Sovereign Election

[DHK]

Very true. And when comparing Scripture with Scripture we discover that none seek God, none come to Christ, unless drawn by the Father. (Romans 3:11 cf. John 6:65)

The Scripture actually doesn't say that, you just want it to.
Man is born, goes to school, graduates, gets married, has a family, retires and dies. Can I say all men? It is a general statement for our society. We come into this world and it is definite that we will go out of this world.
When the Psalmist said "no man seeks God," the specific context was "no man in Babylonia," for the Israelite certainly did seek God. Thus the statement was not all inclusive. It was not an absolute statement. It was a general statement speaking of the Babylonians.
Paul quotes the statement in Romans 3. What is the context.
In chapter one he speaks or describes the Gentiles.
In chapter two he describes the Jews.
In chapter three he describes the world, or both Jews and Gentiles together.
Both--Jew and Gentile--irrespective of race, do not seek after God. It is not an absolute statement however. It is a general statement about mankind, just as Psalm 14 was a general statement.
Cornelius sought after God. So have many others. God has commanded that we seek after him.

Seek ye the Lord while he yet may be found.

The ‘whosoever’ includes all men without distinction of race, religion, social status, gender, nationality, etc.

Our Lord does not discriminate when it comes to saving repentant sinners.

That is right. So "all" means "all."

Did God give His Son for the salvation of those who never heard of Christ?
………the timeline of which encompasses several thousands of years pertaining to tens of millions of souls.

I like guys that ask this question.
It tells me that they don't have a clue about missions, are not concerned about missions, are not involved in carrying out the Great Commission and don't intend to be involved.
If you had a heart for the lost, for those that had never heard the gospel, then you would: sell all that you have, give to the poor, and go to those that have never heard the gospel and spend the rest your life telling them about it. But no, instead you just set forth a theological conjecture that you don't think cannot be answered. You aren't concerned about the lost at all.
Perhaps you forget that I am a missionary.

How were they ‘saved’?

Billy Graham understood this anomaly. If God loves everyone and justly gives everyone a fair shot at salvation, how does one account a 'fair shot' given to the millions who never heard of Christ?

His answer: Salvation is possible through believing there is a God by faith in Nature.

What is your explanation?

Billy Graham is not correct on everything.
The Bible indicates certain definite truths.
It indicates that God has given to mankind a certain amount of revelation:
Psalm 19:1-4--general revelation through nature.
Rom.1:16-20--Enough revelation to come to a conclusion that God is the triune Godhead and there is no excuse for not believing in Him.
That man is commanded to both repent and seek the Lord.
If man does so, then God will provide a way that man will hear of salvation, such as he made it possible for Cornelius. This has happened many times over as many missionaries can attest to.
"The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
God gives to all men the opportunity to be saved. "They are without excuse."
Romans 2:14,15
--Every man has the moral law written on their hearts that attest to God.
--Every man has a "God-conscience" that comes from God.
--Every man feels "guilt" from that conscience when they sin--"accusing others or excusing themselves."
They have no excuse for not believing. Faith is innate. Faith is faith. There is no such thing as "saving faith." What saves is the object of the faith. The object of one's faith must be Christ.

Regretfully, you have chosen to disregard the context and use this one verse as a pretext for proving a false premise.

And what of the tens of millions who never heard of Christ?

Was He not willing that they should perish?

I am not the one ignoring the context; the typical Calvinist (yourself) ignores the context--judgement; the end of the world. God is not willing that any should perish when this world perishes.
Concerning the tens of millions...I have already addressed that. When are you going to go to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Iran, etc. to tell them of the love of God and grace of God that brings salvation?
God is not willing that they should perish, but he wants you to take the gospel to them so they won't. You bear responsibility here as well.
Jesus left the spiritual welfare of the entire world in the hands of just eleven men. He had no backup plan. Christianity was to succeed through these eleven men. As it was with them, so it is with us. The Great Commission did not end with the Apostles.

The Elect are the ‘beloved.’ (2Peter 3:1)The ‘beloved’ for whom Christ died will never perish. Christ promises as much. (John 10:11; 10:27-29)

You habitually redefine words and twist the scriptures. The words are what they say they are. If he wanted to say beloved a second time he would have used that word, but he didn't. So why infer that the Holy Spirit is lying?

