Speaking in Tongues- What is it?

[Thinkingstuff]

Fascinating isnt it....Interpretations & opinions like other parts of anatomy.....everyone has one. LOL.

Well, I like Shakespear as well. What can I say? I'm Eclectic.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I like Shakespear as well. What can I say? I'm Eclectic.

Another adjective! Any relation to "Apoplectic" like many in here?

 

[glfredrick]

Earth, Wind & Fire... You are not doing much to help your own cause. :BangHead:

DHK. I could say likewise. You've dredged up some stuff that goes far afield of the premise of the thread, and made it personal.

I think I'm done in this thread. When the conversation degenerats to the place where all we can do is toss invectives at each other, we've become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[webdog]

If your saying that the gifts of the holy spirit have ceased to exist today, then prove it in scripture please. The time line explanation doesn't do it for me but a truly understood reference to 1 Cor 13 would provide a sufficient answer in and of itself to criticisms. After viewing this video, can you see what rubbish you are asked to believe by this kind of exposition? We are told that the coming of of the New Testament scriptures puts us into a place of perfection; whereas if you look at verse 12 it actually says: "For now we see" - that is the apostle and others. The apostle is included with all other Christian believers before NT canon, much of which was written by Paul himself, had been completed. We read "Now we come and are complete "face to face: Now I know in part, but then"- which they say means the completion of the Scriptures- "shall I know even as also I am known."

You see what this involves? It means that you & I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God's truth. That is what it means & nothing less, if that argument is correct. It means that we are altogether superior to the early church & even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which we know "face to face" that "we know, even as also we are known" by God because we have the Scriptures. And of course this is all fantasy.

What Paul is, of course, dealing with in 1 Cor 13 is the contrast between the highest & the best that Christians can ever know in this world & in this life & what he will know in the glory everlasting. The "now" and the "then" are not the time before and after the Scripture were given, because that, as I have said, puts us in a position entirely superior to the apostles & prophets who are the foundation of the Christian church and on whose very work we have to rely. It is inconsistent & contradictory-indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense.

The "then" is the glory everlasting. It is only then that I shall know, even as also I am known; for then we shall see him as he is. It will be direct and "face to face". No longer, as Paul puts it again in 2 Cor 3:18 as an image or a reflection, but direct, absolute, full & perfect knowledge.

Just wanted to point out that Sonjeo probably won't respond...you are replying to a thread that is 5 years old.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just wanted to point out that Sonjeo probably won't respond...you are replying to a thread that is 5 years old.

Thanks, & can I point out that when that post was written I was actually writing to the guy right after Sonjeo who had posted the time line. But since I had been up all night with an illness and posted it at 5:30AM (check the time stamp) I freely confess to the mistake. Shame on me, Right!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Earth, Wind & Fire... You are not doing much to help your own cause. :BangHead:

DHK. I could say likewise. You've dredged up some stuff that goes far afield of the premise of the thread, and made it personal.

I think I'm done in this thread. When the conversation degenerats to the place where all we can do is toss invectives at each other, we've become part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I will bottom line this for you my friend & this is a credo I live by.

The best criticism of the bad is "the practice of the Better"

Dont waste the next 20 years of your life being against anybody, any group any institution. Just go ahead & do it better.

 

[Eric B]

The IFB movement is a movement that has taken a stand against certain issues, the Charismatic movement being one of them.

If you look up the statement of faiths of some IFB churches you will probably find that a stand against the Charismatic movement is written right into the Statement of Faith.
However, there are some liberal Baptist churches that are Charismatic. I don't deny that there are Charismatic Baptist churches, but they are not in the IFB camp.

But I don't think he said he was an Independent Fundamental Baptist, unless I'm missing something he said somewhere else.
You quoted his profile as "Home Church Independent Baptist" or something like that. That doesn't sound like an IFB.

