Speaking in Tongues Volume 4...

[Ray Berrian]

Timtoolman,

You said, ' . . . long before some whacko came up with the jibberish nonesense of today.'

Clearly the Apostle Paul was a jibberer because he said in I Corinthians 14 'I speak with tongues more than ye all.' Also, he said, 'desire spiritual gifts,. . . . and I wish you all could speak in tongues.'

.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'by their songs and incantations.
SPEAKING IN TONGUES'

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In another area of American life you are like the Democrats at every election time saying the opposite party will do away with old people's Medicare and Social Security.

Falsehood and fear does not work for we who are saved Christians.

. </font>[/QUOTE]What falsehood?
I didn't say a thing.
I merely gave you a quote from one of the early church fathers, "Clement of Alexandria," who also was in agreement with the other church fathers. I gave you the link to the website. It is for you to do with the information as you like. We are all responsible for the light that we receive.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

'Languages are grouped into families. If one is familiar with a couple of different languages he should be able to identify quite a few others of the same family.'

Now the statement above is a real
S T R E T C H. And then there are the dialets that are vastly different from each other as in the Italian language.

The ship is sinking!

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Bottom line is there is not a church in the world practicing biblical tonugues. NOT ONE! If I am wrong please tell me the church. It is all fakery and deceitfulness.

I guess you speak at least 3500 languages fluently and are a grammarian of each of these 3500 or more languages and so you would know!! </font>[/QUOTE]No but all have been proved fakery. It seems that tongues today is always spoken in one of the 3500 that no one can find. Yeah Okay. </font>[/QUOTE]I take it that you are a grammarian of 3500 languages and have over 3500 PHD's in these languages.
Well i am impressed.
Or are you phd's (post hole diggers)????

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Timtoolman,

You said, ' . . . long before some whacko came up with the jibberish nonesense of today.'

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Clearly the Apostle Paul was a jibberer because he said in I Corinthians 14 'I speak with tongues more than ye all.' Also, he said, 'desire spiritual gifts,. . . . and I wish you all could speak in tongues.'

. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes yes, .........Paul knew many languages. Jibberish, No. And there is no scripture that says he did. Or Christ for that matter.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Bottom line is there is not a church in the world practicing biblical tonugues. NOT ONE! If I am wrong please tell me the church. It is all fakery and deceitfulness.

I guess you speak at least 3500 languages fluently and are a grammarian of each of these 3500 or more languages and so you would know!! </font>[/QUOTE]No but all have been proved fakery. It seems that tongues today is always spoken in one of the 3500 that no one can find. Yeah Okay. </font>[/QUOTE]I take it that you are a grammarian of 3500 languages and have over 3500 PHD's in these languages.
Well i am impressed.
Or are you phd's (post hole diggers)???? </font>[/QUOTE]Nope don't need to know all of em to know fakery when I see it. Again it is funny how the tongues people now try to claim that if you don't recongize it, it must be one of the 7000 other languages not known to man. How absurd.

 

[Ray Berrian]

'Nope don't need to know all of em to know fakery when I see it. Again it is funny how the tongues people now try to claim that if you don't recongize it, it must be one of the 7000 other languages not known to man. How absurd.'

I am not one of those 'tongues people' as you stated. I do not have this gift but recognize it clearly in I Corinthians 12 & 14.

You still misunderstand that probably the 'speaking in tongues' is the language of Heaven as noted in I Corinthians 13:1--the language of the angels when they speak to the Lord and when He instructs them as to their next providences on the world scene as in Divine judgment.

When you get to Heaven do you expect to speak to the Lord and your glorified relatives, in the English language?

I do not know what the Pentecostal Christians think but I absolutely do not believe that 'tongues' is any human language among the nations. Period!!

Since 'tongues' is not the language of the people, even if you understood every language and dialet, you still would have to go to a higher Source which is Jesus Christ our Lord. Now that is not absurd!

.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

[DHK]

Ray,
If the angels in heaven spoke gibberish (as you insinuate), how was it that John could understand them without an interpreter? What language did the angels speak. Some might say it was the good ole KJV.

