Speaking in Tongues Continued

[music4Him]

Thank you you Eric Pement.

Now with this new knowledge...... (meaning I have checked it out.)
DHK and others, what say ye? About the Word being that which is perfect? In John 1:1 in the link Eric gave me says the word "Word" is Nominative Singular Masculine. Jesus is the Word~ Some has said that the written word is that which is perfect...... then if this is so then this would mean when that which is perfect or complete (every prophecy complete in the word including 2nd comming of Christ), then tongues and prophecy will cease.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Thank you you Eric Pement.

Now with this new knowledge...... (meaning I have checked it out.)
DHK and others, what say ye? About the Word being that which is perfect? In John 1:1 in the link Eric gave me says the word "Word" is Nominative Singular Masculine. Jesus is the Word~ Some has said that the written word is that which is perfect...... then if this is so then this would mean when that which is perfect or complete (every prophecy complete in the word including 2nd comming of Christ), then tongues and prophecy will cease.

As you have said: "The word "Word" is Nominative singular Masculine." Thus it cannot refer to the "perfect," which is neuter in gender. It cannot refer to Jesus Christ. There are other words that refer to the Word of God other than logos. But logos, referring directly to Christ is a masculine noun, and does not fit the neuter gender of 1Cor.13:10.

 

[D28guy]

music4Him,

(bolding mine)

"then if this is so then this would mean when that which is perfect or complete (every prophecy complete in the word including 2nd comming of Christ), then tongues and prophecy will cease."

Excellant! Good job.

(and its the truth of course!)

Blessings,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
music4Him,

(bolding mine)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"then if this is so then this would mean when that which is perfect or complete (every prophecy complete in the word including 2nd comming of Christ), then tongues and prophecy will cease."

Excellant! Good job.

(and its the truth of course!)

Blessings,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]The gift of prophecy has ceased already. It did so in the first century. For your theory to be correct, every prophecy would have to be fulfilled by the time of the Secomd Coming which of course would not be true. There will still be many unfulfilled prophecies that will never be fulfilled until after Christ comes again, and some will happen only after the millennial kingdom comes to an end. Prophecies will not cease at the Coming of Christ. Check your Bible. The gift of prophecy has ceased. But many of the prophecies written will never be fulfilled until after Christ comes, and even after Christ reigns on the earth.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
Thank you you Eric Pement.

Now with this new knowledge...... (meaning I have checked it out.)
DHK and others, what say ye? About the Word being that which is perfect? In John 1:1 in the link Eric gave me says the word "Word" is Nominative Singular Masculine. Jesus is the Word~ Some has said that the written word is that which is perfect...... then if this is so then this would mean when that which is perfect or complete (every prophecy complete in the word including 2nd comming of Christ), then tongues and prophecy will cease.

As you have said: "The word "Word" is Nominative singular Masculine." Thus it cannot refer to the "perfect," which is neuter in gender. It cannot refer to Jesus Christ. There are other words that refer to the Word of God other than logos. But logos, referring directly to Christ is a masculine noun, and does not fit the neuter gender of 1Cor.13:10. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes but DHK you said that it is the word that is perfect I agree it is the Word that is perfect.

So now are you saying it is not the word?

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by D28guy:
music4Him,

(bolding mine)

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"then if this is so then this would mean when that which is perfect or complete (every prophecy complete in the word including 2nd comming of Christ), then tongues and prophecy will cease."

Excellant! Good job.

(and its the truth of course!)

Blessings,

Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Ain't God awesome!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Yes but DHK you said that it is the word that is perfect I agree it is the Word that is perfect.

So now are you saying it is not the word?

The word "perfect" in the Greek (as well as in the English) means "complete." When that which is perfect is come, or when that which has been completed is come. Are you suggesting that Christ at one time was incomplete? No, it was the Bible that incomplete, and at a future date would be complete. That is the sense of the passage. To infer that at some time in the past Christ was incomplete would be heresy.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

We are to seek after 'faith, hope and love' because these entities/experiences will never end.