 

[Rippon]

I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me;
I was found by those who did not seek me. (Isaiah 65:1 and Romans 10:20)

 

[Protestant]

I like guys that ask this question.
It tells me that they don't have a clue about missions, are not concerned about missions, are not involved in carrying out the Great Commission and don't intend to be involved.

I have a little knowledge about missions. My father and stepmother were missionaries to Liberia for decades.

If you had a heart for the lost, for those that had never heard the gospel, then you would: sell all that you have, give to the poor, and go to those that have never heard the gospel and spend the rest your life telling them about it. But no, instead you just set forth a theological conjecture that you don't think cannot be answered. You aren't concerned about the lost at all.

I do care about the lost. That is why I evangelize on the Baptist Board and elsewhere: to clarify issues that our Lord wishes His people understand....salvation being one of them.

It is my firm conviction that the professing church is a huge mission field.

Perhaps you forget that I am a missionary.

I honor and respect the many sacrifices you and your family have endured in your service to the Lord.

However, the question I posed about the millions who lived before the time of Christ has nothing to do with today's mission field.

Do you consider it possible that those millions are saved by 'another Gospel?'

 

[Protestant]

One of the primary premises to work from is simply: "God is love." This is one of the great themes of the Book of John, where John presents Christ and His love for others. "God so loved..."

Yes, the love of God is very real. All His Elect can testify to that wonderful truth.

Lamentably, as of this date you have yet to appreciate our ‘so great salvation’.

From a superficial viewpoint there is no need to compare Scripture with Scripture.

The Bible says ‘God is love’ and that is the end of that: God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

But for the serious Bible student there are many more attributes to our God….infinitely perfect attributes which He clearly displays in His Word: holiness, righteousness, wisdom, omnipotence, sovereignty, justice, mercy, etc, etc., etc.

Furthermore, the serious Bible student cannot dismiss the resounding disobedience of the human race, as well as the damning description of the human heart.

And lastly, the serious Bible student cannot disregard the fact of satanic spiritual warfare which is taking place every day all over the world, as well as the power the demonic spirits hold over unregenerate men.

When all the essential biblical revelations concerning God, man and demonic spirits is honestly evaluated, it is nothing less than a denial of the biblical record to sum up its contents as you have: God loves everyone ever born and is not willing for any human to perish.

I would expect this kind of exegesis from the lips of a grade school pupil, not from a mature Bible reading Pastor.

I mean you no disrespect, but there are those of us Christians who believe that growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord is no idle suggestion.

 

[The Archangel]

I find it astounding that you say this:

The Scripture actually doesn't say that, you just want it to.

And then you go on to say this:

When the Psalmist said "no man seeks God," the specific context was "no man in Babylonia," for the Israelite certainly did seek God. Thus the statement was not all inclusive. It was not an absolute statement. It was a general statement speaking of the Babylonians.

I have scoured my library (which is massive), and I have yet to find one remark coming close to suggesting that David--who is the ascribed author of this Psalm--wrote this Psalm while in Babylon.

In fact, if David is the author of this Psalm--and a vast majority of scholars seem to agree he is--he isn't referencing Babylon at all.

What is more, you're doing great gymnastics with the text--and the scope of biblical theology itself--to say that Paul's meaning, which is crystal clear, can't be what we take it to mean.

First off, Paul is clear in his usage: No one is righteous; no one seeks after God. It isn't that some don't, it's that all don't. But, your kicking against Paul's goads (which is, I dare say, ironic) proves the point that Paul was trying to make. Your attempt--feeble and misguided as it is--to obscure and obfuscate the text and meaning of Psalm 14 to have a non-universal implication proves that Paul was writing universally--no one seeks God, no one is righteous.

Certainly Paul knew his Old Testament--and he knew it far better than you (or I). But now you're suggesting you know better than Paul what Paul means?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but the inconsistency with which you reason and write is quite surprising. You accuse people who can rightly divide the word of truth of twisting scripture while it is plain for everyone to see that you are making egregious errors handling the text. When correction is offered by persons who know more, all you can do is dodge.... Sad, indeed.

