Speaking in Tongues Volume 3...

[Ray Berrian]

D28guy,

You said that DHK said, 'Then why do YOU keep saying that tongues are "a sign to unbelieving Jews!'

'Even if you only study the KJV it is easy enough to read I Cor. 14:22.

The Word of God says, '. . . tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, BUT TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE NOT. . . '

Does DHK really think that only JEWS/ISRAELITES are the only unbelievers on the planet earth? I think when I was about twelve years old, I understood that unbelievers includes all of humankind.

But, then if you have a clandestine theory on 'tongues' which is somehow connected to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., only then must you build up the theological wall by saying that God got so angry with Jews that He caused 'tongues' to cease.

Those poor Jewish people-- are always getting knocked around even by Christians with their innovative theories.

.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by DHK:


3. If they cannot be uttered, why do the Charismatics try to do the impossible and try to utter something which is impossible.

I knew one friend of mine who grew up in a fundamentalist church all of his life. He told me one day about an experience he had. He believed it was tongues. He was not one to promote it or cause trouble. He did believe it was no different than any other gift. What he told me it was words he did not understand. So something was uttered he did not know. Certainly it was not something he sought. From what he told me it was more of something that surprised him. So he was not one to try to speak in tongues. I know there are those in pentecostal chruches who fake it and use nonsensical jargon to act as an imposter and seem real. I do know there are pentecostal pastors who put pressure on people and who will say a person is not saved if they do not speak in tongues. I would assume they get that from Mark 16:17, ""These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;" and their interpretation of Acts 2.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

"Try again.
What sign would continue for 21 centuries?
The gift of tongues in particular was a sign to the unbelieving Jews. It was also a sign in other ways. The gift of tongues especially, more than any other gift was a sign.
There were other "sign gifts." Not all the gifts of the Spirit were "sign gifts."

Could you share with me where in the passage I gave you that God differentiates in some way regarding the gifts. When does He tell us that these gifts are temporary "sign" gifts, while those over there are gifts that will continue through the entire church age.

I cant find anywhere in that passage...or any other for that matter...where God says anything like that.

Here is the passage in question...

And you won't find it there. The Bible has 66 "books" of the Bible, not just one "chapter" with a few usable verses. You are permitted to use the rest of the Bible. No one is stopping you. I don't have to confine myself to your list.
Consider:
2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (KJV)

2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs indeed of the apostle were wrought among you in all endurance, signs, and wonders, and works of power. (Darby)
Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
--The gifts of the Holy Spirit can be taken two ways. Either every gift of the Holy Spirit was miraculous in nature (including that of faith and of helps, etc.). They would therefore differ in someway from today because they would be miraculous in nature. Or the gifts that are referred to here are the miraculous sign gifts referring back to the word "signs" which throughout the Bible refers to miracles. Signs and miracles are almost always used together in conjunction with each other, for a miracle was a sign. The miracles, particularly the miraculous gifts of the Spirit: healing, miracles, tongues, prophecy, revelatory knowledge, were all sign gifts. No man can duplicate these gifts today. That doesn't mean God doesn't heal today, nor does it mean that God doesn't do the occasional miracle today. But they aren't the norm.

Acts 5:16 is the demonstration of the gift of healing,, not a simple answer to prayer in the healing of a person, but the gift of healing where Peter was able to heal ALL who came out of Jerusalem and all the sick out all the cities round about Jerusalem. They were all healed everyone of them.
That doesn't happen today--anywhere in the world. We don't hear of it. Faith healers can't do it. (Most of them are frauds, wanting only your money). The gift has ceased. It is not in operation. Can you prove that it is. Can you point to anywhere in the world where it is taking place. The answer is an obvious no. The fact that this gift has ceased gives credence that the other gifts has ceased especially tongues since the Bible specifically tells us that it is a sign gift.

I just cant seem to find anywhere in there, or anywhere else, where Almighty God lets us know that some are only for 50 years or so, then they will vanish, but the others will continue on through the entire church age.

That depends on how you look upon Scripture. Personally I believe they all ceased. Briguy believes only the sign gifts have ceased. For the sake of this argument I decided to argue from Briguy's point of view and say that at the very least the sign gifts have ceased. But yes I do believe they all have ceased, because I do believe, that the gifts of the Spirit were "gifts" not just talents, and thus miraculous in nature. There is a gift of helps. Anyone can develop a talent of helping others today. But in the first century somehow God gave a supernatural gift to some so that in some special way they were endued with power to help people in a way that is unexplicable today. Do you understand what I am saying? Otherwise how would that be termed "a gift of the Spirit"? And how would it differ any from those who have that natural ability today?