Even after the Rapture we know that during the Great Tribulation 'two witnesses' will be preaching for 3 1/2 years just before the Second Coming of Christ. Thus it is clear as clear can be that preaching will not have ended even in these horrible times in God's future calendar. Revelation 11:3 & 6 speaks of prophecy. Those who say that these gifts of the Spirit have ceased have only made this a fact in their own heart and churches.

The knowledge of he Lord will cease during the Millenium when 'all people will either love Jesus or will know of His greatness in Jerusalem [Zechariah chapter 14; Hebrews 8:10-12].

As to 'tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' one can see His work operative and alive in some Christian Churches like the Assembly of God.

When the Second Coming happens it will not be long until all sinners will be rushed into the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation20:11].

I think for most of us after we have received Christ we need to focus on the gift of 'love' toward the Lord and both sinners and the saints.

 

[Briguy]

Answering earlier question)
Romans 14
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1 cor. 2
10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 tim. 1
[12] For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
[13] Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[14] That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Hi Guys, Praying in the Holy Spirit/Ghost means to me that the Holy Spirit guides my prayer. Things are brought to memory by the Holy Spirit as well as Truths being understood. The Holy Spirit dwells within me. There is not a way I can pray without the Holy Spirit. Now I could, during prayer, ignore the Holy Spirit or saying something that is not right but I believe the Holy Spirit working in me would convict me and bring about in me what He desires. So, Praying in the Holy Spirit is to pray in Truth, joy, understanding, and love(that is putting others needs in front of your own). Well, that was a short, sweet answer. Hope it helps you to understand my perspective.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

M4H said: then tongues and prophecy will cease.

You have been shown time after time that Tongues ends at a different time. Your statement above is false. It is just wrong to ignore the evidence you have been shown on when tongues "ceases" and not offer an argument to the argument (i.e. address the Pauls verb usage for the word "cease")

In Christ,
Brian

Prophecy in Greek menas "to speak before" as in "to speak in front of" New revelations ended with the Bible. God's word was complete. No more exposing the future or tellng the plan of salvation or how to live the Christian life, it is all in The Bible and is complete. We can debate whether prophecy is still here as a gift but you need to understand what is meant by the word before you can have that debate. Prophecy can be speaking in front of one or many. In the early church new revalations and fore-telling of what was coming could be prophecy but those two ended with the completion of the Bible. If Prophecy is here today it is in the form of encouraging other believers, sharing the Gospel, etc... It is a gift of using ones words to comfort and exhort others.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Notice in Revelation 11:3 & 6 John does not say a pastor will prophecy, nor an apostle but rather prophets will 'prophesy'. I cannot write the Greek on this computer but the phonetic sound is {profateias} in verse 6 and the root word for prophecy is also found in verse 3.

In verse 6 John says that during '. . . the days of their prophecy' the will have mighty powers to demonstrate in the Temple area and they will be killed. After three days the Lord God will cause them to ascend into Heaven just as our Lord did 2,005 years ago.

There are those who would like you to believe that the days of 'prophecy' and great miracles are all in the distant past are simply misled. Not unless some of you brethren think that causing the 'rain to stop' for 3 1/2 years, or turning water into blood, or sending plagues on the enemies of God, are not mighty, future miracles invested by the Lord in Elijah and Enoch.

For those who distract the force of the Scripture by saying that 'prophecies' ended with the writings of the Apostle John are wrong in the sense that the Lord has future plans for His to mighty prophets. Oh, yes I do believe that the canon of Scripture is closed now and was closed with the visions of the Apostle John in Revelation. This being said, I Corinthians 13:8 indicates that the prophecies of these two men called, 'the two olive trees' will take place long after the close of the Christian canon of Scripture.

These two witness are given during the Great Tribulation because of what Jesus has already said in John 8:17.