The Archangel

 

[robustheologian]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but the inconsistency with which you reason and write is quite surprising. You accuse people who can rightly divide the word of truth of twisting scripture while it is plain for everyone to see that you are making egregious errors handling the text. When correction is offered by persons who know more, all you can do is dodge.... Sad, indeed.

This is true with a lot of people.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

Man is born, goes to school, graduates, gets married, has a family, retires and dies.

All thats natural stuff, has nothing to do with Seeking God !

Seeking God is Spiritual, it results from having a spiritual hunger or thirst wrought in us by the Life of God or Spiritual Life in a person.

Yet all men by nature are spiritually dead. So none by nature can seek God, so the bible teaches Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The only exception Paul forgot about was DHK !

 

[Robert William]

dhk



All thats natural stuff, has nothing to do with Seeking God !

Seeking God is Spiritual, it results from having a spiritual hunger or thirst wrought in us by the Life of God or Spiritual Life in a person.

Yet all men by nature are spiritually dead. So none by nature can seek God, so the bible teaches Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The only exception Paul forgot about was DHK !

:thumbs: LOL good points.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

dhk



All thats natural stuff, has nothing to do with Seeking God !

Seeking God is Spiritual, it results from having a spiritual hunger or thirst wrought in us by the Life of God or Spiritual Life in a person.

Yet all men by nature are spiritually dead. So none by nature can seek God, so the bible teaches Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The only exception Paul forgot about was DHK !

Ha Ha Ha.....

 

[Van]

Amazing folks, such a studied effort to avoid the three verses. Protestant claims my view is that some are righteous. Totally false, just another effort to avoid the three verses.

RT claims something is wrong with my character. You have got to love them.

Icon gives a thumbs up to the misrepresentation. LOL

And Williams again avoids the Calvinist addition of "at any time" to Romans 3:10-11.

Do unregenerate men seek God? According to Calvinism, no. But Matthew 23:13 tells us men were entering heaven, and thus seeking God effectively. So the Calvinist claim is unbiblical.

Do unregenerate men seek God all the time or when they are sinning? Nope. So since men mostly do not seek God, no one is righteous. But Matthew 23:13 teaches some men at some times do seek God.

Can unregenerate men understand spiritual meat? Nope. Can men of flesh understand spiritual milk? Yes, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

We are at 19 pages of avoidance, misrepresentation, and ad homenims. You have got to love them.

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

 

[Robert William]

Amazing folks, such a studied effort to avoid the three verses. Protestant claims my view is that some are righteous. Totally false, just another effort to avoid the three verses.

RT claims something is wrong with my character. You have got to love them.

Icon gives a thumbs up to the misrepresentation. LOL

And Williams again avoids the Calvinist addition of "at any time" to Romans 3:10-11.

Do unregenerate men seek God? According to Calvinism, no. But Matthew 23:13 tells us men were entering heaven, and thus seeking God effectively. So the Calvinist claim is unbiblical.

Do unregenerate men seek God all the time or when they are sinning? Nope. So since men mostly do not seek God, no one is righteous. But Matthew 23:13 teaches some men at some times do seek God.

Can unregenerate men understand spiritual meat? Nope. Can men of flesh understand spiritual milk? Yes, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

We are at 19 pages of avoidance, misrepresentation, and ad homenims. You have got to love them.

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

The unregenerate natural man understands more than you think (see Rom 1:18-22) the problem is he will NOT RECEIVE the things of God, because he hates God, he is his own god and serves himself.

 

[savedbymercy]

Amazing folks, such a studied effort to avoid the three verses. Protestant claims my view is that some are righteous. Totally false, just another effort to avoid the three verses.

RT claims something is wrong with my character. You have got to love them.

Icon gives a thumbs up to the misrepresentation. LOL

And Williams again avoids the Calvinist addition of "at any time" to Romans 3:10-11.

Do unregenerate men seek God? According to Calvinism, no. But Matthew 23:13 tells us men were entering heaven, and thus seeking God effectively. So the Calvinist claim is unbiblical.

Do unregenerate men seek God all the time or when they are sinning? Nope. So since men mostly do not seek God, no one is righteous. But Matthew 23:13 teaches some men at some times do seek God.