There are many different brands of Church that war the Baptist name. Haven't you ever heard of "Holy Ghost-filled Baptists"? (as they're known in the street). Maybe you haven't, and it was more of a US inner city thing. These would be mostly storefront churches, who are charismatic ("holy rollers"), who happen to have "Baptist" in the name. (Most align themselves with Church of God, or other traditiionally charismatic denominations).
So it is possible.

 

[DHK]

There are many different brands of Church that war the Baptist name. Haven't you ever heard of "Holy Ghost-filled Baptists"? (as they're known in the street). Maybe you haven't, and it was more of a US inner city thing. These would be mostly storefront churches, who are charismatic ("holy rollers"), who happen to have "Baptist" in the name. (Most align themselves with Church of God, or other traditiionally charismatic denominations).
So it is possible.

Almost anything is possible in this day and age where there are those that call good evil, and evil good.
I was in the Catholic Church for 20 years before I got saved. When I came to Christ I had to make a decision. I placed RCC doctrine on one side and the Bible on the other. Which one would I follow? I could not follow both. Just from my own study alone I could see that there was a great contradiction. The two were at polar extremes. One could not believe the doctrines of the RCC and be a Christian at the same time. The one was a false religion, whereas to follow the Bible was to follow Christ.
One cannot be a Hindu and a Christian at the same time.
One cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time.
And one cannot be a Catholic and a Christian at the same time.
I chose to follow the Bible, follow Christ, be a Christian, and forsake Catholicism. I have never regretted it.

In time the Lord led me to a Baptist Church. I learned what a Baptist Church was. A Baptist Church is defined by Baptist Distinctives. In other words there may be modernistic baptist churches--those that deny the existence of heaven and hell, and possibly other cardinal doctrines of the faith, but in reality they are not Baptists. They don't take the Bible literally. It is not their rule of faith and order. In many areas of the Bible they outright deny it. They don't deserve to wear the label "Baptist," but probably do so out of tradition. Their church for the past four hundred years has been baptist but their doctrine in the last 100 years has vastly changed. Perhaps that is what happened. There are many such examples all over our landscape. They are Baptist only in name. But that doesn't make them "Baptist."

The same is true in Catholicism. I have had many debates with RCC apologists on this board. What about the Catholics who only go to church twice a year (Christmas and Easter), don't believe in heaven and hell, accept more of the humanism that they were taught in the public schools than what the Catholic Church teaches today--that man is essentially good, not evil. The RCC denies that these people, even though they would claim to be Catholic, are not Catholic, but only in name are they Catholic.

On the other hand can a person believe that the angel Moroni gave Joseph Smith extra-Biblical revelation, and not be a Mormon? If you believe Mormon doctrine does that not mean you are a Mormon? Why believe the Mormon doctrine and then deny that you are a Mormon?

When a person defends the doctrines of the Charismatic movement, believes the doctrines of the Charismatic movement, is he not a Charismatic, whether he wants to admit it or not?

The way that I define "Baptist," (any way you slice it), a "Charismatic Baptist" is an oxymoron. It doesn't exist.
One of the distinctives of Baptists is ecclesiastical separation, and that is separation from churches that are in doctrinal error. One is either a Charismatic or a Baptist. He cannot be both. If he believes in the tenets of the Charismatic movement--speaking in tongues, the gifts of the spirit, etc., then why not go and join a church that he has more in common with?

How can any Baptist stick around and defend the very doctrine that Baptist preach against? A Charismatic Baptist is an oxymoron. They do not exist in reality, even if they exist on paper in black and white. A Baptist who believes the Bible cannot honestly defend error.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well thank you for that testimony, it does display to every believing Christian the difficulties men land themselves in when they dislike something and cannot fully understand it and try to explain it away. All things must be judged in the light of scripture and we must not twist them to suit our theory or argument.

