Speaking in Tongues Volume 4...

[tamborine lady]

D28guy said: TamorineLady,

Just saw your post.

Great minds think alike, do they not?

(or would that be..."by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, etc")

Grace and peace,

Mike

********************************

Or, In one accord!!

Whatever way you say it, I think we are on a roll!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

hillclimber,

You said, 'Why would God not give the gift of tongues to missionerys today if they were legitimate? I know of not a single missionery in the world that doesn't have to know/learn the language of the people he'll serve. Not one, and no one else on this board does either.'

The Biblical tongues and interpretation has nothing to do with nationalistic langugages, the language of each country. Your first mistake, is because of your presupposition that 'tongues' is a national language.

Tongues were for the edification of the Christian who prays to God through this utterance.

Tongues plus the 'interpretation of tongues' was for proclaiming Biblical truth to the church before they received their epistles from Paul, plus to two together--edify the Body of Christ, the local church--when God speaks through His two people to the congregation.

I can give you Scripture to back this truth but I doubt if it will assimilate into your mind or heart.

I Corinthians 12:10,28,30
I Corinthians 14:2--the person speaking in 'tongues' is speaking to the Lord not you or the rest of the congregation.

14:4 Tongues is for the edification of the person praying.

14:5 & 14:6 In this verse 6 & 13 & 14. Notice the Apostle Paul says, 'If I pray in an unknown tongue. . .' Also, 18,26,27,39. Here are about 14 verses dealing with this 'gift of the Holy Spirit.'

.

You said, 'Tongues left with all the other sign gifts early in 1st century. These gifts were signs to Israel.'

'There is no verse in Corinthians or any other N.T. book that speaks of 'the gifts of the Holy' concluding at your arbitrary time. Give us a chapter and verse so we may learn your great wisdom.

Your hypothesis of the 'gifts of the Spirit' being only for the Jewish/Israelite people is also ill founded. If you trust the Word, please, accept it as Paul wrote it down as coming from the Lord.

'Tongues are for a sign . . . . to those who believe not!' Paul means all nationalities who have not yet trusted in Him as Savior and Lord. It is 'no nice' to add your words to the living Word of God. Please, let His Word stand alone without you trying to prop it up for your own personal interpretation [II Peter 1:20].

.

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Bottom line is there is not a church in the world practicing biblical tonugues. NOT ONE! If I am wrong please tell me the church. It is all fakery and deceitfulness.

I guess you speak at least 3500 languages fluently and are a grammarian of each of these 3500 or more languages and so you would know!!

 

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
hillclimber,

You said, 'Why would God not give the gift of tongues to missionerys today if they were legitimate? I know of not a single missionery in the world that doesn't have to know/learn the language of the people he'll serve. Not one, and no one else on this board does either.'

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Biblical tongues and interpretation has nothing to do with nationalistic langugages, the language of each country. Your first mistake, is because of your presupposition that 'tongues' is a national language.

Tongues were for the edification of the Christian who prays to God through this utterance.

Tongues plus the 'interpretation of tongues' was for proclaiming Biblical truth to the church before they received their epistles from Paul, plus to two together--edify the Body of Christ, the local church--when God speaks through His two people to the congregation.

I can give you Scripture to back this truth but I doubt if it will assimilate into your mind or heart.

I Corinthians 12:10,28,30
I Corinthians 14:2--the person speaking in 'tongues' is speaking to the Lord not you or the rest of the congregation.

14:4 Tongues is for the edification of the person praying.

14:5 & 14:6 In this verse 6 & 13 & 14. Notice the Apostle Paul says, 'If I pray in an unknown tongue. . .' Also, 18,26,27,39. Here are about 14 verses dealing with this 'gift of the Holy Spirit.'

.

You said, 'Tongues left with all the other sign gifts early in 1st century. These gifts were signs to Israel.'

'There is no verse in Corinthians or any other N.T. book that speaks of 'the gifts of the Holy' concluding at your arbitrary time. Give us a chapter and verse so we may learn your great wisdom.

Your hypothesis of the 'gifts of the Spirit' being only for the Jewish/Israelite people is also ill founded. If you trust the Word, please, accept it as Paul wrote it down as coming from the Lord.

