Southern Baptists & the Pre-Trib Rapture

[Daniel David]

Although Ryrie makes that distinction, I don't. I prefer Old Covenant / New Covenant. Israel will be grafted into the New Covenant in the future.

Ryrie's point is that the church does not replace in any way the promises given to Israel. I agree whole heartedly. The promises were not conditional.

Besides, Paul was a dispensationalist. Far be it from me to disagree with Paul.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[church mouse guy]

That does not answer the question. Is Ryrie's point useless? Is the Church the spiritual heir of Abraham or not? If the Church is the spiritual heir of Abraham but not the physical heir, isn't Ryrie at that point failing to distinguish between Israel and the Church?

Is the first resurrection at the time when Satan is locked up for 1000 years or not?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Daniel David:
Grasshopper, when have I ever required the name of a preterist theologian? I don't care anything about preterism for the same reason I don't care about Mormon theology. I have no interest in studying error.

Further, it is the nondispies who try to argue from history. Dispensationalism was SYSTEMATIZED by Darby. However, the doctrine of premillenialism and imminence were already known.

The doctrine of premillenialism and imminence does not a dispensationalist make. It is the following error:

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.” </font>[/QUOTE]I do not follow Ryrie's logic on this point so maybe you can explain it to me. I distinguish Israel and the Church but I think that the Church is spiritual heir to Abraham nowadays. Therefore, I think that Jacob's troubles are also the Christian's troubles. Does Ryrie believe that the Christian is not spiritual heir to Abraham? </font>[/QUOTE]Ryrie in Dispensationalism, page 138 states "It is quite obvious that Christians are called the spiritual seed of Abraham [Galatians 3;29]. But that is so only because when one believes he or she is baptized [by the Holy Spirit] into Christ [Galatians 3:27], who is the seed of Abraham, thus making believers in Christ also Abraham's seed.

I would like to add at this point that one of the most contradictory teachings of dispensationalism is Chafers claim that "throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

The Book of Revelation, Chapters 20, 21 clearly show that this present heavens and earth will be replaced by a new heaven and earth and that God will dwell with His people on the new earth. That leaves no room for His earthly people, Israel.

Revelation 20:11
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 21:1-4
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[church mouse guy]

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to insist that Christians and Jews are to be kept always apart and then turn around and say that Christians are the heirs of Abraham. As Abraham's heirs, it would seem that Christians are heirs to the world problems of Abraham and his heirs as well as the eternal promise of heaven.

 

[Bro Tony]

quote:
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Originally posted by Grasshopper:

Find me a SBC pastor or theologian who believed what you do, pre-1800.

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Impossible! The SBC never existed until 1845. The south baptists seperated from the northern baptists over the issue of slavery.
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gb

 

[Daniel David]

Chafer is wrong about a great many things. He is hardly the dispensationalism poster boy. He is just the easiest point of attack for non-dispies.

I am a dispy and believe there is only one people of God. I wish that nonsensical objection would stop being brought up.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am not a dispy but the people in my neighborhood are often dipsos, if that counts.

Seriously, how do you deal with the first 7 verses of Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:1-7 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Chafer is wrong about a great many things. He is hardly the dispensationalism poster boy. He is just the easiest point of attack for non-dispies.

I am a dispy and believe there is only one people of God. I wish that nonsensical objection would stop being brought up.

Just shows how accurate dispensationalism is.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Dear Prophecynut,
Do I understand your thought correctly that the prophets always understood everything about thier prophecies?That seems to be what you are implying on an earlier entry in this thread.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Chafer is wrong about a great many things. He is hardly the dispensationalism poster boy. He is just the easiest point of attack for non-dispies.

I am a dispy and believe there is only one people of God. I wish that nonsensical objection would stop being brought up.

Yes but Ryrie endorses Chafers' definition of dispensationalism as I showed initially:

Dispensationalism teaches that an intrinsic and enduring distinction exists between Israel and the Church. “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” [Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism ] Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

Maybe you are not really a dispensationalist. the Apostle Paul certainly was not.

 

[prophecynut]

Dear Old Bill

Prophets of old probably understood most of their near term prophecies, but very little of the far off prophecies. Thanks for the question, sometimes I don't make myself clear.

 

[prophecynut]

Church Mouse Guy

May I offer this short commentary.

Verses 1-3

Satan is bound and exiled in the Abyss (bottomless pit) for a literal thousand years beginning with the return of Christ. After those years he will be "loosed a little season" to deceive the nations into destroying Jerusalem again (vs. 7-10), like the nations did previously at the onset of the Trib (Eze. 38). The exiling of Satan for a thousand years was prophesied by Jeremiah, 48:7,46; 49:3.