But it could have been Greek or Hebrew. It was a language that John could understand without interpretation. So much for "angelic languages." They are not ecstatic in nature. The only ecstatic speech known to mankind is of pagan origin and practiced in pagan religions and heretical sects.
Try reading through the Book of Revelation. You will find that the angels sing and speak in actual real languages--languages that are recorded in the original Greek.
Every time an angel appeared in the Bible from individuals in the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation, angels have always spoken in the language of the people that they were speaking to--never ecstatically. Angelic languages are not ecstatic languages. There is no indication to say that they are. In fact it if very presumptuous for you to take any such position without evidence.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

I believe that the Lord was in charge of what the Apostle John experienced both by the visions and in communicating with God. John reports the interactions of the Elders with God and the messages for the seven churches of Asia minor.

I could care less how they communicated. My basic mission in this life to communicate to sinner and saint alike, what the Word of God is saying to us as Christians. God communicated with John and that is probably enough for us to understand.

Some things are not for us to understand. We at times can become too athereal or celestial, which can lead toward guess work.

 

[EdSutton]

Why do I know in advance that I'll regret this, probably? I guess I know that fools DO rush in where angels fear to tread, but anywho-&gt;.
I have just read through this entire thread (12p.) in the last little bit, deliberatley avoiding trying to see who wrote what so as not to start trying to guess who was saying what. There were two things that caught my attention, however.
One was a statement, to the effect that, 'Paul was more spiritual than some (or the) others. - whatever that means, in this thread. Outta' curiosity, where does Paul (or Luke or Peter, writing about him) ever make any claim to be 'more spiritual' than anyone?
Second, when speaking of I Cor.14:4, I noticed that text says that that "...he who speaks... edifies himself...". Someone wrote to the effect of self-edifying is important. Where is that found in Scripture? I checked my concordance, but am not able to figure out from whence this arises. I see where the active sense is used that we are to edify the church and other individuals. I see where the passive sense is used and we are edified. Aside from stretching I Cor.14:4 like a rubber band around the aforementioned barrel, I see nothing that implies edify self, and in fact I would suggest that Scripture seems to warn against exactly that.
Anyway, for myself, I am ecstatic that I have been both enlightened and edified, by the extraordinary eisegesis and exegesis so far expressed here. Or maybe its that I'm just easily entertaine...!
Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Sorry! Last sentence should read "Or maybe IT'S that I'm just easily entertaine...!"
Ed

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

"Why have none of the great spiritual leaders throughout history (both missionaries and theologians) never speak in tongues?"

WOW!

You personally have known every great spiritual leader in the body of Christ for the past 2000 years or so...and you know that none of them spoke in tongues!

That, my friend...is impressive!

(But how can you do that? ...with you not being GOD and all?)

Impressed,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
You personally have known every great spiritual leader in the body of Christ for the past 2000 years or so...and you know that none of them spoke in tongues!

That, my friend...is impressive!

(But how can you do that? ...with you not being GOD and all?)

Impressed,

Mike

You are the one that believes that the gifts of the Spirit, and especially tongues, are still for today. And if so, they should be commonly manifestted throughout history. But the fact is they are not. I am a student (and teacher) of church history. Why haven't I come across this astounding phenomena (which started in the 20th century in any other demoniantional groups, in any of the other true Bible believers that have existed throughout the centuries? I search history and find zilch. I posted the evidence from the early church fathers who believe the practice was of Satan. I have volumes of history books, general church history, but especially history books relating to the Baptists and going back to the Apostles. I find nothing about Charrismatic gifts from the Apostles onward. Why? Because they ceased at the end of the first century.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

Here is some good information concerning the sign gifts after apostolic times.

I dont have a link...it was sent to me as is. I was told that the book this came from continued on right on through the centuries after this...right up until current times.

This is just an excerpt.

Since I cant give a link a moderator may delete it before you see it. If so I'll send it to you through PM or in an email.

Here it is...

"150 AD, Catholic Apologist Justin Martyr On Glossolalia: Justin, who started the first Catholic school of theology at Rome, where he wrote his Dialogue to Trypho the Jew. Justin speaking of the gifts of the Spirit in this dialogue wrote: For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. Justin continued his discourse by saying: Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.

