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Speaking in Tongues Volume 3...
- Thread starter D28guy
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
DHK,
You said, 'Mat.7:20--By their fruit you shall know them.
The fruit refers to doctrine, not numbers.'
You said, 'Mat.7:20--By their fruit you shall know them.
The fruit refers to doctrine, not numbers.'
Ray Berrian
New Member
gb93433,
You said, 'As with any church or pastor which would abuse God given gifts. Not every preacher preaches according to the Spirit and message of God. Some preach out of a void of a lack of study and huff and puff the same old tired message of their own.'
You said, 'As with any church or pastor which would abuse God given gifts. Not every preacher preaches according to the Spirit and message of God. Some preach out of a void of a lack of study and huff and puff the same old tired message of their own.'
.
That does not make disciples. That may only fill them up with intellectual knowledge and not move them. Making disciples is teaching them to be obedient. That is not done very well by preaching to them. If it were, a lot parents would be very successful by yelling at their kids.
Ray Berrian
New Member
DHK,
I follow your line of thinking.
As to Mother Teresa you use the word 'facing the condemnation of God . . . ' So is it your view that she though a good person did not go to Heaven?
I have heard her speak of her love for Jesus. Does this not count as real faith in Christ? I realize there was a lot of wrong doctrine in her thinking. In this we agree that the final authority is in the Bible.
I follow your line of thinking.
As to Mother Teresa you use the word 'facing the condemnation of God . . . ' So is it your view that she though a good person did not go to Heaven?
I have heard her speak of her love for Jesus. Does this not count as real faith in Christ? I realize there was a lot of wrong doctrine in her thinking. In this we agree that the final authority is in the Bible.
Ray Berrian
New Member
gb93433,
I agree that preaching is important and also teaching. Surely, in our day we need to remind Christians to be obedient to the Lord.
Dr. Stanley who preaches out of Georgia does all three things in his messages.
My messages preached were not just to the mind but to the inner person of the Christian also. I preached repentance and obedience in the every day life of the believer.
I agree that preaching is important and also teaching. Surely, in our day we need to remind Christians to be obedient to the Lord.
Dr. Stanley who preaches out of Georgia does all three things in his messages.
My messages preached were not just to the mind but to the inner person of the Christian also. I preached repentance and obedience in the every day life of the believer.
Ray,
DHK can speak for himself of course, and probably better than I can, but I'll add my thoughts...
It has been documented that at one time someone asked her if she makes many converts as she goes about her work with the poor.(Very commendable work, I might add, but we are not saved by doing good works)
Her response was something like this...
"Oh, I dont concern myself with things like that. If the work I do causes a Catholic to be a better Catholic, or a Buddhist to be a better Buddhist, or a Hindu a better Hindu, then as far as I am concerned I have made a convert."
That indicates that she did not have a clue as to what the saving gospel of Jesus Christ is, much less been saved by it.
The same with Pope John Paul the 2nd. He held prayer gatherings at Assisi where he invited Catholics, Evangelicals, Sikhs, Hindus, Zoroastrians and Voodoo practitioners to join together in prayer for peace in the world, and he referred to them all as his spiritual brothers.
Abomidable. Unimaginable. Unthinkable.
There is a big difference between that and "in house" disagreements that brothers and sisters have regarding things like speaking in tongues or Calvinisn vs Arminianism.
Being wrong in areas where the Catholic Church is wrong will cause people to never become a brother or sister in the 1st place...no matter how religious they might be...and send them to hell.
I hope thats not the case regarding Mother Teresa or Pope John Paul II, but again...there is grave concern. I believe there is a much MUCH greater chance that they were both lost when they passed then that they somehow stumbled *accidently* upon saving faith just before they passed...after decades of Catholic indoctrination.
Lets hope they did find Christ legitimetly at some point.
Grace and peace,
Mike
DHK can speak for himself of course, and probably better than I can, but I'll add my thoughts...
Personally, I hope she went to heaven. I dont want anyone to be condemned. But Mother Teresa was a very committed Catholic, which places her salvation in grave doubt, considering the Catholic Church teachs and proclaims a false gospel.
It has been documented that at one time someone asked her if she makes many converts as she goes about her work with the poor.(Very commendable work, I might add, but we are not saved by doing good works)
Her response was something like this...