Some Christians have placed God in 'their little box' and they think nothing can happen outside of their own ideas as to what the Lord will and will not do in this age of grace. Do not be too quick to limit what the Lord can do in your life and also before other people in His world. God is still supervising all that is going on in the world. His people are being purified by the fire of the Holy Spirit, and the lost are becoming more sinful, unless He convicts and convinces them of their lost souls.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[music4Him]

All I have to say in my defense is when I read 1Cor 13: 10 I understand it as Jesus comming agian. Until then nothing is complete. All prophecy isn't fullfilled yet (if you think it is check out Revelation). I could admit that I can be wrong on some of my points but I thought that is what debate is for. Even if I don't work in all the gifts of the Spirit, I will not say they are no longer for today, because I see them still working today. I will agree that I have also seen fakes who imitate the gifts. So I praise the Lord for the gift of discernment. I also am not blind, because I know the greatest gift is the gift of Salvation~

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


quote by Brian:
-------------------------------------------------
If Prophecy is here today it is in the form of encouraging other believers, sharing the Gospel, etc... It is a gift of using ones words to comfort and exhort others.
-------------------------------------------------

Although I still believe that the Holy Spirit gives us the words to speak to others to exhort and lift them up and if we are walking in the Spirit like we are told then.....

Has there ever been a time that a Brother or Sister in Christ unknowingly about your needs came up to you and told you something that was a help to a certian thing you may have been going through?

If Prophecy is here today it is in the form of encouraging other believers.......

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Notice in Revelation 11:3 & 6 John does not say a pastor will prophecy, nor an apostle but rather prophets will 'prophesy'. I cannot write the Greek on this computer but the phonetic sound is {profateias} in verse 6 and the root word for prophecy is also found in verse 3.

This is one of the lamest arguments I have seen--using the two prophets of Revelation 11 for evidence that prophecy is continuing. We are speaking of the church age, this day and age of grace--not the dispensation of law, not the Tribulation Perid, not the Millennial Kingdom, not the age of Innocence in the garden of Eden, but in this day and age of grace which is also commonly called the Church Age. If you want to go outside of this time period, start another thread and discuss law or eschatology, or whatever the topic might be. But the gifts of the spirit were given to the church, for the church age, in this day and age of grace. They were not given for the Tribulation Period, nor for any other period. Confine your arguments to the proper time period.

In verse 6 John says that during '. . . the days of their prophecy' the will have mighty powers to demonstrate in the Temple area and they will be killed. After three days the Lord God will cause them to ascend into Heaven just as our Lord did 2,005 years ago.

So what! If fulfillment of Joel's prophecy: young men and women will prophecy also. But that will be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom. Your argument is moot. It doesnt' make sense. Paul said that tongues and prophecy would cease, not continue. By using these foolish arguments you are denying what God has said through the Apostle Paul. These gifts were to cease, not to continue. You are saying that they will continue. You are contradicting the Word of God.

There are those who would like you to believe that the days of 'prophecy' and great miracles are all in the distant past are simply misled. Not unless some of you brethren think that causing the 'rain to stop' for 3 1/2 years, or turning water into blood, or sending plagues on the enemies of God, are not mighty, future miracles invested by the Lord in Elijah and Enoch.

And what great miracles that transcend the laws of nature have you seen lately? Supernatural--above the natural--transcending the natural realm or the laws of nature. Have you the power to stop the rain three and a half years? to cause the water to turn into blood? to part the Red Sea? Are you able to do the miraculous?

For those who distract the force of the Scripture by saying that 'prophecies' ended with the writings of the Apostle John are wrong in the sense that the Lord has future plans for His to mighty prophets.

What are the future plans that God has for prophets in this church age; in this day and age of grace?

Oh, yes I do believe that the canon of Scripture is closed now and was closed with the visions of the Apostle John in Revelation. This being said, I Corinthians 13:8 indicates that the prophecies of these two men called, 'the two olive trees' will take place long after the close of the Christian canon of Scripture.

And will they prophecy durintg the church age?
The Church will be raptured before the tribulation takes place. The gifts of the Spirit, includinng the gift of prophecy are gifts given to the church. It won't be there in the tribulation period. You have a very lame argument.

These two witness are given during the Great Tribulation because of what Jesus has already said in John 8:17.

So what! The church won't be there. The gifts are given to the church! The gift of prophecy has ceased.

Some Christians have placed God in 'their little box' and they think nothing can happen outside of their own ideas as to what the Lord will and will not do in this age of grace.