Let me again reiterate & close this discussion with this statement--there is nothing in the scripture itself which says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to end, and further, every attempt to make the scriptures say that leads to the same dismal & impossible conclusions that your at now. Period.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well thank you for that testimony, it does display to every believing Christian the difficulties men land themselves in when they dislike something and cannot fully understand it and try to explain it away. All things must be judged in the light of scripture and we must not twist them to suit our theory or argument.

Let me again reiterate & close this discussion with this statement--there is nothing in the scripture itself which says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are to end, and further, every attempt to make the scriptures say that leads to the same dismal & impossible conclusions that your at now. Period.

I have fully demonstrated by careful exegesis of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 and I Corinthians 14:18-23 that you are wrong! You have not responded to that exegesis. No one on this forum has responded to that exegesis up to this present time.

I Corinthians 13:8 says that the gift of tongues will be terminated BEFORE the revelatory gifts of knowledge and prophecy. Knowlege and prophecy are terminated by that "which is perfect"

I Corinthians 14:18-23 give the precise Biblical purpose for the gift of tongues. Paul basis his explanation upon the Word of God in Isaiah 28:12-15. He explicitly states that this gift is not for believers but for unbelievers and therefore it is not given to be exercised in the church but in the mission field to a special type of unbeliever - the learned unbeliever. Isaiah 28:12 and I Cor. 14:20-21 explicitly state it is a sign to "this people" whose capital is Jerusalem and thus it is a sign to the Jew that Jesus is the Messiah.

2 Cor. 12:12 explicitly state that the "signs, wonders and miracle" gifts are the sign of the apostolic office. Apostles are the only ones exercising such sign gifts in Acts 2-5. Such sign gifts were imparted by the apostles through the laying of of their hands. I have documented this in great detail, not merely one or two texts but many texts. When the apostles died, so did "the signs" of the apostolic office. I have proven in context that the apostolic office being considered is the technical office of Apostle that has precise qualifications (Acts 1:21-22) and Paul being the "last" (1 Cor. 15:8) rather than the non-technical church missionay (Acts 14:4). I have shown that such gifts are identified with the Apostles (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:2-4) and by the time that nearly all the apostles had died these gifts were spoken of in the past tense (Mk. 16:20 with Heb. 2:3-4).

What we have today is the signs of apostasy as that is what is predicted for the end times (Mt. 24:24-25; 2 Thes. 2:9-12) as they are "lying" signs, "lying" not because they are fake, but because they confirm the doctrinal errors by those exercising the signs instead of the truth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh no no dear doctor.....your not playing cricket now. I've already explained most of those Scriptures & more in great detail from 1 Cor 13 onward....please go back & read all that Ive posted. I would have thought that these would have been more than sufficient to answer you. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I on the other hand choose to spend my Labor Day holiday with friends & family so .....

Chao Baby :wavey: LOL

Enjoy your Labor Day!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Oh no no dear doctor.....your not playing cricket now. I've already explained most of those Scriptures & more in great detail from 1 Cor 13 onward....please go back & read all that Ive posted. I would have thought that these would have been more than sufficient to answer you. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I on the other hand choose to spend my Labor Day holiday with friends & family so .....

Chao Baby :wavey: LOL

Enjoy your Labor Day!

I have read your responses and there can be found nothing with substance - just assertions with absolutely not exegetical support. Sorry, but that is the bottom line.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It appears that we are not going to agree on this subject matter & I refuse to dishonor anyone by name calling.

Instead I think we can all agree that the Holy Spirit is the author of the Scriptures. It is he who inspired & guided & filled the men who have written these scriptures.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us , that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together for Him. Therefore comfort each other and edify one another. 1 Thessalonians 5 : 9-11

See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good for yourselves and for all.

Rejoice always,

Pray without ceasing,

In everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Do not despise prophecies.

Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Abstain from every form of evil

1 Thessalonians 5: 15-22

So enjoy the remainder of the Labor day holiday. I'm off to church, clears throat.....a Baptist Church! Chao Baby.