It should be enough. I have challenged you repeatedly to do this. You fail every time.
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Speaking in Tongues- What is it?
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
You have not been able to defend this statement but rather you throw innuendo and personal attack.
You have not been able to reconcile your above statement with the statement of faith of the church you say you attend. Do you both believe the same thing?
You are up against a fence with no place to go. It has been amply demonstrated that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. But you cannot Scripturally refute the Scripture that Dr. Walters or myself have given you. You have no place to go but to throw innuendos. So, what are we to believe about you?
Dr. Walter
New Member
I firmly do not believe the Pentecostal movement is of the Holy Spirit and yet I do believe that there are true people of God found in that movement.
No one can deny that the source of spiritual gifts is a "spirit" and there are two contrasting choices (1) The Holy Spirit; (2) Unholy Spirits.
We are commanded to test the spirits and that is by the inspired teachings of the apostles (I Jn. 4:6).
We are not to test them simply by our feelings or by the fact the miracle was real or by any superficial form of doctrine.
The Modern Pentecostal movement was begun by those persons who claimed to have the gift of prophecy.
Today, every pentecostal denomination is identified by one of the following persons who claim the gift of prophecy:
1. Oral Roberts,
2. Amee Semple McPherson
3. Kenneth Hagin
4. Kenneth Copeland
5. Maryln Hickey
6. Benny Hinn
7. Paul Crouch
8. Rodney Howard Browne
9. Earl Paulke
10. John Avanzini
11. Pat Robertson
12. John Arnott
13. John Wimber
14. Charles Capps
15. Kathryn Kuhlman
16. Charles Parham
17. William Branham
If they were not started by such they were regarded as their leaders and their books and teaching were adopted. Every last one of them has violated the tests of a Biblical prophet. That means the spirit behind them is not the Spirit of God. Hence, the whole movement is following the teachings and/or false prophets.
The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and confusion and division characterize the whole movement.
No one can deny that the source of spiritual gifts is a "spirit" and there are two contrasting choices (1) The Holy Spirit; (2) Unholy Spirits.
We are commanded to test the spirits and that is by the inspired teachings of the apostles (I Jn. 4:6).
We are not to test them simply by our feelings or by the fact the miracle was real or by any superficial form of doctrine.
The Modern Pentecostal movement was begun by those persons who claimed to have the gift of prophecy.
Today, every pentecostal denomination is identified by one of the following persons who claim the gift of prophecy:
1. Oral Roberts,
2. Amee Semple McPherson
3. Kenneth Hagin
4. Kenneth Copeland
5. Maryln Hickey
6. Benny Hinn
7. Paul Crouch
8. Rodney Howard Browne
9. Earl Paulke
10. John Avanzini
11. Pat Robertson
12. John Arnott
13. John Wimber
14. Charles Capps
15. Kathryn Kuhlman
16. Charles Parham
17. William Branham
If they were not started by such they were regarded as their leaders and their books and teaching were adopted. Every last one of them has violated the tests of a Biblical prophet. That means the spirit behind them is not the Spirit of God. Hence, the whole movement is following the teachings and/or false prophets.
The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion and confusion and division characterize the whole movement.
There is where we agree....you cant claim Gifts of the HS. They are gifts. Thats a rather subtle point I agree.
Now I havent been around that type but when any church gives an impression to outsiders that they are lieing , making it up or as Ive said before (in the case of tongues) that they are a bunch of maniacs....the church is doing the exact opposite of what the lord intended her to do....its probably even funny to observe all the gibberish & people from the outside thinking they're nuts.
Lets just agree to put this to bed... may God give us all balance & wisdom & sanity with respect to these matters. Lets agree to listen to Scripture & "Quench not the Spirit."Not to dismiss everything out of hand without praying about it first
Jesus is Lord
Jesus is Lord
I don't need to pray about the deity of Christ; do you?
What about the trinity?
What about the atonement?
I don't need to pray about the validity of tongues either, neither about the rest of the sign gifts. I know that they have all ceased. Perhaps you should pray, and study the Scriptures more. That would be a good idea.
glfredrick
New Member
I'll try to tackle this one, but I doubt that you'll accept my answers, your own answers demonstrate to me that you have made up your mind on this issue, but in any case, here goes...
1. Define "apostle." There were others in Scripture called "apostles" besides the 12 and Paul. There were also other miracles in Scripture besides those performed by the 12 and Paul. I think you fail the validity test in this regard, for if one other person is equated with a movement of the Holy Spirit who is not an apostle, then the gifts are valid for others as well.
2. You have demonstrated a lot of positive activity for the gifts of the Spirit in the Apostles, but you cannot request for someone to make an argument from silence against your point. That is begging the question and asking for an intentional fallacy. Because the Scriptures note that the apostles used various gifts does not automatically exclude others. What of Pentecost?
Act 2:1-4 (KJV) ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Surely you are not insinuating that the "all" was merely the 12, are you? I note that Paul was not there, yet he had spectacular gifts. If so, you then have to wrestle with the text in chapter 1, where God was freely able to select a replacement for Judas.