"Oh, I dont concern myself with things like that. If the work I do causes a Catholic to be a better Catholic, or a Buddhist to be a better Buddhist, or a Hindu a better Hindu, then as far as I am concerned I have made a convert."
That indicates that she did not have a clue as to what the saving gospel of Jesus Christ is, much less been saved by it.
The same with Pope John Paul the 2nd. He held prayer gatherings at Assisi where he invited Catholics, Evangelicals, Sikhs, Hindus, Zoroastrians and Voodoo practitioners to join together in prayer for peace in the world, and he referred to them all as his spiritual brothers.
Abomidable. Unimaginable. Unthinkable.
But Jehovahs Wittnesses and Mormons do the same thing.
It means she has been impacted in some way, maybe just emotionally, by Jesus Christ. I remember growing up as a Catholic and being impacted emotionally by Christ dying for my sins (looking at that wretched Catholic crucifix will do that) all during those years but I didnt know the Lord from Daffy Duck.
The Catholic Church has tons of wrong doctrine regarding foundational things such as how we are justified in Gods eyes and where we are to turn for authoritative truth.
There is a big difference between that and "in house" disagreements that brothers and sisters have regarding things like speaking in tongues or Calvinisn vs Arminianism.
Being wrong in areas where the Catholic Church is wrong will cause people to never become a brother or sister in the 1st place...no matter how religious they might be...and send them to hell.
I hope thats not the case regarding Mother Teresa or Pope John Paul II, but again...there is grave concern. I believe there is a much MUCH greater chance that they were both lost when they passed then that they somehow stumbled *accidently* upon saving faith just before they passed...after decades of Catholic indoctrination.
Lets hope they did find Christ legitimetly at some point.
Grace and peace,
Mike
Ray Berrian
New Member
D28guy,
Your statements about Buddists and Hindus, etc. made me thrown up a red flag too.
I have my serious doubts about Mother Teresa by what she said. I heard and read that before. As to the pope I do not know. He sure has deceived multi-millions with his traditional church tradition that most times supercedes what God has to say in His Word. Put it this way--I am glad I am living, walking and being responsible for my own 'shoes' until the end of my life. My hope and trust is ONLY in Jesus. This is the only statement of faith that I have to offer to others.
Your statements about Buddists and Hindus, etc. made me thrown up a red flag too.
I have my serious doubts about Mother Teresa by what she said. I heard and read that before. As to the pope I do not know. He sure has deceived multi-millions with his traditional church tradition that most times supercedes what God has to say in His Word. Put it this way--I am glad I am living, walking and being responsible for my own 'shoes' until the end of my life. My hope and trust is ONLY in Jesus. This is the only statement of faith that I have to offer to others.
hillclimber
New Member
DHK wrote,
**Now let's turn the tables. For a person who went on three different missionary journeys, preached to thousands upon thousands, established over 100 different churches, how can you even think of saying that his understanding of the gospel was not complete??*****
You seem to be arguing against your own position here.
Let's look at the verse. Keep in mind that the word translated 'perfect' in Greek can also have the sense of 'mature.'
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
When the perfect comes, Paul's understanding will be like that of a man. His previous understanding was childish. If Paul had a complete understanding of the word before the scriptures were completed, then why were the gifts still around in his day? And if someone has the Bible now, his understanding of the word is not necessarily complete. The coming of the perfect is directly tied in this passage to the maturity of Paul's understanding. How did the coming of scripture change that?
***When I was immature (spiritually), I spoke immaturely, my understanding was spiritually immature, I thought immaturely: but when I became a man (more mature as a Christian), I put away immature things (such as the desire to speak in tongues). Prophecy was so much a better gift. And then he proceeds in chapter 14 to tell how prophecy is a better gift. That is the meaning of this verse.***
The way you are interpreting the verse does not fit with your idea that the perfect is the completed scriptures. Verse 11 expands on verse 10. It is in the same context, not a completely different context. The coming of the perfect will make Paul's previous state like childhood in comparison to his state at the coming of the perfect.
Btw, Paul, as mature as he was, still said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthian believers. He did argue that prophecy was superior to tongues without interpretation, but he did not demean the gift of tongues.