Can unregenerate men understand spiritual meat? Nope. Can men of flesh understand spiritual milk? Yes, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

We are at 19 pages of avoidance, misrepresentation, and ad homenims. You have got to love them.

Calvinism is mistaken doctrine as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13, Romans 3:10-11, and 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

Nothing to avoid, the scriptures are clear that none by nature seeks after God! Rom 3:11 ! Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 ! You can quote scriptures all day, Nothing changes things!

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The Scripture actually doesn't say that, you just want it to.

When the Psalmist said "no man seeks God," the specific context was "no man in Babylonia," for the Israelite certainly did seek God. Thus the statement was not all inclusive. It was not an absolute statement. It was a general statement speaking of the Babylonians.[/QUOTE]

:laugh: Van has a convert:laugh:

If you had a heart for the lost, for those that had never heard the gospel, then you would: sell all that you have, give to the poor, and go to those that have never heard the gospel and spend the rest your life telling them about it. But no, instead you just set forth a theological conjecture that you don't think cannot be answered. You aren't concerned about the lost at all.

What an evil speculation. Protestant has soundly defeated your falsehoods so now you offer this wicked charge against him with no substance, no basis whatsoever.

Perhaps you forget that I am a missionary.

Many might have cause to wonder about this based on your posting and erratic statements. Your posts are increasingly unstable.

 

[Iconoclast]

Protestant

I have a little knowledge about missions. My father and stepmother were missionaries to Liberia for decades.

Praise the Lord for them:thumbs:

I do care about the lost. That is why I evangelize on the Baptist Board and elsewhere: to clarify issues that our Lord wishes His people understand....salvation being one of them.

Amen:thumbs:

It is my firm conviction that the professing church is a huge mission field.

Yes....this is so:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, the love of God is very real. All His Elect can testify to that wonderful truth.

Lamentably, as of this date you have yet to appreciate our ‘so great salvation’.

From a superficial viewpoint there is no need to compare Scripture with Scripture.

The Bible says ‘God is love’ and that is the end of that: God said it. I believe it. That settles it.

But for the serious Bible student there are many more attributes to our God….infinitely perfect attributes which He clearly displays in His Word: holiness, righteousness, wisdom, omnipotence, sovereignty, justice, mercy, etc, etc., etc.

Furthermore, the serious Bible student cannot dismiss the resounding disobedience of the human race, as well as the damning description of the human heart.

And lastly, the serious Bible student cannot disregard the fact of satanic spiritual warfare which is taking place every day all over the world, as well as the power the demonic spirits hold over unregenerate men.

When all the essential biblical revelations concerning God, man and demonic spirits is honestly evaluated, it is nothing less than a denial of the biblical record to sum up its contents as you have: God loves everyone ever born and is not willing for any human to perish.

I would expect this kind of exegesis from the lips of a grade school pupil, not from a mature Bible reading Pastor.

I mean you no disrespect, but there are those of us Christians who believe that growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord is no idle suggestion.

Thank you for this helpful series of posts which stand solidly on the truth and refute these schismatic and fragmented ideas being set forth.

It is a bad sign if a person gets almost every issue wrong. That would suggest the Spirit is not there, so it would be answers according to the flesh.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

DHK

When the Psalmist said "no man seeks God," the specific context was "no man in Babylonia," for the Israelite certainly did seek God. Thus the statement was not all inclusive. It was not an absolute statement. It was a general statement speaking of the Babylonians.

You posted a confused "confused" emoticon. Are you also confused about context and what the Scripture says?

Van has a convert:

Van and I disagree on many things. You can question him if you like.
He certainly didn't teach me. Where do you get these bizarre ideas that come across as false accusations. The fact that two people have some things in common does not mean that there is direct correlation between the two. Or were you Augustine's disciple? Did he teach you? Is that where you learned about baptismal regeneration, purgatory, transubstantiation, and the persecution of believers that disagreed with him?

What an evil speculation. Protestant has soundly defeated your falsehoods so now you offer this wicked charge against him with no substance, no basis whatsoever.

You know nothing of what you speak, and therefore sit back and throw out nasty accusations. But that has been your MO all along.
How many nations have you ministered to. Or do you believe in missions at all? The command "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" was not limited to eleven men, it was given to all believers. Do you obey it?