3. In 2 Cor. 12:12, have you not "added" to Scripture by making the term "apostles" into "office of an apostle" in your response? You, like any other good student of Greek knows that the word apostle carries with it more than one usage. You are choosing to limit that usage, while the context suggests a broader application. From Strongs:
4. You cite a good number of verses suggesting that the laying on of hands by the apostles was the carrier of the power. Have none after the apostles laid on hands to convey anointing and/or ordination into the office of pastor/elder/deacon? It seems as if this has been the case throughout the history of the church.
5. Can you demonstrate that the early Christians in the generation after the original 12 and Paul were without the spectacular gifts of the Spirit? Did none exhibit miracles of that nature while being burned at the stake, carrying the gospel into the entire world, etc.? If the gifts ceased why are there still expressions later in the history of the church? They cannot all be counterfeit, unless you are now willing to take a stand that only your own interpretation of the gifts is a valid one, and that you can somehow arbitrate whether a gift is of God or of the enemy.
Note that I'm not keen on the free expression of the gifts in a Pentecostal way. I am absolutely not a fan of the Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts, or Kenneth Copeland school. Not at all. I believe that those men have abused the church and the Holy Spirit by their personal gain from the purported giftings of God, and that they would utterly fail the test of a prophet. But, neither am I ready to say as strongly as you that the gifts have ceased, especially when I've seen them in action in less than "spectacular" ways, for the glory of God and the advance of His kingdom.
God is still on the throne, and can work a miracle today as well as when the 12 and Paul walked the earth -- but the choosing is His, not ours. We can only pray and ask. To eliminate that function from the church is to a priori decide that God has somehow now limited His holy and almighty power because someone's theology says so. From the same examples in Scripture, I see a God who can, as He wills, work in and through His "sent ones."
Dr. Walter
New Member
The term apostle is used in two senses. It is a technical term for the office of apostle as selected by Christ. This is limited to the twelve apostles to the Jews and the one apostle chosen by Christ to the Gentiles (Gal. 2:9). It is used in the non-technical sense as both a noun and verb in regard to missionaries "sent" (apostolized) out of the local church (Acts 11:22; 13:1-4 with 14:4). Hence, every church authorized missionary is an "apostle" in this sense.
The distinction is the first is a technical term for those personally chosen and sent by Christ Himself that meet the qualifications of Acts 1:21-22. The second refers to those selected by the Holy Spirit through the church and church sent (Acts 11:22: 14:4).
In the context of 2 Cor. 12:12 Paul is defending his office as chosen personally by Christ to be the one and only apostle to the Gentiles. Here is your chief difficulty. 2 Cor. 12:12 defines such things as "the signs" of this apostolic office. Such a statement would be rediculous if every child of God were characterized by such signs.
Again, 2 Cor. 12:12 demonstrates such things were "the signs" of that apostolic office and therefore such a statement is nonsense if the common believer were characterized by them in the same sense. The distinction is that the Apostles could convey then through laying on of their hands but the regular believer could not but had to receive them through the laying on of hands. If you examine Acts 2:1-6:1 you will find N
NE but the Apostles exercising such gifts.An overall study of the epistles of Paul clearly demonstrate that it was not apostleship in the sense of being sent out by the church that he defended but the apostleship directly by Christ that was equal to the 12 that he constantly defended. How could he say such things were "the signs" of an apostle if they were the common possession of all believers???? That makes no sense. He is again defending his apostolic office.
The office of apostle had no successors after the death of John as the qualifications for filling that office limit it to the first century (Acts 1;21-22) and Paul claimed to be the "last" of the apostles (Gr. eschatos). You are confusing the laying on hands for ordination with the laying on of apostolic hands to communicate gifts of the Holy Spirit. They are not the same.
We are not denying God works miracles or heals. We are talking about spiritual gifts or that which is given by God to perform such signs, miracles and wonders on a continuous basis. Also, we are not discussing Satanic imitation (2 Thes. 2:9) which is characterized by the word "lying" not because they are fake but because the confirm lies/false doctrine as truth.
Assuming that some of John's disciples lived to near the beginning of the 2nd century, I do not believe there are any credible cases since that time to this present time.
I firmly believe that signs, miracles and wonders in the last days are the sign of apostasy (Mt. 24:24; 2 Thes. 2:9).
Again Quenching the Holy Spirit....when will you reason through it good Doctor? You have blinded yourself & it is disconcerting because you yourself have negated your own ability to be given those gifts. very sad.
Dr. Walter
New Member
If you can point out where I have distorted any text I have given I am certainly open to consider the contextual factors that make you feel that I am wrong.
Ive already done that.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
I have gone back and tried to find where you have given any exegetical response to the scripture I presented and I can't find any. Perhaps you can point me to the post you believe provides such a response?
1 Corinthians 14:23-25 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all,and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!" Romans 12:4-8 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.:type:
WARNING: Any more such personal attacks will be immediately deleted.
You are quenching the Holy Spirit is an attack on Dr. Walter's person. And you are not God, and do not have the authority to make that call. Stop with the personal attacks.
Oh not me.....Ive been warned...LOL
Warned of personal attacks, yes.
But your failure to respond to Scripture is astounding.
You also fail to answer: Does your position on tongues agree with the statement of faith of the church you attend? Yes or no?
Anyone on this board has the right to question another poster.
The question remains why do you ignore the questions of others.
What are you hiding? This is a debate forum. If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the fire.