DHK wrote,
**There is no revelation beyond the Word of God, the Bible. God has given us no extra-Biblical revelation. If so, then you may as well accept the Book of Mormon as well as any other cult that claims to have extra-Biblical revelation.**
There are some problems with your quote.
1. It contradicts scriptures. Romans 1 tells us that there is revelation of God in creation. Also, we see in the New and Old Testaments that a lot of revelation from God (e.g. prophecies) are not recorded in scripture. I could give you a list if you are interested.
2. Your argument is illogical. If God has given extra-scriptural revelation, that does not mean that the Book of Mormon is valid. That is like a liberal arguing that if Christians believe that God did miracles in the time of Christ, then they must admit that some alleged Chinese miracles from the same time period are true. The argument is just not valid.
Btw, this thread seems to have gotten off-topic. Can't we have another thread for Hinn and Tilton? I believe in gifts of the Spirit, and I don't encourage people to be followers of either of these men. If I tried to watch Tilton's show used to give me the 'heeby jeebies' more than trying to watch a commercial from the psychic friend's network.
**Now let's turn the tables. For a person who went on three different missionary journeys, preached to thousands upon thousands, established over 100 different churches, how can you even think of saying that his understanding of the gospel was not complete??*****
You seem to be arguing against your own position here.
Let's look at the verse. Keep in mind that the word translated 'perfect' in Greek can also have the sense of 'mature.'
9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
When the perfect comes, Paul's understanding will be like that of a man. His previous understanding was childish. If Paul had a complete understanding of the word before the scriptures were completed, then why were the gifts still around in his day? And if someone has the Bible now, his understanding of the word is not necessarily complete. The coming of the perfect is directly tied in this passage to the maturity of Paul's understanding. How did the coming of scripture change that?
***When I was immature (spiritually), I spoke immaturely, my understanding was spiritually immature, I thought immaturely: but when I became a man (more mature as a Christian), I put away immature things (such as the desire to speak in tongues). Prophecy was so much a better gift. And then he proceeds in chapter 14 to tell how prophecy is a better gift. That is the meaning of this verse.***
The way you are interpreting the verse does not fit with your idea that the perfect is the completed scriptures. Verse 11 expands on verse 10. It is in the same context, not a completely different context. The coming of the perfect will make Paul's previous state like childhood in comparison to his state at the coming of the perfect.
Btw, Paul, as mature as he was, still said that he spoke in tongues more than all the Corinthian believers. He did argue that prophecy was superior to tongues without interpretation, but he did not demean the gift of tongues.
DHK wrote,
**There is no revelation beyond the Word of God, the Bible. God has given us no extra-Biblical revelation. If so, then you may as well accept the Book of Mormon as well as any other cult that claims to have extra-Biblical revelation.**
There are some problems with your quote.
1. It contradicts scriptures. Romans 1 tells us that there is revelation of God in creation. Also, we see in the New and Old Testaments that a lot of revelation from God (e.g. prophecies) are not recorded in scripture. I could give you a list if you are interested.
2. Your argument is illogical. If God has given extra-scriptural revelation, that does not mean that the Book of Mormon is valid. That is like a liberal arguing that if Christians believe that God did miracles in the time of Christ, then they must admit that some alleged Chinese miracles from the same time period are true. The argument is just not valid.
Btw, this thread seems to have gotten off-topic. Can't we have another thread for Hinn and Tilton? I believe in gifts of the Spirit, and I don't encourage people to be followers of either of these men. If I tried to watch Tilton's show used to give me the 'heeby jeebies' more than trying to watch a commercial from the psychic friend's network.
tamborine lady
Active Member
I just read the last two posts, one by Link and one by D28Guy, and I just want to say a hearty AMEN to both!!
Peace,
Tam
Ray Berrian
New Member
It seems to me that I a pastor preached 'salvation by faith' for thirty minutes every Sunday the believers would soon get tired of not learning anything for their personal lives and struggles they have in their faith life.
For any preacher preaching about the concept of 'Seed Faith' as to how the Lord blesses more fully those who support the work of God--all of the time seems to me clearly excessive. Sometimes a few of the T.V. preachers seem to be manipulating the people with their repeated emphasis. Am I wrong?