Some people prefer to rightly divide the Word of Truth; not simply butcher it here and there--taking Scripture out of context to try and prove an unscriptural doctrine.

Do not be too quick to limit what the Lord can do in your life and also before other people in His world. God is still supervising all that is going on in the world. His people are being purified by the fire of the Holy Spirit, and the lost are becoming more sinful, unless He convicts and convinces them of their lost souls.
Berrian, Th.D.

God can do anything he desires that is within his nature to do so. It is not within his nature to lie, or go against the promises that are written in His Word, though some here would have him to do that.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
All I have to say in my defense is when I read 1Cor 13: 10 I understand it as Jesus comming agian. Until then nothing is complete.

"When that which is perfect is come than that which is in part shall be done away."
So your argument is that when Jesus comes, that is when tongues and prophecy shall be done away. Even though we know that by Joel's prophecy, quoted by Peter in Acts 2, that tongues and prophecy will commence again in the Millennial Kingdom. It was a partial fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost. The complete fulfillment will come in the Millennial Kingdom. So, your interpretation holds no water. Tongues and prophecy will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

Paul said they would cease; not continue. That is an important statement. God knew about the Tribulation Period, and the Millennial Kingdom. Remeber that Paul, is but a scribe in the hand of God. These are God's Words. God is the author of this book. You have God contradicting himself, in fact calling him a liar when He said that these gifts would cease--you say--"God you are lying they will continue." But that is not what God said. God said they would cease. The timeframe is the Church Age. The gifts were to the Church. We are speaking not of prophecy per se, but of the gift of prophecy, not of speaking in tongues, as in the ability to do so, but the gift of speaking in tongues. These are spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the church. During the church age sometime they were to cease. They ceased near the end of the first century. They did not continue and would not continue until the end of the church century. That would make God a liar.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

O.K. DHK, please show me scripture that proves Tongues and prophecy will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

You are not talking about the two witnesses of Rev 11 are you?

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

O.K. DHK, please show me scripture that proves Tongues and prophecy will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

You are not talking about the two witnesses of Rev 11 are you?

Tam

Acts 2:16-20 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

There was a partial fulfillment of this on the Day of Pentecost. Peter said so. He said so in verse 16: "This is that which is spoken of by the prophet Joel:" Thus part of the prophecy was fulfilled then.

But there were no wonders in heaven at that time. The sun was not turned into darkness. The moon was not turned into blood. That would not happen until "that great and notable day of the Lord"--the coming of the Lord for the nation of Israel at the end of Tribulation, which would be right before the Millennial Kingdom. The end of the Tribulation period is marked by signs and wonders in the sky, as is described in Revelation, and Christ's coming to overthrow his enemies and save the Jews. After that, at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, I believe the rest of this prophecy will be fulfilled when the enemies have been overcome: "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"
This will take place in the Millennial Kingdom. Prophecies are not always uttered in chronolgical order.
DHK

 

[Link]

DHK wrote,
**This is one of the lamest arguments I have seen--using the two prophets of Revelation 11 for evidence that prophecy is continuing. We are speaking of the church age, this day and age of grace--not the dispensation of law, not the Tribulation Perid, not the Millennial Kingdom, not the age of Innocence in the garden of Eden, but in this day and age of grace which is also commonly called the Church Age. If you want to go outside of this time period, start another thread and discuss law or eschatology, or whatever the topic might be.***


This is one of the lamest arguments I have read for cessationism. I Corinthians 13 does not say that prophecy will cease and then start up again. If prophecies have ceased, then it does not make sense for us to say they will restart in the Tribulation.

Plus, we are talking about the Bible, not some end-times chart. You don't think end-times charts are inspired like the Bible do you? If the time periods and their characteristics are not supported by scripture, then what good are they?

Where does the Bible teach that there will be gifts in the Tribulation period but not in the 'church age'? Where does the Bible teach that there will be a 'church age'?

If we believe in a church age, then we should get our understanding of the way God works in that age from reading the New Testament. In the church age, God gives gifts and does miracles. You don't have any scripture that makes this a different age from the apostles. Jesus said "I shall be with you always, even until the end of the age." The age we are in is the same age he was talking about. That same age has not ended yet. We are in the same age the apostles lived in with gifts, miracles, etc.