However you have not considered all of Scripture.
You haven't seriously considered 1Cor.14:21 where it tells us that tongues are a sign for the Jews. It is a fulfillment of prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A.D.
You haven't adequately dealt with 1Cor.13:8 which plainly tells us that these gifts will cease and not continue. The Charismatics, contrary to God's Word say that they will continue. God's Word says that they will cease. I will stick with God's Word. They have ceased.

And then when I see that people have been speaking in tongues, prophesying, and experienceing miracles for 2000 years now, I put 2 and 2 together and come to a very obvious conclusion.

"I see that people have been speaking in tongues...for 2,000 years."
I really would like to meet with you. I have never met a man who is 2,000 years old!!
What is your conclusion? What is it based on? My conclusions are not based on people's experiences, but on the Word of God. Your conclusions are based on the same conclusions as the Mormons, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Voodoo worshippers, and many other false religions. They are not based on the Word of God, but on experience, an experience that is common to many pagans.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

I think the 'word of knowledge' as noted in I Corinthians 12:8 is demonstrated in some Pentecostal preachers who like Dr. Pat Robertson, says, "The Lord has just shown me that someones has been cured of cancer and is sitting in her living room wearing a pink dress; call me and confirm with me that you are healed."

The age of God's miracles are not over except to people who sit in unbelief and deny 'these gifts of the Spirit.' The Lord will not work through vessels who denegrate His mighty power and will.
Many of us do not have these gifts because as verse 11 says the are sovereignly given to men of God according to the will of the Lord.

You deny the Word of God as to 'tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' for this age along with people who the Lord has touched by His Spirit and have fallen under His mighty power.

We read you the Word of God and you routinely deny not only I Cor. 12 & 14, but probably even testimonies like other people have told you about in recent days on this board.

'Be not faithless, but believing.'

By your 'benchmark' maybe water baptism ended in 70 A.D. too for the Jewish people. Anyone can be arbitrary if they want to discount or block out a chapter here and there in the Word of God--the Bible.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Why do you, and so many who cling to this false doctrine, refuse to see it when someone says, "God still performs miracles"? You imply that someone here has stated that God no longer performs miracles, and so many people, when they are shown that the sign-gifts are not for today, automatically lump them together with direct mircales perfomed by God Almighty.

No one here has said that God quit performing miracles.

I certainly hope that you are not intentionally misrepresenting what has been said.

Edited to add: Also, no one here has said the gifts of the Spirit have ceased, either, although I've seen you imply that they have said that.

Please quit misrepresenting things that have been said.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Hope of Glory,

Did not DHK say, 'What sign would continue for 21 centuries? The gift of tongues in particular was a sign to the unbelieving Jews.'

The 'gift of tongues' is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit ministered by the Lord to His church.

.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

I think the 'word of knowledge' as noted in I Corinthians 12:8 is demonstrated in some Pentecostal preachers who like Dr. Pat Robertson, says, "The Lord has just shown me that someones has been cured of cancer and is sitting in her living room wearing a pink dress; call me and confirm with me that you are healed."

Which is quite fraudulent. The person is never healed. Some people think they are--power of suggestion. Then a day later they are back at the doctor's office re-filling their prescription again. The incidents are all anecdotal, and nothing is verifiable. There have been no verifiable healings done by Pat Robertson. (that could be verified by doctors). There have been no organic healings; only pshyo-somatic healings, which aren't really healings at all.

The age of God's miracles are not over except to people who sit in unbelief and deny 'these gifts of the Spirit.' The Lord will not work through vessels who denegrate His mighty power and will.

The Lord work's through His Word, not contrary to it. Sorry that you don't believe.

Many of us do not have these gifts because as verse 11 says the are sovereignly given to men of God according to the will of the Lord.

You have your verb tenses mixed up. They were sovereignly given to men. These sign miracles ceased long ago.

You deny the Word of God as to 'tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' for this age along with people who the Lord has touched by His Spirit and have fallen under His mighty power.

It is not I that denies the Word of God. Do you know the difference in meaning between the words: "cease" and "continue"? You don't seem to demonstrate it in your posts. The one that fell the mightiest in the Bible under the mighty hand of God was Lucifer. He fell from Heaven to the earth. He fell as a beautiful upright standing serpent, to one crawling and eating the dust of the earth. He will fall again and be brought down into the depths of Hell. This is a picture of "slain in the spirit."

We read you the Word of God and you routinely deny not only I Cor. 12 & 14, but probably even testimonies like other people have told you about in recent days on this board.

Contrariwise, I believe I have quoted more from these chapters than you have, and yet you believe not. Read through your posts. You will find that you have quoted me experiences (ex. AOG). Whereas I have quoted you the Word of God. You have used experience as your authority. I have used the Bible as my authority. There is a big difference.

