some acts that are harsh, are legitimate means to find out information to save lives. That has never been disputed in history to my knowledge. ?

Legitimate according to God? The Bible? Man? Who's rules are we suppose to be living by, I forget...

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

We are not talking about torture or deprivation for the sake of torture or deprivation. That was what happened in Vietnam, in teh concentration camps in WWII, in Saddam's prisons, etc. That is a completely different conversation.

Oh, so there is a difference in torture, depending on if it's for a reason or not? How many degrees of torture are there? At what point does it become ok? Where exactly is the line? Does God talk about this in the Bible anywhere? Can you help me with the verse? I can't seem to find it...

Thanks.

Jamie

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by JamieinNH:
Oh, I am sorry, I didn't mean to question your Authority...

It isn't a matter of questioning my authority. It is a matter of talking about what I was talking about. When you talk about what "they" are doing to "our guys/gals" you are talking about something completely different. What they are doing is wrong.

It's not the comparsion of who they are troturing vers who we are torturing. It's a matter that Torturing ANYONE is WRONG.

Perhaps we have a different definition of torture and a different view of what is going on. The comparison you made was invalid. You compared them torturing people for the sake of torture, to us interrogating people through certain means to gain information. If they are interrogating our soldiers through certain means to gain information, I have no problem with that. When we find them, we should kill them without mercy, but I have no problem with them doing that.

It isn't very Christian to torture someone. Read the comment to Scott, my definition of torture closely matches Scott, so I am not saying we can't gain information through tactics

Then you shouldn't be complaining about what I am saying because my position is basically what Scott's is. If you don't have a problem with it, why did you go after me?

Yes, and how up in arms we get when they show them on TV, or a website. Why is it that we get so defensive when we see our own there, but we don't get defensive when the US does it?

Several issues. First, the kind of torture going on. They are torturing for the sake of torturing; that is entirely different. Much of what went on at Abu Ghraib was wrong. That is different. Second, to show a captive on TV is wrong no matter who does it. There are families involved and common decency.

You can't "value" human life, and be pro-Torture at the same time. It doesn't work that way.[/qutoe]Who appointed you to make the rules?

Seriously, if someone has information about a murder that is about to take place, what means are legitimate to save that person's life? Apparently, you think that we should ask them and if they don't speak up then let it go. (I know, you are not that weak on it.) But seriously, where do we draw the line? At what point does some five year old kidnapped kid's life take precedence over a means used to gain information to free him?

Again, I didn't say that I was talking about tortoring someone to death. Maybe you misread that.. It's ok, we all make mistakes.

My bad. I was conflating Daisy's comments with yours.

Legitimate according to God? The Bible? Man? Who's rules are we suppose to be living by, I forget...

I am not aware of any place where God addressed this. He did give us principles about human life and the protection of it, even to the point of death.

Oh, so there is a difference in torture, depending on if it's for a reason or not? How many degrees of torture are there? At what point does it become ok? Where exactly is the line? Does God talk about this in the Bible anywhere? Can you help me with the verse? I can't seem to find it...

See my above point about God's commands on teh matter. National warfare is different than our individual lives. I think that is obvious.

Second, yes, it is clear that there are degrees of torture. Keeping the lights on all night is different than beating the soles of their feet. Playing loud rock music is different than caning them. Solitary confinement is different than breaking bones.

Where's the line? I am not sure. There is one to be sure.