Sovereign Election

[DHK]

We can let the readers decide...you are exposed for what you are...You still miss the chapter...I do not believe you have been allowed to grasp any of it yet....but others will....:wavey::wavey::thumbsup:

Adam Clarke:

As God is not willing that any should perish, and as he is willing that all should come to repentance, consequently he has never devised nor decreed the damnation of any man, nor has he rendered it impossible for any soul to be saved, either by necessitating him to do evil, that he might die for it, or refusing him the means of recovery, without which he could not be saved.

Again, that is Clarke's quote.
That is not your position; never has been your position; and in fact goes entirely against your position. Don't even pretend to think that you agree with Adam Clarke.

Here again, don't play the hypocrite Icon. You disagree with Spurgeon as well:

Those who perish and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ, not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin

You have never held this view. You have held an opposite view that God selects before the foundation of the world some to eternal life and damns the rest to eternal torment in the lake of fire--just like the WOCF says so. That is not what MacArthur believes. He does not believe in the hard determinism you believe in.
He believes that those that are damned are not damned on the basis of predetermined reprobation, but rather because they have rejected Christ.

As Clarke said:
The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin.

Calvinism doesn't provide the mercy enough for the reprobate to even understand the gospel so that they have a chance to reject it. That is what Calvin taught. Even if they did hear the gospel they could not understand it for they were corpses when it came to the truth of the gospel. But MacArthur and Clarke are not espousing that view.
You, however, do.

 

[Revmitchell]

One of the reasons I stay away from the cal debates is you get sucked into spending more time arguing over who is not debating the right way and who is deliberately misusing context that everyone just talks past each other. It is not fruitful and mostly childish. It edifies no one.

 

[convicted1]

2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)



Peter identifies who he is writing to...not as you say...those who are perishing- no He is writing this second epistle to the beloved...the elect.
How do we know?
Easy...He says it is the SECOND epistle! So that links us to the first epistle...correct??? How were these strangers addressed the first time?


1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

They are foreknown by God...WHOM HE DID FOREKNOW He also did predestinate etc



He is reminding these elect believers of what Is promised in the Covenant salvation they have been called to.

Scoffers have come mocking the faith once delivered to the saints....This is the CONTEXT OF THIS WHOLE CHAPTER.

Peter is addressing to things....what the promise of God is to those who are in Covenant with Him....as opposed to the ungodly scoffers who are trying to discourage them and question the certainty of the Churchs Victory in Christ.


This speaks to the whole OT ...the Covenant promises being fulfilled in Jesus. It speaks of God's electing love and the 100% certainty of what God has purposed to do by Electing and saving grace in all the prophets....Isa 40-66, ezkiel 34-44, Jer 31 joel 2-3 etc....
Now the contrast by the enemies..

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

He states what will happen to the wicked in his day, is what happened to the wicked in times past...the died in unbelief and went into the righteous judgement of God.


8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,

In reminding the elect in this second epistle....he does not want them to be ignorant...so pay attention ...because you still are according to what you have posted......
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

He is addressing the Beloved...those being saved by God...he is telling them...do not worry about the time that has passed by...God has a plan for the whole age....

he is speaking of God's promise to His people...he would be their God, they would be His people.....



The some men...are the scoffers from vs 3-7...read it again read it as many times as you like...it will not change-
,

The long suffering of God leads to the salvation of all the elect from all time....the US WARD..... which you want to ignore or explain it away.
If the lord returned in Peters day...none of us today would have been saved...we would never have been born....Thankfully because we were part of God's plan...he waited then and he waits now, until all the elect will be born and drawn savingly to Jesus.



Not one of the people spoken of here...the beloved who were already saved, the elect beloved who were yet to be born,,,, not ONE WILL Perish....each and every person who is meant to be saved will be....NO More/No less.
A word study will reveal two words used in the greek which you discount all the time...Bulemai, and thelo...are words used to describe the term willing....The way they are used here is that God has decreed destined and purposed that none of the beloved will perish...not ONE!
This is what is taught and to clinch it we just have to continue in context and read the rest of the chapter....