'Be not faithless, but believing.'

Believing what? People's experience over the Word of God? Never. Just because the Mormons and Hindus speak in tongues, does that mean I should to? Good Charismatic reasoning isn't it?

By your 'benchmark' maybe water baptism ended in 70 A.D. too for the Jewish people. Anyone can be arbitrary if they want to discount or block out a chapter here and there in the Word of God--the Bible.

Baptism was not a judgement was it. Neither was it the sign of a judgement. It was symbolic of our death to sin and our resurrection to a new life in Christ. I am sorry for your misunderstanding of Scripture. You need to study it more. Tongues on the otherhand was a sign to the Jews. All that one has to do is to compare Isaiah 28:11,12 with 1Cor.14:21,22. But you refuse to do an objective Bible study on those passages of Scripture don't you?
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'Which is quite fraudulent. The person is never healed. Some people think they are--power of suggestion. Then a day later they are back at the doctor's office re-filling their prescription again. The incidents are all anecdotal, and nothing is verifiable. There have been no verifiable healings done by Pat Robertson. (that could be verified by doctors). There have been no organic healings; only pshyo-somatic healings, which aren't really healings at all.'

Your 'gibberish' above is hardly convincing. You do not have personal interviews or medical records of these people you claim you know who have never been healed.

As to the 'word of knowledge' it is a gift of the Holy Spirit and worthy of your thinking and belief even if you never experience it.

People aren't sending money to Dr. Robertson's television programming or Trinity Broadcasting because they are not receiving things spiritual and physical healings also.

My only hope is you are not a pastor or a S.S. teacher, so you can defraud people of what He has given to His church as found in the Word of God.

.

 

[Hope of Glory]

It's impossible to prove a negative, but can you find one single medical record proving that someone was healed of something physical?

Also, no one here has said that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased, nor has anyone said that miracles, including healing, by God have ceased.

In fact, several of us have pointed out that the gifts of the Spirit are in effect today, just not the incoherent babblings and other chicanery (such as that practiced by Pat Robertson) that so many people call "gifts of the spirit".

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some on the board talk as though the alleged withdrawal of the 'gifts of the Spirit' were a judgment of God against Israel for rejecting Christ. This is error.

The Scripture indicates that the Lord is not prejudicial against women or Jews and that He neither overvalues or undervalues women, Jews, children or any particular nationality. God's love goes out to all sinners and so withdrawing these gifts from the Israelites would have been prejudicial. [Deuteronomy 10:17 & Romans 1:11]. The Lord punished Israel for rejecting Him, by using His providence in causing the Fall of Jerusalem, but it would be against His attribute of justice to withdraw His spiritual gifts from His own national people and to retain them for Gentiles. [Deuteronomy 10:17 & Romans 1:11].

The Lord will not withhold any good things from people who He can bring into the faith. He is better than any earthly father, the Scripture says. [Romans 2:4].

Neither prophecy, tongues or knowledge has passed away yet. [I Corinthians 13:8]. Most churches have a pastor who prophecies/preaches about salvation and future events in God's calendar of historical events.

Some churches allow the gift of 'tongues' with the 'interpretation of tongues' for the edification of God's people. [I Corinthians chapters 12 & 14].

As to 'knowledge' it is not 'vanishing away' in fact, Daniel the prophet says that 'knowledge will be on the increase' in the closing years of human history. Secular knowledge is multiplying so fast we cannot keep up with it. As to spiritual knowledge all Christians are still being illuminated and made aware of basic and the deepest truths of His Word. This may be in the area of eschatology or understanding the deep meaning of the Book of Revelation. [Daniel 12:4].

.

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

In an effort to prove that the sign gifts ended with the original Apostles dying away, you said...

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (KJV)

But we have to take into consideration all of Gods scripture, not just some scripture taken in isolation. Scripture must fit together like a hand in a glove.

When we turn to the last chapter of Mark we find that those "signs of an Apostle" will continue through all of those who are believers through the centuries...

"16:15
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned....

And what will those "believe" be doing?...

16:17
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

16:18
they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Why did Jesus not say...

"And these signs will follow you 11, plus one more to be added later..."?

Why? Because these gifts of the Spirit will continue on beyond them.

Jesus specifically said...

"And these signs will follow those who believe"

Because of what Jesus Christ has said concerning this topic, we can only conclude that as long as there are believers in Jesus Christ these gifts of the Spirit will continue to be in evidence.

However you have not considered all of Scripture.

You haven't seriously considered 1Cor.14:21 where it tells us that tongues are a sign for the Jews.

Lets take a look at 1 Cor 14:21 and 22...

"14:21
In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.

14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe."

He quotes from the Law there, from what we call the the old testament.