180 AD, Catholic Bishop Irenaeus On Glossolalia: There are two basic truths that we can learn from the writings of Irenaeus: First, he claimed that the gifts of the Spirit were still in operation in his church in Lyons, and in some of the other Catholic Churches in France around this time. Therefore, the Holy Spirit of God was evidently being quenched in most of the Catholic Churches around the world.

Second, Irenaeus believed that glossolalia and other gifts of the Spirit would continue until the resurrection took place. So with this in mind, let examine Irenaeus’ writings.

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. In his book entitled “Against Heresies” he spoke of the gifts of the Spirit this way: Those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years…. The name of our Lord Jesus Christ even now confers benefits [upon men], and cures thoroughly and effectively all who anywhere believe on Him. Is it not sad that this Catholic Bishop speaks as an observer and not as a participator!

Eusebius, in the fourth century, interpreted Irenaeus writings when he wrote: He shows that manifestations of divine and miraculous power continued to his time in some of the churches…. And in another place the same author [Irenaeus] writes: ‘As also we hear that many brethren in the Church possess prophetic gifts, and speak, through the Spirit, with all kinds of tongues, and bring to light the secret things of men for their good, and declare the mysteries of God.’ So much in regard to the fact that various gifts remained among those who were worthy even until that time.

220 AD, Origen: Glossolalia Had Ceased In Most Catholic Churches: The New Catholic Encyclopedia, names several Catholic Bishops who condemned Montanism and the gifts of the Spirit, which were working in them. Two of these Bishops were Clement of Alexandria and Origen. According to Origen, the gifts of the spirit in the Catholic Church had just about disappeared. Blunt revealed that Origen: Notes that the prophetic power had all but ceased, that only some traces of it were in his time to be seen. The gifts of the Spirit were still very much alive in God’s Jesus’ Name Churches in Origen’s day.

350 AD, Catholic Bishop Hilary Of Poitiers On Glossolalia: Hilary of France also wrote of the gifts of the Spirit. He, like others, acknowledged that God ordained them to be in the Church. Even though He did not claim to have a personal experience or a firsthand knowledge of God’s great and holy gifts.

The Catholic Church at this time was lamenting that the gifts of the Spirit were no more in their churches; and therefore taught them hoping that God would restore them to Catholicism. They taught that they should be the normal Christian experience.

Hilary wrote: God hath set same in the Church, first apostles, in whom is the word of wisdom; secondly prophets, in whom is the gift of knowledge thirdly teachers, in whom is the doctrine of faith; next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases, the power to help, governments by the prophets, and gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues. Clearly these are the Church’s agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them."

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Oooops, DHK...I see that you are a moderator.

(I had forgotten about that)

So you make the call.

If I had a link I would post it, but you do what you think is best.

Mike

 

[Briguy]

Mike, Below are verses in the order they were written in 1 Cor. Remember, in the Corinth church they were so messed up that people were standing up in the assembly and cursing the name of Jesus. Paul was being forward to them and rebuking them. Read the verses below and see that the edifying of oneself, in this context is wrong.
Read this verse from 2 Cor 2, which shows what Paul was thinking when he wrote 1 Cor.

4For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I (F)wrote to you with many tears; not so that you would be made sorrowful, but that you might know the love which I have especially for you.

Paul wrote 1 Cor. in tears. The evidence is overwhelming that the whole of 1 Cor. is a rebuke and must be read as such.

1 Cor 10
23(AL)All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable All things are lawful, but not all things (AM)edify.
24Let no one (AN)seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.

33just as I also (AZ)please all men in all things, (BA)not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, (BB)so that they may be saved

1 Cor. 12
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit (L)for the common good.

1 Cor. 14
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Mike, the verses below are all very negative and directly follow the verses you say are not negative. We must stay in context to understand what Paul is saying. Too many people slide right by the obvious.

1 cor. 14
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Ray Berrian]

Someone said, 'I don't think it is going to do much good to make him go into a fifty-five gallon drum and make fun of him.'

This kind of idea is pure foolishness, if it is a true story. By the same token some people who are taught by their pastors that 'once saved always saved' use this as a means of excusing their sins and actually make Jesus' grace and salvation look like foolishness before the eyes of the lost. Yeh, their saved and at the same time running around with another woman than their wife or are living a careless Christian life.

So, what I am saying is, there are a lot of abuses that go on in some churches and this does not help our cause in winning people to Christ.