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


he is still speaking to believers exhorting them to required holiness

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 .

He is still speaking of the Beloved, Foreknown ,ELECT....WE ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE.......

Do you begin to see how badly you have totally missed the whole passage??? Wait there is even more!

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

This not only clinches this truth, but Peter now appeals to Pauls writing about God's election and long suffering toward His elect people tying in Romans and Pauls other writings on this topic.
Not only are you dead wrong on calvinism but your dispy ideas get flushed in this passage....

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;



You have to come to grips with this chapter and revamp your wrong ideas or the warning found here as do other members of team anti-cal Jihad.

 

[convicted1]

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine.

1) We all sin at some time or another, for all have fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore there are none that are righteous. This truth does not support Calvinism's Total Spiritual Inability doctrine.

2) Some men some of the time do seek after God, Matthew 23:13. So scripture does not preclude some unregenerates understanding some spiritual milk of the time. Valid doctrine must be consistent with all scripture.

3) Logically there are none who seek after God all the time, or there are none who seek after God when they are sinning. That does not contradict that some seek after God, i.e. Matthew 23:13.

4) Efforts to bolster your argument using logical fallacies demonstrates the inherent weakness of your argument.

Just for grins, folks, open your Bibles to Psalm 14. Note how the none refers not to all mankind, but to wicked fools who say there is no God. Keep reading to verse 5, and note that some seek God as a refuge. So the premise, no one ever seeks God, is unbiblical.

Total Spiritual Inability has been demonstrated as mistaken doctrine as follows:
1) No one seeks God does not say as Calvinism claims, no one seeks God at any time while unregenerate. This is an example of adding to the text to pour Calvinism into the text. Contextually, Paul is saying since no one seeks God all the time, we all sin, therefore everyone is under sin.

2) The passage 1 Corinthians 2:14 to 3:3 teaches that fallen natural men cannot understand some spiritual things, spiritual meat, because they are not indwelt. But men of flesh can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

3) Matthew 23:13 teaches some men were entering heaven, and thus seeking God effectively, while unregenerate and not under the compulsion of irresistible grace, because they were blocked. This verse teaches both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are mistaken doctrines.

Collectively, we find that these three verses provide objective evidence Calvinism is in error.

Four points of the Calvinist TULIP, i.e. TULI are mistaken doctrines with no actual support in scripture. They have poured Calvinism into the text by selectively choosing verses out of context and adding a little here and taking a little away there.

How were we chosen, unconditionally or through faith in the truth? Through faith!!

Did God desire all men to be saved or just some? All men!!

Did Jesus die for the church or all mankind? Both!!

Were the men entering heaven blocked? Yes, thus the grace was not irresistible.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Adam Clarke:

As God is not willing that any should perish, and as he is willing that all should come to repentance, consequently he has never devised nor decreed the damnation of any man, nor has he rendered it impossible for any soul to be saved, either by necessitating him to do evil, that he might die for it, or refusing him the means of recovery, without which he could not be saved.

Again, that is Clarke's quote.
That is not your position; never has been your position; and in fact goes entirely against your position. Don't even pretend to think that you agree with Adam Clarke.

Adam Clarke offered his opinion.I believe he has missed the thrust of the passage. I do not share his opinion as I see it as not interacting with the passage. He has God being a spectator. In other words...

As God is not willing that any should perish, and as he is willing that all should come to repentance

God grants repentance. He describes it as He is willing.....He does not grant it, but if anyone wants to repent...He is willing to "let them"

This is to avoid the passage, compromise and say nothing, as men do not want to repent and seek God.They need a supernatural work to happen to them...as AA pointed out to you in John 3...which you rejected.

nor has he rendered it impossible for any soul to be saved, either by necessitating him to do evil, that he might die for it, or refusing him the means of recovery, without which he could not be saved.