Of course, (as I'm sure you know) one of the most important principles of scripture interpretation is that we are to interpret the old testament scriptures "in light of" (or "through the eyes" of) the new testament scriptures.

And right after your vs 21 comes vs 22...

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

If you are going to jump on the "sign" purpose of tongues (there are other purposes of course), then the scriptures identify any one who is an unbeliever as being possibly influenced by the "sign"...not just Jews.

But even if it were just Jews, there are still unbelieving Jews in the world, so the sign would still be in affect anyway.

It is a fulfillment of prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Couldnt possibly be.

Everyone in the world would have to be a believer in 70AD for that to be true.

You haven't adequately dealt with 1Cor.13:8 which plainly tells us that these gifts will cease and not continue.

I...and others...have dealt with that many times. And we have done it adequately.

Here it is again...

"13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."

Tongues will cease when we see Christ face to face...when we are in heaven.

The Charismatics, contrary to God's Word say that they will continue.

No....those who are anti-tongues, contrary to Gods word, say they ceased in 70AD.

God's Word says that they will cease.

Of course it does. When we see Him face to face and when we will know as we are known.

In eternity.

"I will stick with God's Word."

But you arent.

They have ceased.

Then why are millions of Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance, and have been for 2000 years after 70AD?

You quoted me...

"I see that people have been speaking in tongues...for 2,000 years."

And then said...

I really would like to meet with you. I have never met a man who is 2,000 years old!!

The word "see" can be meant symbolically, as I obviously meant it.

I "see" that people are speaking in other tongues today, and I also "see" through documentation the christians have been speaking in other tongues in centuries past.

Grace and peace,

Mike

[ January 09, 2006, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]

 

[standingfirminChrist]

TONGUES SPEAKING

The modern Pentecostal movement, from its inception at the turn of the century, has emphasized the belief that all of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the N.T. are to be exercised today. One of the gifts frequently exalted in the Pentecostal movement is the gift of tongues. In fact, the Pentecostal movement is often called "the tongues movement" because of this emphasis. There are five common errors promoted by the Pentecostal movement pertaining to tongues. Not all Pentecostal churches promote all of these errors, but these are very commonly held.

ERROR # 1: TONGUES SPEAKING IS A PRIMARY EVIDENCE OF HOLY SPIRIT FILLING.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

(1) In the book of Acts there are many mentions of Christians being filled with the Spirit, but only one time is tongues speaking mentioned. It is ridiculous, then, to try to make tongues speaking the primary evidence of Holy Spirit filling. A survey of Acts shows the following evidences present when believers were filled with the Spirit: Preaching in foreign languages (Ac 2:4-11). Witnessing of Christ with boldness (Ac 4:8-12,31-33). Willingness to serve God's people (Ac 6:3-5). Christ-like attitude toward's one's enemies (Ac 7:55-60). Readiness to obey God (Ac 9:17-20). Winning men to Christ (Ac 11:24). Resisting false teachers (Ac 13:8-10). Joy in the Lord (Ac 13:52). (2) The evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 5-6 does not mention tongues at all. The marks of Spirit filling are said to be spiritual relationships (Eph 5:19,21-33; 6:1-9), worship (Eph 5:19), resisting Satan (Eph 6:11-18), and an effective prayer life (Eph 5:18-20). To connect spiritual gifts with Spirit filling is unscriptural. (3) 1Co 12:13 says all have been baptized by the Holy Spirit but the same chapter says not all speak in tongues (1Co 12:30).

ERROR # 2: TONGUES SPEAKING IS FOR EVERY CHRISTIAN.

In most Pentecostal groups every Christian is encouraged to speak in tongues. The pressure to do this varies from group to group, but tongues speaking is definitely upheld as something desirable and important for the Christian life.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

The N.T. says that different gifts are given to different Christians, and no one gift is given to every believer. Paul plainly taught that not every Christian spoke in tongues even in the first century (1Co 12:4,7-12,28-30).

ERROR # 3: TONGUES SHOULD BE SOUGHT BY THE CHRISTIAN.