 

[DHK]

THE CONTEXT

Joel 2:26-32 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
The only time that all anti-semetims will stop will be in the Millennial Kingdom. At that time they will never be ashamed.

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
--Again the same promise is re-enforced. They will never be ashamed, not by Hitler, not by anyone.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
It is unscriptural for women to prophecy in the church today. That gift is only for men. But in the Millennial Kingdom, it will be given to women as well. Now "suffer not a women to have authority over a man." "A woman must keep silent in the church."

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
--Jerusalem shall once again be the center of all activity in the Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Link:


This is one of the lamest arguments I have read for cessationism. I Corinthians 13 does not say that prophecy will cease and then start up again. If prophecies have ceased, then it does not make sense for us to say they will restart in the Tribulation.

No. It says that the gifts, given to the church will cease. The church will not be there in the Tribulation Period, neither will the gifts. Your argument doesn't make sense. How can you have the bark of a dog without the dog? How can you have the meow of a cat without the cat? How can you have the gifts given to the church without the church? You are not making sense. There is no gift of prophecy in the Tribulation Period. There are two prophets that prophesy. They are given the power to prophesy, not the gift of the Holy Spirit, the spiritual gift given to the church. The Church won't be there. Your argument doesn't make sense.

Plus, we are talking about the Bible, not some end-times chart. You don't think end-times charts are inspired like the Bible do you? If the time periods and their characteristics are not supported by scripture, then what good are they?

You are right; they have to be supported by Scripture. I have supported mine with Scripture; you have not. You want to try and substantiate an unbiblical doctrine through rationalization rather than Scripture, but you cannot find Biblical support for your doctrine, because there is none. There is no support whatsoever for gibberish, for example.
I don't use charts. But I can easily see how God speaks in various ways in different times through different periods. He says so. Look in Heb.1:1,2.
Has God spoken to anyone through a burning bush that burns and yet cannot be consumed, recently??

Where does the Bible teach that there will be gifts in the Tribulation period but not in the 'church age'? Where does the Bible teach that there will be a 'church age'?

What happened on the Day of Pentecost, and what was significant about it? The Holy Spirit began to indwell every believer. That will continue until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way--at the time of the rapture. When the church is raptured there will be no church (no church age), and no Holy Spirit to indwell people. He will be taken out of the way. Now is the "day of salvation." the Bible says; now is the accepted time. Now is the age of grace. Nos is the church age. When the rapture takes place there will be no church; no church age. These things are obvious.

If we believe in a church age, then we should get our understanding of the way God works in that age from reading the New Testament. In the church age, God gives gifts and does miracles. You don't have any scripture that makes this a different age from the apostles.

Heb.2:3,4 and 2Cor.12:12 say that these signs, wonders, and miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirits were for the apostles, the apostolic age. Yes I have Scripture. What you don't have is Scripture saying that they are for today.

Jesus said "I shall be with you always, even until the end of the age." The age we are in is the same age he was talking about. That same age has not ended yet. We are in the same age the apostles lived in with gifts, miracles, etc.

Jesus said he would be with us always. He didn't say the apostles would be with us always. Nor did he say that miracles, signs and wonders would be with us always. You can't read into Scripture those things that are not there. The church age continues to this day. That is true. But the miracles of Jesus were confined to Jesus day. Some of those miracles not even the apostles could duplicate.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some of us who know and have studied Biblical interpretation and hermaneutics are merely saying that the 'gifts of the Spirit' in I Corinthians 12 and 14 have not ended during the Age of Grace nor will it end at the Rapture or through the Great Tribulation and only at the Second Coming of Christ. After this there will be no need of knowledge, tongues or prophecy because Almighty God will set up His Great White Throne Judgment.

I feel sorry for some of your lack of spiritual insight in trying to push the 'gifts of the Spirit' into your own erring spiritual handbag. No, His gifts and callings are without repentance; have you also forgot this Scripture? Review Romans 11:29. Jesus message in His Book tells us that it is not over until He says it is over!! When? At the ending of all world and human history.