This is saying very little...it is like saying....God did not shut the door on the ark until judgement day. While true....it does not really address the passage except to portray a spector God rather than an active God in control of all that is coming to pass. I do not read or use Adam Clarke often because this is what he offers.

Here again, don't play the hypocrite Icon. You disagree with Spurgeon as well:

Rather than answerwhat I actually did write in two posts...you decide to play "my Spokesmen" because you cannot interact with what I actually posted.
This is why RM commented on what he did....you did not stay on point. Of course you have no answer to it. So you try and speak for me now:laugh:

You disagree with Spurgeon as well:

Quote:
Those who perish and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ, not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin

I do agree with Spurgeon as I said;

1]Those who perish and go to hell,...yes they do

2]go because they are depraved ....yes having died in Adam...T

3]are depraved and worthy only of hell ...yes they are

4]and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ...they do every time:thumbs:

5]not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. ... I hold the infralapsarian position, although it would not bother me if the supra lapsarian position was the biblical one.....God can and does do whatever he wills to do.

6]The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin ....this is also true

So you are not my spokesmen...you are fired:laugh:

You have never held this view.

Show where I have not...better still answer my last two posts rather than hide like an ostritch.

You have held an opposite view that God selects before the foundation of the world some to eternal life

This is the biblical view which you deny

and damns the rest to eternal torment in the lake of fire

--

They do go into second death ...they are responsible to repent and believe but as Spurgeon says...they hold on to their sin

just like the WOCF says so.

While that is a good confession of faith...as a baptist...I use the london Baptist confession;
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Got it now:wavey:

That is not what MacArthur believes. He does not believe in the hard determinism you believe in.

sure he does...I have listened and read him for over 30 years..

Calvinism doesn't provide the mercy enough for the reprobate to even understand the gospel so that they have a chance to reject it.

The gospel is offered , they refuse

That is what Calvin taught.

stop hiding behind Calvin...I did not mention or quote him did I?
Answer me from the last two posts which offer correction to your error.

 

[Robert William]

One of the reasons I stay away from the cal debates is you get sucked into spending more time arguing over who is not debating the right way and who is deliberately misusing context that everyone just talks past each other. It is not fruitful and mostly childish. It edifies no one.

Then you are not qualified to be a Preacher.

Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tit 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tit 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Mitchell, don't be such a woos.

 

[Van]

I see a Calvinist posted two non-germane verses in yet another futile attempt to change the subject. They have no answer, other than "taint so" for Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

And then we have the video of a person failing to accomplish what he had intended. This typifies the Calvinist behavior of charging opponents with their behavior. All they have is belittle and disparage those who hold well supported biblical views, and so reading the posts presents plop, plop, plop into the mattress.

 

[Robert William]

LOL, RT now declares his side "won" the argument! You have got to love them.

Because men were able to be entering heaven they were seeking God effectively, thus Total Spiritual Inability is mistaken doctrine, and Limited Spiritual Ability is the actual biblical doctrine. To say the opponents, whose argument was "taint so" won is to be disingenuous.

No one seeks God all the time because we all sin. But no verse says we never seek God at any time, because that would conflict with Matthew 23:13, which tells us of men seeking God effectively without being enabled with Irresistible Grace. To claim the "deniers" won this argument by saying "taint so" is disingenuous.

Natural men, unregenerate men of flesh, cannot understand some spiritual things (spiritual meat) is true, but because Paul taught folks as men of flesh, using milk, demonstrates to any objective reader, that men of flesh can understand some spiritual things. To say the "deniers" won this argument by saying "taint so" is disingenuous.

Four points of the Calvinist TULIP, i.e. TULI are mistaken doctrines with no actual support in scripture. They have poured Calvinism into the text by selectively choosing verses out of context and adding a little here and taking a little away there.

How were we chosen, unconditionally or through faith in the truth? Through faith!!