'Tongues are for a sign . . . . to those who believe not!' Paul means all nationalities who have not yet trusted in Him as Savior and Lord. It is 'no nice' to add your words to the living Word of God. Please, let His Word stand alone without you trying to prop it up for your own personal interpretation [II Peter 1:20].

. </font>[/QUOTE]Please sir, I mean no disrespect to you, especially in light of your years of study and understandings. But you are simply wrong, and DHK's posts on this matter have been thorough and well argued, and you simply have choosen not to believe them. Sometimes we, as believers embrace a perceived truth that we refuse to let go of in spite of real truths coming out. This argument for tongues is one such untruth.

 

[tamborine lady]

Hillclimber. There is no need to talk "down" to people! We are ALL intelligent adults here, and what you believe is not what we believe. No need to try to demean us by acting superior to us.

You are simply misinformed. By your own admission, you said;Sometimes we, as believers embrace a perceived truth that we refuse to let go of in spite of real truths coming out. This argument for tongues is one such untruth.

Your argument AGAINST tongues is the untruth spoken here.

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

You are simply misinformed. By your own admission, you said;Sometimes we, as believers embrace a perceived truth that we refuse to let go of in spite of real truths coming out. This argument for tongues is one such untruth.

Your argument AGAINST tongues is the untruth spoken here.

Peace,

Tam

Then I invite you to answer the post directed to D28guy, near the top of page 5 which starts with:

Because I haven't. I have answered every objection you have thrown at me with Scripture. You fail to believe God's Word, and his promises. Let's consider some of the facts:

Neither D28guy, Ray, yourself, nor anyone else has addressed these points in a Scriptural way.
DHK

 

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Hillclimber. There is no need to talk "down" to people! We are ALL intelligent adults here, and what you believe is not what we believe. No need to try to demean us by acting superior to us.

You are simply misinformed. By your own admission, you said;Sometimes we, as believers embrace a perceived truth that we refuse to let go of in spite of real truths coming out. This argument for tongues is one such untruth.

Your argument AGAINST tongues is the untruth spoken here.

Peace,

Tam

I was trying carefully and tactfully to respectfully disagree with Ray, and to point out his misunderstanding. I would not presume to talk down to him. I do not place my ego or id above anyone else. I do place a high value on things I've learned to be truths over these many years and refuse to allow them to be abused by non-contextual, and faulty Biblical arguments. And of course you are free to make the same arguments for your positions. I've read DHK's arguments and find them in alignment with my understandings.

If you place my writings in such regard that I seem "above" or enlightened, so be it, as that is your problem and not mine.

And if you believe tongues are for today, why not demand that any/every missionary possess the "gift of tongues" or they cannot be fully equipped for the mission field. It sure would save a ton of educational expense. But there is not a single missionary anywhere that hasn't had to study a language foreign to them for their ministry, if required.

And babbling is not a heavenly, ghostly, angelic, or elvin, etc. tongue. It is incoherent babble, and probably demonic in nature. And it keeps otherwise normal believers from growing in Christ.

Sorry, I have to leave for LA now.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The language theory of 3,500 alleged 'tongues' is at the opposite pole as to Biblical theology. By this standard a person would know more languages, both in understand them and 'interpreting' them even more than the former Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.

No offense intended, but this view is below the level of a person with a 60 I.Q. It just is not near the realm of human reasoning, sensibility and good reasoning.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Bottom line is there is not a church in the world practicing biblical tonugues. NOT ONE! If I am wrong please tell me the church. It is all fakery and deceitfulness.

I guess you speak at least 3500 languages fluently and are a grammarian of each of these 3500 or more languages and so you would know!! </font>[/QUOTE]No but all have been proved fakery. It seems that tongues today is always spoken in one of the 3500 that no one can find. Yeah Okay.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The language theory of 3,500 alleged 'tongues' is at the opposite pole as to Biblical theology. By this standard a person would know more languages, both in understand them and 'interpreting' them even more than the former Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.

No offense intended, but this view is below the level of a person with a 60 I.Q. It just is not near the realm of human reasoning, sensibility and good reasoning.

Ray this from a man who has added to the scriptures by saying the tongues in acts was an unkown or heavenly language when all else pts too the fact that they heard in thier own language. No ands, ifs, or buts about it Ray, there is no way to pull that out of that text of acts.
Trust me, from you, absolutely no offense taken.