Many might have cause to wonder about this based on your posting and erratic statements. Your posts are increasingly unstable.

More personal attacks.
Statements like the above are made when the person has no argument, nothing to debate, is not competent enough to say anything positive or doesn't know how to contribute in an edifying way whatsoever.
Yes, the readers will take note.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As this thread is over 190 posts, I'm issuing a six hopur warning. That means some time after 1730 (5:30pm) Pacific Time, I will close this thread without further warning.

 

[DHK]

dhk



All thats natural stuff, has nothing to do with Seeking God !

Seeking God is Spiritual, it results from having a spiritual hunger or thirst wrought in us by the Life of God or Spiritual Life in a person.

Yet all men by nature are spiritually dead. So none by nature can seek God, so the bible teaches Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The only exception Paul forgot about was DHK !

Someone forgot to tell Cornelius, SBM. Did he sin because he sought God, yet being unregenerated?

 

[Rebel]

As this thread is over 190 posts, I'm issuing a six hopur warning. That means some time after 1730 (5:30pm) Pacific Time, I will close this thread without further warning.

You're doing that because you were predestined to do it.

 

[DHK]

I find it astounding that you say this:

And then you go on to say this:

I have scoured my library (which is massive), and I have yet to find one remark coming close to suggesting that David--who is the ascribed author of this Psalm--wrote this Psalm while in Babylon.

Adam Clarke, in commenting on verse 3, suggests that those who do not seek after God and have gone aside are the Babylonians.
In verse 7 it says:

Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
--This suggests that Israel had been taken captive. It is a Messianic Psalm. Israel was not in captivity during David's time unless David is referring to the uprising of Absalom, but I doubt it. Being Messianic it seems to certainly refer to the coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom which is still future, as it refers to the "salvation of Israel." But David still may be referring to another captivity as well.
Either way, the first verse refers to the "fool," the one who declares "there is no god." In general those are the ones that are David's enemies--the Babylonians, Philistines, Syrians, etc. The nations that attacked David and did not believe in Jehovah--the enemies of the Jews.
--These ones were fools--like Goliath--cursed the name of Jehovah, defied him, and all of Israel who stood for his name.
The following verses describe the people of that or those nations, not necessarily all peoples of the world. Keep things in context.

In fact, if David is the author of this Psalm--and a vast majority of scholars seem to agree he is--he isn't referencing Babylon at all.

He didn't have to be.

What is more, you're doing great gymnastics with the text--and the scope of biblical theology itself--to say that Paul's meaning, which is crystal clear, can't be what we take it to mean.

Paul is quoting from a psalm to make the same type of point that David was making.

First off, Paul is clear in his usage: No one is righteous; no one seeks after God. It isn't that some don't, it's that all don't.

There are many that seek after God. Cornelius is one such example.
Toward the end of his life, the most wicked king that Israel ever had, Ahab, sought after the Lord.

But, your kicking against Paul's goads (which is, I dare say, ironic) proves the point that Paul was trying to make. Your attempt--feeble and misguided as it is--to obscure and obfuscate the text and meaning of Psalm 14 to have a non-universal implication proves that Paul was writing universally--no one seeks God, no one is righteous.

Why do you deny that people seek after God.
Why do you deny that God commands men not only to seek after him but to repent (something your theology says is impossible).
Why would you teach that God commands men to do that which is impossible for them to do, and having instructed them to do such, damns them to an eternal Hell any way simply because that is where they were chosen to go.

Certainly Paul knew his Old Testament--and he knew it far better than you (or I). But now you're suggesting you know better than Paul what Paul means?

No, I am suggesting that I know and understand the interpretation better than you because my mind is not clouded by the error of Calvinism. Therefore I can understand and see the Scriptures more objectively.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but the inconsistency with which you reason and write is quite surprising. You accuse people who can rightly divide the word of truth of twisting scripture while it is plain for everyone to see that you are making egregious errors handling the text. When correction is offered by persons who know more, all you can do is dodge.... Sad, indeed.

I am not the one who is doing the dodging.
For example, Cornelius sought after God, and yet was not saved. Who is the one doing the dodging?