Did God desire all men to be saved or just some? All men!!

Did Jesus die for the church or all mankind? Both!!

Were the men entering heaven blocked? Yes, thus the grace was not irresistible.

Mans Depravity= Both REAL Arminians and Calvinists Agree

It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
loves darkness (John 3:19),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)

13 reasons semi pelagians/pelagians are wrong !

1)man has a heart that is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)
11)man cannot do good(Romans 3:10)
12) man hates God (Rom 8:7)
13)man loves sin (1 John 3:19)

 

[Van]

Hi Robert Willians, why not address the three passages? Why try once again to change the subject?

I see you listed (#8) 1 Cor. 2:14 but somehow did not address the passage where Paul teaches that unregenerates cannot understand spiritual meat, but can understand spiritual milk. I am reminded of the movie Top Gun, where Maverick will not engage.

And I see where Romans 3:10-12 is mentioned but again the Calvinist addition, "at any time" is not acknowledged.

And of course Matthew 23:13 is no where to be found.

You have got to love them folks.

 

[Robert William]

Hi Robert Willians, why not address the three passages? Why try once again to change the subject?

I see you listed (#8) 1 Cor. 2:14 but somehow did not address the passage where Paul teaches that unregenerates cannot understand spiritual meat, but can understand spiritual milk. I am reminded of the movie Top Gun, where Maverick will not engage.

And I see where Romans 3:10-12 is mentioned but again the Calvinist addition, "at any time" is not acknowledged.

And of course Matthew 23:13 is no where to be found.

You have got to love them folks.

Howdy Van,

! Cor 2:14 says the natural man will NOT RECEIVE the things of God but sees them as foolishness, that would include milk.

I don't know what you are trying to say about Rom 3:10-12 but says nobody is seeking for God, that proves the depravity of man.


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Matt 23:12 is talking about the Pharisees teaching Law and bondage, this has nothing to do with the New Testament Church.

 

[DHK]

DHK

I do agree with Spurgeon as I said;

This is the biblical view which you deny
--
They do go into second death ...they are responsible to repent and believe but as Spurgeon says...they hold on to their sin

While that is a good confession of faith...as a baptist...I use the london Baptist confession;
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace;

others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Again let me reiterate that part of Spurgeon which you seem to left out or misunderstood, or just deliberately ignored.
Either way it does not agree with what you posted above.

Those who perish and go to hell, go because they are depraved and worthy only of hell and have rejected the only remedy, Jesus Christ, not because they were created for hell and predetermined to go there. The path to damnation is the path of one who rejects the person and provision of Jesus Christ and holds on to sin

Do you understand now?
They go to hell because they deliberately reject Christ according to Spurgeon
NOT,
Because they were determined or foreordained or elected to go there.

 

[Protestant]

A Conversation with the Lord

No one seeks God does not say as Calvinism claims, no one seeks God at any time while unregenerate.

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 50 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 45 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 30 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 20 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 10 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: "Surely there is one righteous some of the time."

The Lord: "If there is one righteous I will not destroy your city."

(Man’s city is destroyed.)

Man: “But surely there was one person who sought after You some of the time.”

The Lord: “There is none who seeketh after Me. It is I who seeketh after them. Have you never read the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden? Do you not know why I am the Good Shepherd?”

Man: “But what about Matt. 23:13?”

The Lord: "Read My Lips………….THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."

(Man is silent having been turned into a pile of doggy booyah.)

The Lord: "There is a limit to how long My Spirit will put up with such human ignorance."

 

[Protestant]

Well, the Bible doesn't contradict itself. You have made your case. Let us consider some other scripture.