Verses 4-6

The thrones seen by John are the ones promised to the Church saints (Rev. 3:21), these thrones were occupied when they received glorified bodies at the rapture.

The second group of saints seen by John in heaaven are the SOULS of the Trib saints who were beheaded for their faith in Christ and refusal to take the mark or worship the Antichrist. At the Second Coming, OT saints and the martyred Trib saints will be resurrected to reign with Christ.

 

[Daniel David]

Ryrie and Chafer aren't the only dispensationalists people. Broaden your horizon a bit, because you are missing the point.

The real separation is between Old Covenant and New Covenant. Israel will be grafted into the New Covenant.

The promises of suffering and destruction were literally fulfilled with Israel. Why should the blessing not also be literally fulfilled with Israel?

 

[Paul33]

No, I don't think that's the real separation.

The Abrahamic-Davidic covenants are the covenants that are eternal.

The Mosaic Covenant (Law) and the New Covenant (Law written on our hearts) are administrative covenants.

The New Covenant replaces the Mosaic Covenant in how it administrates the promises of the Abrahamic-Davidic covenant.

Israelites (Jews) who believe in Messiah will be grafted back into the olive tree. They will partake of the promises of the Abrahamic-Davidic Covenant by means of the New Covenant. What Israel is grafted back into is the promises of the Abrahamic-Davidic Covenant.

 

[Daniel David]

Nope. The writer of Hebrews refers to the New Covenant as the eternal covenant.

The covenant with Abraham is fulfilled in Christ. The same is true with the Davidic Covenant.

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Church Mouse Guy

May I offer this short commentary.

Verses 1-3

Satan is bound and exiled in the Abyss (bottomless pit) for a literal thousand years beginning with the return of Christ. After those years he will be "loosed a little season" to deceive the nations into destroying Jerusalem again (vs. 7-10), like the nations did previously at the onset of the Trib (Eze. 38). The exiling of Satan for a thousand years was prophesied by Jeremiah, 48:7,46; 49:3.

Verses 4-6

The thrones seen by John are the ones promised to the Church saints (Rev. 3:21), these thrones were occupied when they received glorified bodies at the rapture.

The second group of saints seen by John in heaaven are the SOULS of the Trib saints who were beheaded for their faith in Christ and refusal to take the mark or worship the Antichrist. At the Second Coming, OT saints and the martyred Trib saints will be resurrected to reign with Christ.

How can you split the groups into two? Especially, when John says that this is the first resurrection?

 

[APuritanMindset]

Because you trust in your works and treasures, you will be captured also. Chemosh will go into exile with his priests and officials. (Jeremiah 48:7 HCSB)

Woe to you, Moab! The people of Chemosh have perished because your sons have been taken captive and your daughters have gone into captivity. (Jeremiah 48:46 HCSB)

Wail, Heshbon, for Ai is devastated; cry out, daughters of Rabbah! Clothe yourselves with sackcloth, and lament; run back and forth within your walls, because Milcom will go into exile together with his priests and officials. (Jeremiah 49:3 HCSB)

I have one question...how are these passages predicting the exile of Satan? They seem pretty specific to a specific kingdom and people at the time of the prophecy being made to me...

 

[Daniel David]

Who says those verses are about Satan?

 

[prophecynut]

Puritan & David

God has many names, Jesus has many names and Satan/Lucifer has many names. Satan accepts honor in whatever name we wish to call him; Baal, Moloch, Marduk, Venus, Odin, Krishna, Aphrodite, Ishtar, Zeus, AMon-Ra, Mithras, Ahura-Mazda, Dagon - male or female, it matters not.

Baal was the god of Phoencia and the Cananites (Lebanon and Syria), he was known to the Ammonites as Molech, the Moabites as Chemosh, and the Edomites as Dushara. The three ancient nations of Ammon, Moab and Edom make up present day Jordan. In the time of the end (Trib) the Antichrist from Syria will invade many countries including the "Beautiful Land" - "but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand" (Dn. 11:41).

The gods for the above nations surrounding Israel have interacting with His people for thousand of years. Because of their association with Israel, they are designated as the god/gods who is/are exiled in the OT.

 

[LadyEagle]

The Book of Revelation, Chapters 20, 21 clearly show that this present heavens and earth will be replaced by a new heaven and earth and that God will dwell with His people on the new earth. That leaves no room for His earthly people, Israel.

Romans 11:[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

There you have it. ALL of Israel shall be saved. Perfectly explainable.