We are to preach the whole council of God and His Word. Balance is very important.
I used to stay with the theme of the Sunday as on Pentecost, the seven statements of Jesus from the Cross--during Lent, Easter Sunday message of resurrection, Christmas and the birth of Christ, etc.
The other Sundays of the year I would also ask the Lord to direct me to the passage of Scripture that His people needed to hear.
Some more formal churches have a book with every Sunday Scriptures that guide a pastor through the Bible. I almost never used these guides.
I know in the Bible Book stores they have Pastoral Guides through the year. Often I would use the text and the Three Main Points of the Sermon and then develop it as I believed the Spirit of God had directed me to do, with my own emphasis.
For any preacher preaching about the concept of 'Seed Faith' as to how the Lord blesses more fully those who support the work of God--all of the time seems to me clearly excessive. Sometimes a few of the T.V. preachers seem to be manipulating the people with their repeated emphasis. Am I wrong?
We are to preach the whole council of God and His Word. Balance is very important.
I used to stay with the theme of the Sunday as on Pentecost, the seven statements of Jesus from the Cross--during Lent, Easter Sunday message of resurrection, Christmas and the birth of Christ, etc.
The other Sundays of the year I would also ask the Lord to direct me to the passage of Scripture that His people needed to hear.
Some more formal churches have a book with every Sunday Scriptures that guide a pastor through the Bible. I almost never used these guides.
I know in the Bible Book stores they have Pastoral Guides through the year. Often I would use the text and the Three Main Points of the Sermon and then develop it as I believed the Spirit of God had directed me to do, with my own emphasis.
If disciple them and train them to disiple others then we give them a lifetime of obedience and faithfulness to God's word whether they are on the mission field where there are no Christians or amoing many thousands. Those kind of people do not give trouble in churches unless the pastor is an idiot.
Ray Berrian
New Member
gb93433,
You said, 'If disciple them and train them to disiple others then we give them a lifetime of obedience and faithfulness to God's word whether they are on the mission field where there are no Christians or amoing many thousands. Those kind of people do not give trouble in churches unless the pastor is an idiot.
You said, 'If disciple them and train them to disiple others then we give them a lifetime of obedience and faithfulness to God's word whether they are on the mission field where there are no Christians or amoing many thousands. Those kind of people do not give trouble in churches unless the pastor is an idiot.
.
Ray Berrian
New Member
In Acts 10 Peter is preaching and the Gentiles are getting saved. St. Luke records the historical data and event.
First, let me say when I got saved and until today I have never spoken in 'tongues.' [Acts 10:45-46]
In this instance those who received the Holy Spirit spoke ' . . . with tongues, and magnified God.' [Acts 10:45-46] Shortly afterward they were baptized in water thus declaring their faith in Jesus and being obedient to His command to baptize new converts.
First, let me say when I got saved and until today I have never spoken in 'tongues.' [Acts 10:45-46]
In this instance those who received the Holy Spirit spoke ' . . . with tongues, and magnified God.' [Acts 10:45-46] Shortly afterward they were baptized in water thus declaring their faith in Jesus and being obedient to His command to baptize new converts.
I had told some one before, that the gift of tongues is a prayer language between you and God, but if it is for the edification of the church then there is an interpreter needed. This is truly wht the Word of God says and if anyone disagrees then show it to me in the scripture and I will be glad to accept correction on it if I am wrong
Ray Berrian
New Member
Ladyhawk,
You said, 'I had told some one before, that the gift of tongues is a prayer language between you and God, but if it is for the edification of the church then there is an interpreter needed. This is truly wht the Word of God says and if anyone disagrees then show it to me in the scripture and I will be glad to accept correction on it if I am wrong.'
Dr. Berrian, Th.D.
You said, 'I had told some one before, that the gift of tongues is a prayer language between you and God, but if it is for the edification of the church then there is an interpreter needed. This is truly wht the Word of God says and if anyone disagrees then show it to me in the scripture and I will be glad to accept correction on it if I am wrong.'
.
Dr. Berrian, Th.D.
Timtoolman
New Member
I disagree, where does it say it is a prayer language? Please don't use Paul's hyperbole that if I spoke with the tongues of angels etc.