First, Isaiah 1:1-9.
Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
--Over and over again Jehovah pleads for Israel, a nation who for centuries has been rebelling against Him. But he never gives up. He doesn't plead for just some of them, but for all of them to repent.
--In the same way we see Jesus:
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
--Jesus weeping over Jerusalem.
Who was in Jerusalem? Judas? Annas? Caiaphas? The entire Sanhedrin? The Roman soldiers?
Jesus wept over the entire city of Jerusalem--all of its citizens or all that lived there--not just the elect, or some small group. Not just his disciples! He wept over them all!
Jesus loved more than just the elect. This is very evident through this scripture.

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we can better determine its meaning.

For example, Christ was pronouncing scathing judgments upon the scribes and Pharisees before launching into “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.”

They are the ones whom He addresses as ‘Jerusalem’: the religious leaders who denied the people the means by which they could hear and learn the truth –

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city

The fact that the leaders ‘would not’ exemplifies the unregenerate lack of will to do that which is spiritually pleasing to God….despite the number of witnesses standing before them testifying to the truth.

The Scripture you cite does not indicate ‘weeping.’ Of course, Jesus wept according to Scriptures. However, I could find no scriptural authority claiming Jesus wept during this particular discourse.

Jesus proclaimed it had been His will to evangelize and gather a people for His name, but the religious leaders would not have it.

The serious Bible student need be apprised of the significant difference between the Preceptive and Decretive wills of God.

The Preceptive will is that will of God which publicly declares the duty which men rightfully owe God and each other.

This will is countermanded every day.

This was the will which the religious leaders refused to obey.

However, the Decretive will is that secret will of God which must certainly come to pass.

Neither man nor devil can countermand this will. (e.g. Dan. 4:35)

It is that will which came to pass, as clearly seen in Acts 2 ff. when 3,000 were immediately added to the church rolls.

Election always results in saving faith, for it is most definitely decreed in His secret all-powerful Decretive will:

as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Iconoclast]

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we can better determine its meaning.

For example, Christ was pronouncing scathing judgments upon the scribes and Pharisees before launching into “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.”

They are the ones whom He addresses as ‘Jerusalem’: the religious leaders who denied the people the means by which they could hear and learn the truth –

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city

The fact that the leaders ‘would not’ exemplifies the unregenerate lack of will to do that which is spiritually pleasing to God….despite the number of witnesses standing before them testifying to the truth.

The Scripture you cite does not indicate ‘weeping.’ Of course, Jesus wept according to Scriptures. However, I could find no scriptural authority claiming Jesus wept during this particular discourse.

Jesus proclaimed it had been His will to evangelize and gather a people for His name, but the religious leaders would not have it.

The serious Bible student need be apprised of the significant difference between the Preceptive and Decretive wills of God.

The Preceptive will is that will of God which publicly declares the duty which men rightfully owe God and each other.

This will is countermanded every day.

This was the will which the religious leaders refused to obey.

However, the Decretive will is that secret will of God which must certainly come to pass.

Neither man nor devil can countermand this will. (e.g. Dan. 4:35)

It is that will which came to pass, as clearly seen in Acts 2 ff. when 3,000 were immediately added to the church rolls.

Election always results in saving faith, for it is most definitely decreed in His secret all-powerful Decretive will:

as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Another good post protestant.....you are pitching a no hit shut out with Van and DHK:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 50 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 45 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 30 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 20 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 10 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: "Surely there is one righteous some of the time."

The Lord: "If there is one righteous I will not destroy your city."

(Man’s city is destroyed.)

Man: “But surely there was one person who sought after You some of the time.”

The Lord: “There is none who seeketh after Me. It is I who seeketh after them. Have you never read the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden? Do you not know why I am the Good Shepherd?”

Man: “But what about Matt. 23:13?”

The Lord: "Read My Lips………….THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."

(Man is silent having been turned into a pile of doggy booyah.)

The Lord: "There is a limit to how long My Spirit will put up with such human ignorance."

:laugh::wavey::laugh::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

One of the reasons I stay away from the cal debates is you get sucked into spending more time arguing over who is not debating the right way and who is deliberately misusing context that everyone just talks past each other. It is not fruitful and mostly childish. It edifies no one.