Tim

 

[Ray Berrian]

When people came away from the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost the glossalia that they formed into sounds was heard by all nations represented and each understood the Gospel clearly no matter which nation them came from to visit Jerusalem.

 

[tamborine lady]

Neither D28guy, Ray, yourself, nor anyone else has addressed these points in a Scriptural way.
DHK

We have answered you, over and over and over again. The problem is that you pay no attention. You make no effort to see it as the bible presents it. It is very simple to see, but you refuse to use your brain to think about it. Ya'll won't even let the Holy Spirit interpret it for you.

Instead you all would rather rely on commentaries and books written by others, so your theology is not something you learned from God, but from anorher man.

Nothing wrong with education, but some go overboard with it.

So there's no use giving you scripture because you won't look at it the way it is presented.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Ray Berrian]

Tam,

As you noticed I listed each verse as to 'tongues' and the 'interpretation of tongues' on page 6 and these people simply ignore the verses. The Holy Spirit is not their Teacher; they are learning from flawed theories that would not make sense even by a sinner. They would see the huge holes in their theology if you give them the benefit of the doubt. I personally, do not see their ideas as even viable.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
When people came away from the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost the glossalia that they formed into sounds was heard by all nations represented and each understood the Gospel clearly no matter which nation them came from to visit Jerusalem.

Lets use the bible here............they each understood in their own language! Acts 2:6. Do tongues people even read this verse?!
Word glwvssai...verses 6 and 7 show that EACH ONE HEARD THEM SPEAKING IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. Context shows an understandable language.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Neither D28guy, Ray, yourself, nor anyone else has addressed these points in a Scriptural way.
DHK

We have answered you, over and over and over again.

I haven't seen a Scriptural answer yet. Every point I listed you cannot refute. You only offer experience, not Scripture. And when you do offer Scripture it is taken out of context. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.

The problem is that you pay no attention. You make no effort to see it as the bible presents it.

When theology is founded on experience, you are right--I pay no attention. That is the wrong hermeneutic. It is like saying:
I speak in tongues therefore it is Biblical. And that is the basis of most Charismatic theology. Their experience outweighs the Word of God. The Vineyard Church, in which some of its members "roar like lions, hiss like snakes, bark like dogs" believe it is of the Holy Spirit. Why? They have had "the experience." Because they have had the experience it must be of God. Their theology is based on experience and not on the Scriptures. Show me from the Bible, not from your experience.

It is very simple to see, but you refuse to use your brain to think about it. Ya'll won't even let the Holy Spirit interpret it for you.

Is that your omniscient judgement call--one that you condemn others with because you claim to know who amnog is led by the Holy Spirit and who isn't?? Do you take the place of God?

Instead you all would rather rely on commentaries and books written by others, so your theology is not something you learned from God, but from anorher man.

Again you presume to know what we do and don't do. Is this a claim of your omniscience? What do you know of my personal life, what if any commentaries I use, how much time I spend with God, etc. You are very presumptuous and arrogant to take upon yourself the knowledge that God alone has.
But when one is desperate for knowledge and can't answer the questions of them, what else is there to resort to but defamation and personal attack??

Nothing wrong with education, but some go overboard with it.

And some would do good to have one.

So there's no use giving you scripture because you won't look at it the way it is presented.

Like I said, Charismatics rely on experience, rather than Scripture, and thus are unable to defend their position.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

Timtoolman,

"Bottom line is there is not a church in the world practicing biblical tonugues. NOT ONE! If I am wrong please tell me the church. It is all fakery and deceitfulness."

At every Pentecostal or Charismatic fellowship I have been a part of since 1982 the biblical gifts of tongues has been in evidence.

Including yesterday at my current fellowship.

Last night, in addition to tongues we had the prophetic gift in evidence as well.

What a great great blessing these gifts are to the body of Christ. The sweet ~Winds~ of the Spirit are so very refreshing.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

TamborineLady quotes you and then responded...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Neither D28guy, Ray, yourself, nor anyone else has addressed these points in a Scriptural way.
DHK

We have answered you, over and over and over again.</font>[/QUOTE]And then you said...

I haven't seen a Scriptural answer yet. Every point I listed you cannot refute. You only offer experience, not Scripture. And when you do offer Scripture it is taken out of context. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.