Though there are exceptions, most Pentecostal churches teach that the Christian should seek to speak in tongues. In fact, the pressure to do so can be intense. Countless books have been written purporting to teach people how to speak in tongues.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

(1) Paul told the Corinthian believers that they should covet the "best gifts" (1Co 12:31). He listed the gifts in order of importance in verses 28-30 and tongues was at the bottom! It is strange that a gift which the Apostles considered the lest important has become so exalted in the modern Pentecostal movement. (2) The disciples did not seek to speak in tongues. In every instance in which Christians spoke in tongues in the N.T. the tongues were sovereignly given. In no instance were the recipients trying to speak in tongues. (3) The Bible never tells the Christian to seek to speak in tongues. Not once is there such instruction given by the Apostles. (4) There is no instruction in the Bible about HOW to speak in tongues. If tongues speaking was important for the Christian life and if it was a good thing for every Christian to speak in tongues, surely God would have plainly instructed us in how to do such a thing! (5) The Pentecostal/Charismatic method of speaking in tongues is unscriptural and dangerous. When a person accepts the idea that tongues speaking is a needed and helpful thing for the spiritual life, he then asks how tongues can be received. The Pentecostal and Charismatic preacher instructs such a one simply to open his mouth and start muttering words but without using normal language. God is supposed to take control of the tongue. There is not a hint of such a practice in the N.T. The Bible warns Christians that there are deceiving spirits which attempt to influence Christians and that can appear as angels of light and ministers of God (2Co 11:13-15; Mt 24:24). Paul warned the Corinthians that they were in danger of receiving false spirits because of their carnal, undiscerning condition (2Co 11:3-4). The Christian cannot be possessed by evil spirits, but we can certainly be influenced by them. Thus the Bible warns us to be sober and vigilant (1Pe 4:7; 5:8).

ERROR # 4: TONGUES IS A HEAVENLY PRAYER LANGUAGE.

When it is noted by outsiders that the modern tongues spoken commonly in Pentecostal/Charismatic circles is not a known earthly language, it is replied that they are speaking in a heavenly prayer language.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

The tongues spoken in the early churches were real earthly languages (Ac 2:6-10). According to 1Co 14:2, tongues speaking was the giving forth of mysteries, which refers to revelation. The term "mysteries" in the N.T. refers to things that were hidden in O.T. times but are now brought to light (Ro 16:25-26; 1Co 2:7,10; Eph 3:3-5; Col 1:26). This is what we see on the day of Pentecost. Those that heard the disciples speak in tongues on that day said, "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" (Ac 2:11). Biblical tongues were languages, not some sort of unintelligible mutters.

ERROR # 5: TONGUES IS FOR PERSONAL EDIFICATION.

Tongues speaking in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is said to be something the Christian can do privately to edify himself.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

God plainly tells us the purpose for tongues. It was to give a sign to the nation Israel regarding the fact that God was doing this new thing in starting the church (1Co 14:20-22). Paul tells us that tongues was a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isa 28:11-12.

In conclusion, the following are the reasons why I know that modern tongues are not biblical tongues:

1. Biblical tongues were a sign to Israel regarding the founding of the church and ceased when the foundation of the church was completed (1Co 13:8-9; 14:20-22; Eph 2:20).

2. Biblical tongues were bound by apostolic direction (no women speaking, by course, interpretation, no confusion, etc.) (1Co 14:1-40). The practice of "tongues" in modern times is not restrained in this way.

3. Biblical tongues were real earthly languages (Ac 2:6-10).

4. Biblical tongues were revelatory messages (1Co 14:2; 2:7,10; Eph 3:3-5).

5. Biblical tongues were not sought but were sovereignly given by God (1Co 12:11).

6. Biblical tongues were the least important spiritual gift (1Co 12:28-30).

7. Biblical tongues were not spoken by all Christians (1Co 12:30).

8. Biblical tongues were not received in a passive state (1Pe 5:8).

[See Assemblies of God, Charismatic, Holy Spirit.]

Way of Life Encyclopedia

 

[D28guy]

standingfirminChrist...

You posted concerning 5 percieved errors in the Charismatic world...

ERROR # 1: TONGUES SPEAKING IS A PRIMARY EVIDENCE OF HOLY SPIRIT FILLING.

Not all Charismatics/Pentecostals believe this.

ERROR # 2: TONGUES SPEAKING IS FOR EVERY CHRISTIAN.

Not all Charismatics/Pentecostals believe this.

ERROR # 3: TONGUES SHOULD BE SOUGHT BY THE CHRISTIAN.

Every christian should certainly desire all that God has for them. I have shared in prayer with God many times that I want anything He has for me. If its tongues...which up till now I have not recieved...I will gladly recieve it at any time He wants to bestow it upon me.

So far I havent recieved that gift, and thats fine with me. One of the others of that nature I have been gifted with however.

ERROR # 4: TONGUES IS A HEAVENLY PRAYER LANGUAGE.

Only sometimes. Not all the time.

The word of God:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels..."

"He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."

ERROR # 5: TONGUES IS FOR PERSONAL EDIFICATION.

The word of God:

He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him. However, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

He who prophesies speaks edification and exortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church"

Notice that there is no absolutly no rebuke there to the one speaking privately and being personally edified. It is only saying the other is better in a gathered group.

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Your 'gibberish' above is hardly convincing.