Well,,,if you notice...this happens on one side of the discussion.
DHK cannot answer so he jumps to somewhere else.....He then tries to say I cannot believe what I do believe:laugh:

What do you believe on the 2 pet 3 passage as discussed here?

 

[Iconoclast]

Again let me reiterate that part of Spurgeon which you seem to left out or misunderstood, or just deliberately ignored.
Either way it does not agree with what you posted above.

Do you understand now?
They go to hell because they deliberately reject Christ according to Spurgeon
NOT,
Because they were determined or foreordained or elected to go there.

While Election and Reprobation are biblical doctrines....you understand neither one....so of course you will claim I have not agreed with Spurgeon. It is not my fault you do not grasp these teachings.

as an aside...men go to hell for their sin even if they do not hear of Jesus....

But I notice you were not able to respond to my two posts on 2 pet3.....because you know anything you post will be as empty as your post on eph 1 thread....that was really horrible...maybe you can edit it before anyone reads it????:laugh::laugh:...too late Reformed and AA....have jumped on that fresh error:laugh:

 

[DHK]

By comparing Scripture with Scripture we can better determine its meaning.

For example, Christ was pronouncing scathing judgments upon the scribes and Pharisees before launching into “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.”

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

This is a lament. In case you don't know what that means, Merriam-Webster says:

: to express sorrow, mourning, or regret for often demonstratively : mourn

Concerning the verse A.T. Robertson says:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem (Ierousalêm, Ierousalêm). In Mt 23:37 Jesus utters a similar lament over Jerusalem. The connection suits both there and here.
The language of the apostrophe is almost identical in both places (Lu 13:34; Mt 23:37-39). In Luke we have episunaxai (late first aorist active infinitive) and in Matthew episunagagein (second aorist active infinitive), both from episunagô, a double compound of late Greek (Polybius). Both have "How often would I" (posakis êthelêsa). How often did I wish. Clearly showing that Jesus made repeated visits to Jerusalem as we know otherwise only from John's Gospel. Even as (hon tropon). Accusative of general reference and in Mt 23:37 also. Incorporation of antecedent into the relative clause. Brood (nossian) is in Luke while Matthew has chickens (nossia), both late forms for the older neossia.

It is a lament. As a mother hen "broods" over her chicks. The imagery is there.

They are the ones whom He addresses as ‘Jerusalem’: the religious leaders who denied the people the means by which they could hear and learn the truth –

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city

The fact that the leaders ‘would not’ exemplifies the unregenerate lack of will to do that which is spiritually pleasing to God….despite the number of witnesses standing before them testifying to the truth.

The Scripture you cite does not indicate ‘weeping.’ Of course, Jesus wept according to Scriptures. However, I could find no scriptural authority claiming Jesus wept during this particular discourse.

The first meaning given of lament is: to mourn aloud : wail!
Jesus wasn't a conservative Westerner wearing a suit, carrying a brief case, and going to his office.
Nicodemus called him "Rabbi." This was in the first century in Israel. He lamented over the citizens of Jerusalem for he knew the destruction that was about to come upon the entire city. It would not just affect its religious leaders; it would affect all who lived there--and he had compassion on all.
--As the leaders go, so goes the city.
When Christ was crucified, it wasn't just the few that ruled; it wasn't just the Sanhedrin, and a few Roman soldiers, No. There was an entire mob crying out: "Crucify Him; Crucify Him," far more than the number of the Sanhedrin.

Jesus proclaimed it had been His will to evangelize and gather a people for His name, but the religious leaders would not have it.

He never gave up on them. He even kept Judas to the bitter end.
He allowed the religious leaders to engage him right to the end and always answered their questions. He never gave up on them.
If Calvinism was true Christ knew which ones were not the elect; he knew the wickedness of their hearts; their intent to kill him. He should have just ignored them. They were doomed to Hell anyway. But he didn't. He demonstrated his love to them--all of them.
This is demonstrated here:
Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

The serious Bible student need be apprised of the significant difference between the Preceptive and Decretive wills of God.