It goes without saying that we have answered you...scripturally...many many many many many times.

But since you seem to have a poor..or selective...memory, I'll just copy over a previous post that answers your fairly well. Its one of mine so it'll probably not be as good as many others from other posters, but it should do just fine anyway...

-----------------------------------------

DHK,

In an effort to prove that the sign gifts ended with the original Apostles dying away, you said...

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (KJV)

But we have to take into consideration all of Gods scripture, not just some scripture taken in isolation. Scripture must fit together like a hand in a glove.

When we turn to the last chapter of Mark we find that those "signs of an Apostle" will continue through all of those who are believers through the centuries...

"16:15
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned...."

And what will those "believe" be doing?...

"16:17
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

16:18
they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Why did Jesus not say...

"And these signs will follow you 11, plus one more to be added later..."?

Why? Because these gifts of the Spirit will continue on beyond them.

Jesus specifically said...

""And these signs will follow those who believe"

Because of what Jesus Christ has said concerning this topic, we can only conclude that as long as there are believers in Jesus Christ these gifts of the Spirit will continue to be in evidence.

However you have not considered all of Scripture.

You haven't seriously considered 1Cor.14:21 where it tells us that tongues are a sign for the Jews.

Lets take a look at 1 Cor 14:21 and 22...

"14:21
In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.

14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe."

He quotes from the Law there, from what we call the the old testament.

Of course, (as I'm sure you know) one of the most important principles of scripture interpretation is that we are to interpret the old testament scriptures "in light of" (or "through the eyes" of) the new testament scriptures.

And right after your vs 21 comes vs 22...

Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

If you are going to jump on the "sign" purpose of tongues (there are other purposes of course), then the scriptures identify any one who is an unbeliever as being possibly influenced by the "sign"...not just Jews.

But even if it were just Jews, there are still unbelieving Jews in the world, so the sign would still be in affect anyway.

It is a fulfillment of prophecy which was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Couldnt possibly be.

Everyone in the world would have to be a believer in 70AD for that to be true.

You haven't adequately dealt with 1Cor.13:8 which plainly tells us that these gifts will cease and not continue.

I...and others...have dealt with that many times. And we have done it adequately.

Here it is again...

"13:8
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."

Tongues will cease when we see Christ face to face...when we are in heaven.

The Charismatics, contrary to God's Word say that they will continue.

No....those who are anti-tongues, contrary to Gods word, say they ceased in 70AD.

God's Word says that they will cease.

Of course it does. When we see Him face to face and when we will know as we are known.

In eternity.

"I will stick with God's Word."

But you arent.

They have ceased.

Then why are millions of Spirit filled believers in Jesus Christ speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives them utterance, and have been for 2000 years after 70AD?

You quoted me...

"I see that people have been speaking in tongues...for 2,000 years."

And then said...

I really would like to meet with you. I have never met a man who is 2,000 years old!!

The word "see" can be meant symbolically, as I obviously meant it.

I "see" that people are speaking in other tongues today, and I also "see" through documentation that christians have been speaking in other tongues in centuries past.

Grace and peace,

Mike

------------------------------------------

Needless to say, I am not distorting or mangling the scriptures at all. I believe I am sharing them in context and in a balanced way.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Ray Berrian]

timtoolman,

You said, 'Lets use the bible here............they each understood in their own language! Acts 2:6. Do tongues people even read this verse?!
Word glwvssai...verses 6 and 7 show that EACH ONE HEARD THEM SPEAKING IN HIS OWN LANGUAGE. Context shows an understandable language.'

Yes, the miracle was that the disciples spoke 'in tongues' but each person understood in his or her own native language.

One tongue was spoken--and yet all understood. Miracle! Miracle! Miracle!

 

[Bible-boy]

Ray...

The text does not say that only "one tongue" was spoken and each one heard them speaking in his own language. The text only addresses the fact that the multitudes were amazed and astonished, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear each of us in his own native language?...(Acts 2:7-8). The text does not say if only one or many different tongues (languages) were spoken. However, from the context it seems more likely than not that the disciples spoke in the many different languages mentioned in the Scripture.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I would tend to agree, there were many different languages that the apostles were speaking.