Charismatics utter gibberish; I don't. If you notice I speak to you in a language (not gibberish) called English. I know a few others. Do you have a preference?

You do not have personal interviews or medical records of these people you claim you know who have never been healed.

Another false prophecy? Another stoning perhaps? You are really digging a pit for yourself here. Why are are you trying to tell me what I do or don't know. You are playing the role of a prophet, a false one at that.
In fact I have copies of interviews, testimonies of people who went to such meetigs and were never healed. Pay attention to the news. Documentaries have been done on these people. They are in the limelight all the time. They have been exposed many many times, time after time. Journalists have records. Doctors have records. The media at large have records. Various theologians have records, and I have access to them all because they have been so widely published. These men have been so widely and often exposed it is not funny any more. It is sad that people waste and throw their money away.
It is sad that people like Peter Popoff is still on the air, night after night, selling his miracle water from Russia. He can tell you what kind of ailment you have. You fill out a card before you enter the auditiorium with your personal info on it. Mrs. Popoff then has this information. Peter Popoff has a hidden receiver in an earpiece that he wears. His wife communicates the "ailment" that is on the card to Peter via the reciever in the earpiece. That is some Holy Spirit that is working there, isn't it?

They all have their scams, one after another.
The Bible says:
"They make merchandise of the people." How true that is.

As to the 'word of knowledge' it is a gift of the Holy Spirit and worthy of your thinking and belief even if you never experience it.

Certainly it is worthy of thinking and study, and I have studied it quite thoroughly. Study the context of it in 1Cor.13:8-13. It ceased at the end of the first century.

People aren't sending money to Dr. Robertson's television programming or Trinity Broadcasting because they are not receiving things spiritual and physical healings also.

Those poor souls are sending money because they are being deceived. People are so gullible. Remember all the ones that followed Jim Jones? I guess they got a real blessing out of that too, eh?
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

In an effort to prove that the sign gifts ended with the original Apostles dying away, you said...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (KJV)

But we have to take into consideration all of Gods scripture, not just some scripture taken in isolation. Scripture must fit together like a hand in a glove.

When we turn to the last chapter of Mark we find that those "signs of an Apostle" will continue through all of those who are believers through the centuries...</font>[/QUOTE]That is not so.
The command of the Great Commission is given to the apostles and is applicable to all Christians as is evidenced in other Scripture such as Mat.28:19,20.
Following the Great Commission Christ makes a statement to the Apostles only. And then he ascends to heaven. Here is what he says to the Apostles for the Apostolic Age, which is not repeated anywhere else in connection with the Great Commission.

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

These signs shall follow: casting out demons, speaking in new languages, taking up serpents, drinking poisionous things, healing the sick.
Do ALL of these things happen today. Can you readliy without fear guzzle down a can of draino, a half liter of HCL, etc.? Why not? Because these signs were for the Apostolic Age. They were directed to the Apostles. Throughout the Scriptures we find that signs and miracles were the "sign" of an Apostle and the Apostle's message that it was from God. These miracles, these sign gifts authenticated both the messenger and the messenger's gift during that first century--the Apostolic century. After the first century both the Apostles were dead, and the Word of God was complete, thus signs were no longer needed.
"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign..."

However you have not considered all of Scripture.

You haven't seriously considered 1Cor.14:21 where it tells us that tongues are a sign for the Jews.

Lets take a look at 1 Cor 14:21 and 22...

"14:21
In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.

14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe."

He quotes from the Law there, from what we call the the old testament.

Of course, (as I'm sure you know) one of the most important principles of scripture interpretation is that we are to interpret the old testament scriptures "in light of" (or "through the eyes" of) the new testament scriptures.

And right after your vs 21 comes vs 22...

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

If you are going to jump on the "sign" purpose of tongues (there are other purposes of course), then the scriptures identify any one who is an unbeliever as being possibly influenced by the "sign"...not just Jews.

But even if it were just Jews, there are still unbelieving Jews in the world, so the sign would still be in affect anyway.

You have two statements that are not true.
1. The unbelievers are restricted to the Jews because of the context. The two verses go together. The unbelievers of verse 22 are the Jews of verse 21. You just can't isolate verse 22 and say that they are any unbelievers.
2. You again take the verse out of context when you assume you can apply the verse to unbelieving Jews today. The sign of tongues was to unbelieving Jews of the first century, otherwise how would it be a sign at all? You would be contradicting Scripture. When Isaiah prophecied a virgin would conceive and bring forth a son, Isaiah didn't mean that a virgin would bring forth a son in each successive century. It was a one-time event. A sign happens once, and then the sign is taken out of the way. The sign happened in the first century, and then it was taken out of the way. It happened during the time of the first century Jews, those very ones that had crucified the Lord. Peter points to those ones in both chapter two and three. The sign was for them. It was not for Jews of all times. It was for the Jews of that century. It was a sign for that generation of Jews. Now the sign has been removed. There is no more need for it. It has ceased; been removed. There is no gift of languages any more. What goes on today is not the Biblical gift of languages.