It is not only Pentecosts who do things that do not seem logical; and I am not a Pentecostal as to denomination.

.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Mike,

Like I said before the 'gifts of the Spirit' have always continued in churches that welcome the truths in I Corinthians 12 & 14. If Christians reject truth--He, the Holy Spirit does not force His way into the assembly of the saints. There always have been a remnant who believed in the gifts of the Spirit, though they did not get their names written in a Church History book. But, we do know that the Montanists believed and experienced the 'gifts of the Holy Spirit.'

So the experiences of multi-millions of Christians in our times, confirm that God the Holy Spirit did not withdraw from the world back into Heaven.

Ray

 

[Ray Berrian]

Briguy,

We all can read our Bibles; what was your point?

First, in 12:1 Paul is explaining the value of these 'spiritual gifts' not denying them to the congregation. He is simply saying in the past some of you Gentiles were involved in idol worship, which was a fact. But now they are saved.

No person who speaks by the Holy Spirit would call Jesus accursed, but rather the people who say Jesus is Lord came to this truth by the witness of the Holy Spirit.

And then in verse 4 he calls attention to the 'diversity of the gifts' that the Lord gives to His church for their edification.

If there were a couple or a few who spoke things against Jesus, he wanted them to know they were still unsaved and probably had household idols yet in the homes.

You and DHK seem to have problems understanding verse 3, foolishly thinking that the whole congregation had somehow spoken against the Lord. If this were the case that most did this, the Apostle Paul would not have even devoted I and II Corinthians to sinners.

This not being the case, Paul said, 'desire spiritual gifts' 14:1; 'I wish that everyone spoke in tongues' 14:5 and in 14:18 the greatest apostle who ever lived, to my thinking, said, 'I speak in 'tongues' more than any of you.' Also, in 14:39 Paul tells the Elders in the church 'Do not forbid Christians from speaking in tongues.

But there did have to be Divine order in the service which was the responsibility of the Elders to insure this would be the case. [14:40].

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

No person who speaks by the Holy Spirit would call Jesus accursed, but rather the people who say Jesus is Lord came to this truth by the witness of the Holy Spirit.

And then in verse 4 he calls attention to the 'diversity of the gifts' that the Lord gives to His church for their edification.

If there were a couple or a few who spoke things against Jesus, he wanted them to know they were still unsaved and probably had household idols yet in the homes.

You and DHK seem to have problems understanding verse 3, foolishly thinking that the whole congregation had somehow spoken against the Lord. If this were the case that most did this, the Apostle Paul would not have even devoted I and II Corinthians to sinners.

You greatly misunderstand these verses:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

It is relatively easy to get someone to repeat the words: "Jesus is Lord." I can get any member of my unsaved Roman Catholic family to do it without any problem. I can any number of cults to do it. The Oneness people would say that, but I don't believe Oneness with their view of God are saved. I can probably convince a Muslim to repeat these words after me: "Jesus is Lord," and he would do it. That is not a difficult thing for an unsaved person to do. Your concept of this verse is totally wrong. Paul is contrasting this latter part of the verse with the first part. The emphasis is but by the Holy Spirit as contrasted to another spirit.

Contrariwise I can say that Jesus is accursed (and not really mean it from my heart). I can utter the words. There is nothing preventing me. It is not an impossibility. Any Christian can do that. The emphaisis again is the phrase speaking by the Holy Spirit as contrasted to another spirit.
Previously he mentions their pagan background which they had come out of--worshiping idols. Indeed some of them had spoken in tongues (actual languages), and had cursed God in a foreign language in paganism. Now some of them were doing it as Christians. Paul is saying that if you are cursing God in a foreign language, speaking in tongues, then it is obviously not of the Holy Spirit, it is of a demonic spirit. No man calls Jesus accursed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't do that. He praised God, not curses God. Yet we have evidence that this very thing happens in Charismatic circles today--where individuals, controlled by demons, speak in actualy languages, and praise Satan. That is what was happening in Corinth, and that also happens today sometimes. Thus it is a legitimate quetion to ask each and every tongue-speaker, How do you know what you are saying is of God? How do you know what you are saying is not of the devil? You may be praising Satan and not God. How do you know?
DHK