The Preceptive will is that will of God which publicly declares the duty which men rightfully owe God and each other.

This will is countermanded every day.

This was the will which the religious leaders refused to obey.

However, the Decretive will is that secret will of God which must certainly come to pass.

Neither man nor devil can countermand this will. (e.g. Dan. 4:35)

It is that will which came to pass, as clearly seen in Acts 2 ff. when 3,000 were immediately added to the church rolls.

God has declared what is his will in His word. It is his will for all believers to obey the Great Commission, but all will not. Or that all believers spend time in prayer, but all will not, etc. That doesn't mean God fails, rather it means man has a free will and he disobeys God.
This happens to unsaved man as well.
The unsaved have the responsibility of responding to God and accepting his free gift of salvation. If he rejects that gift he condemns himself to hell. That is the reason he is damned, not because it is predetermined before the foundation of the world.

Election always results in saving faith, for it is most definitely decreed in His secret all-powerful Decretive will:

That is false.
Faith is faith. "Saving faith" is not found in the Bible.
Election is a term that applies to the blessings given to believers. It is not used in direct connection to salvation or damnation.

 

[Protestant]

Jesus, in his earthly ministry, never turned anyone away. He plainly said:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--He wasn't speaking to just the elect, but to all. This was Jesus invitation to all to come to him, whoever had any burden, and he would give them "rest."
--It was to "whosoever" was weary, burdened or thirsty, etc.
Or, Whosoever would believe on him would be saved.

Very true. And when comparing Scripture with Scripture we discover that none seek God, none come to Christ, unless drawn by the Father. (Romans 3:11 cf. John 6:65)

The ‘whosoever’ includes all men without distinction of race, religion, social status, gender, nationality, etc.

Our Lord does not discriminate when it comes to saving repentant sinners.

God gave his son for the salvation of the whole world.

Did God give His Son for the salvation of those who never heard of Christ?
………the timeline of which encompasses several thousands of years pertaining to tens of millions of souls.

How were they ‘saved’?

Billy Graham understood this anomaly. If God loves everyone and justly gives everyone a fair shot at salvation, how does one account a 'fair shot' given to the millions who never heard of Christ?

His answer: Salvation is possible through believing there is a God by faith in Nature.

What is your explanation?

He is not willing that any should perish.

Regretfully, you have chosen to disregard the context and use this one verse as a pretext for proving a false premise.

And what of the tens of millions who never heard of Christ?

Was He not willing that they should perish?

Now in order to get around the plain sense of scripture, one has to annul what this very clear teaching is. IOW, one must change the meaning. Thus "whosoever," and "all" become "elect," when otherwise they are not used that way. The only reason such changes are made is to support Calvinism.

The Elect are the ‘beloved.’ (2Peter 3:1)The ‘beloved’ for whom Christ died will never perish. Christ promises as much. (John 10:11; 10:27-29)

 

[robustheologian]

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 50 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 45 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 30 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 20 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: “Surely there are 10 righteous some of the time.”

The Lord: “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.”

Man: "Surely there is one righteous some of the time."

The Lord: "If there is one righteous I will not destroy your city."

(Man’s city is destroyed.)

Man: “But surely there was one person who sought after You some of the time.”

The Lord: “There is none who seeketh after Me. It is I who seeketh after them. Have you never read the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden? Do you not know why I am the Good Shepherd?”

Man: “But what about Matt. 23:13?”

The Lord: "Read My Lips………….THERE IS NONE THAT DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE."

(Man is silent having been turned into a pile of doggy booyah.)

The Lord: "There is a limit to how long My Spirit will put up with such human ignorance."

:applause: :thumbs: This is so well put. Sadly, misguided men like Van still won't get it. Don't believe me? Watch.