It is a fulfillment of prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Couldnt possibly be.
Everyone in the world would have to be a believer in 70AD for that to be true.

You don't make sense. What on earth would lead you to make that conclusion?

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
1. When Christ came; they rejected Him.
2. When Christ offered them the Kingdom, they rejected it.
3. They crufified their Messiah out of jealously.
4. When the gospel was once again preached to them after the resurrection by spirit-filled apostles, with the sign of tongues (a sign they were well aware would come), they rejected it anyway, and thus judgement came, as they knew it would by the prophecy in Isaiah said it would.

You haven't adequately dealt with 1Cor.13:8 which plainly tells us that these gifts will cease and not continue.

I...and others...have dealt with that many times. And we have done it adequately.

Here it is again...

"13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."

Tongues will cease when we see Christ face to face...when we are in heaven.

1. "that which is perfect" is a neuter noun, and is impossible to refer to Christ. I don't know how many times I have to stress that.
2. Verse 8 says plainly that they will cease, not continue. That in itself tells us that you are wrong. A sign doesn't continue for 21 centuries.
3. A comparison is being made between love (which does last forever), hope and faith (which will end at the coming of Christ), and the temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and revelatory knowledge (which in comparison to the others must of a necessity must end before the others--before the coming of Christ.) Logically, they ended at the end of the first century.
4. The entire context is that of God's revelation. God's revelation was completed at the end of the first century. The temporary gifts that gave God's revelation ceased when the entirety of God's revelation was completed (at the end of the first century).
Have you been able to refute these points yet? I don't think so.

The Charismatics, contrary to God's Word say that they will continue.

No....those who are anti-tongues, contrary to Gods word, say they ceased in 70AD.

And for good reason. We can explain why we say it. But you only answer: no we don't believe you.

God's Word says that they will cease.

Of course it does. When we see Him face to face and when we will know as we are known.

Check out James 1:22ff. James uses a mirror in the same way that Paul does--reflecting God's Word. It is the same metaphor.

They have ceased.

Then why are millions of Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance, and have been for 2000 years after 70AD?

That is only your wishful thinking. The modern "tongue-speaking movement began in the beginning of the 20th century. According to Charismatic theology either the Holy Spirit was dead or dormant for at least 1800 years!! Which? Did Spurgeon, William Carey, Adoniram Judson, etc. not have the Holy Spirit? All these great men of God, that lived prior to the "Kansas City Prophets," and their ilk. You are badly deceived. Speaking in gibberish is not speaking in tongues or languages.

You quoted me...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"I see that people have been speaking in tongues...for 2,000 years."

And then said...

I really would like to meet with you. I have never met a man who is 2,000 years old!!

The word "see" can be meant symbolically, as I obviously meant it.

I "see" that people are speaking in other tongues today, and I also "see" through documentation the christians have been speaking in other tongues in centuries past.</font>[/QUOTE]Only in the first century. Past that heretical pagans and/or cults spoke in ecstatic utterances as the Charismatics do today. It doesn't say much for the Charismatic movement.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

16:18
they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

You know, I see people all the time supposedly speaking in tongues. When you press them for the gibberish, they explain it away as "tongues of angels". There are plenty of them, and they've all experienced this and "too bad you're rejecting God's gifts". The list goes on and one, but the one that is easiest to fake is the one they all possess.

I have never, not one single time, seen one of them turn up a bottle of Dran-O.

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

Just some comments from your reply to Ray Berrian. His reponse will of course be much more comprehensive and probably vastly superior to mine.

Concerning words of knowledge from the 700 Club, and/or being healed, Ray said...

You do not have personal interviews or medical records of these people you claim you know who have never been healed.

And you responded...

"Another false prophecy? Another stoning perhaps? You are really digging a pit for yourself here. Why are are you trying to tell me what I do or don't know. You are playing the role of a prophet, a false one at that.
In fact I have copies of interviews, testimonies of people who went to such meetigs and were never healed. Pay attention to the news. Documentaries have been done on these people."

Yep. And all of that by people whith an agenda that is clearly to seek out those who werent healed and to publicise that in order to discredit these people.

"It is sad that people like Peter Popoff is still on the air, night after night, selling his miracle water from Russia.

Peter Popoff is a phony. No doubt about that. But not all are like that.

"Those poor souls are sending money because they are being deceived. People are so gullible."

I personally know some people who have experienced 100% complete healing through having hands layed on them by those gifted in that area, and one while having her exact sickness literally disappear as it was spoken of by Pat Robertson. These people whom I know personally where not plaqued with some psychosymatic non-disease or anything like that.

They were literally very sick, and they were healed by faith in Jesus Christ. You can disbelieve to your hearts content, but I know these people, they are credible, they were sick, and they were miraculously healed.

Praise God! \o/

Mike

 

[D28guy]

DHK.

I said...

But we have to take into consideration all of Gods scripture, not just some scripture taken in isolation. Scripture must fit together like a hand in a glove.

When we turn to the last chapter of Mark we find that those "signs of an Apostle" will continue through all of those who are believers through the centuries...

And you said...

That is not so.
The command of the Great Commission is given to the apostles and is applicable to all Christians as is evidenced in other Scripture such as Mat.28:19,20.
Following the Great Commission Christ makes a statement to the Apostles only."

But the teaching he gave them is applicable beyond that. Good grief, brother, when Jesus said to Nicodemous only that "You must be born again", did it only apply to Nicodemous only?

Of course not. And what Christ said to the Apostles applies beyond them. We know that by simply reading what Christ said...

""16:15
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned....
16:17
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

16:18
they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

"These signs will follow...those...who...believe"

In spite of the fact that DHK says...

"These signs will follow the Apostles"

The Lord Jesus Christ said...

"These signs will follow those who believe."

" These signs shall follow: casting out demons, speaking in new languages, taking up serpents, drinking poisionous things, healing the sick.
Do ALL of these things happen today."

Yes. Demons are cast out. Some believers speak in tongues. Some believers have faced certain death, yet not died.(Some have even been bit by deadly serpents) Some believers have drank something that should have killed them but it didnt. And miraculous healing still occures.

Can you readliy without fear guzzle down a can of draino, a half liter of HCL, etc.?"

Not deliberately

Why not?

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God"

(Are you suggesting that people tempt God???)

I quoted this passage...

"Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

And then said...

"If you are going to jump on the "sign" purpose of tongues (there are other purposes of course), then the scriptures identify any one who is an unbeliever as being possibly influenced by the "sign"...not just Jews.

You then said...

"1. The unbelievers are restricted to the Jews because of the context. The two verses go together. The unbelievers of verse 22 are the Jews of verse 21. You just can't isolate verse 22 and say that they are any unbelievers.

I most certainly can. Almighty God wrote the scriptures and HE is the one who made the change.

You again take the verse out of context when you assume you can apply the verse to unbelieving Jews today. The sign of tongues was to unbelieving Jews of the first century, otherwise how would it be a sign at all? You would be contradicting Scripture. When Isaiah prophecied a virgin would conceive and bring forth a son, Isaiah didn't mean that a virgin would bring forth a son in each successive century.

The virgin birth of Christ is still every bit the miracle now that it was 2000 years ago. We still use that when witnessing as an evidence to Christs divinity.

1. "that which is perfect" is a neuter noun, and is impossible to refer to Christ. I don't know how many times I have to stress that.

Its not Christ. Its when we are with Christ in eternity.

"2. Verse 8 says plainly that they will cease, not continue."

I agree that they will cease. We have not reached that time yet.

That in itself tells us that you are wrong. A sign doesn't continue for 21 centuries.

If God says it does...then it does. (There is still the rainbow in the sky when it rains isnt there? That was a sign, and God is still giving it, and honoring it.

The modern "tongue-speaking movement began in the beginning of the 20th century. According to Charismatic theology either the Holy Spirit was dead or dormant for at least 1800 years!!

Its been documented that Gods people have spoken in tongues from the day of pentecost until today. All that happened at the great Azusa St revival was a wonderful outpouring, resulting in a great renewal of this gift in great numbers, after the gift being more rare at various times. It has never ceased.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Hope of Glory,

You know, I see people all the time supposedly speaking in tongues. When you press them for the gibberish, they explain it away as "tongues of angels".

Well, what do you want them to do, lie? They are giving you an honest answer. They are not "explaining anything away."

There are plenty of them, and they've all experienced this and "too bad you're rejecting God's gifts". The list goes on and one, but the one that is easiest to fake is the one they all possess.

And you can read their hearts?

I have never, not one single time, seen one of them turn up a bottle of Dran-O.

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord your God"

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

I just cant believe I am actually reading posts by christians...2 of them...who want other christians to "put God to the test" and "Tempt the Lord thy God" by deliberately drinking poison.

In direct disobedience to Christ when He said...

"It is written again 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God'."

Satan was suggesting that Christ deliberatly throw himself from an exceedingly high place since God said He would would send angels to protect Him.

Sadly,

Mike