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Speaking in Tongues- What is it?
- Thread starter Claudia_T
- Start date
There were three major reasons for tongues:
1. The most prominent was that it was a sign to the unbelieving Jew, as put so plainly here.
2. It was to give revelation to those who did not have the needed revelation that they didn’t have until the New Testament was complete. That function also ceased at the end of the first century when the Book of Revelation was complete, thus making the canon of Scripture complete.
3. It was one of the signs (signs and wonders) that were the mark of an apostle.
These are the main reasons for the gift of tongues, and all of these reasons were completed at the end of the first century such that tongues has no profit or use today. The gift has ceased.
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1st Cor. Chapter 13 is about the overzealousness for the gifts of the Holy Spirit compared to the eternal, foundational love of God. To start the 8th verse it says "love never fails"and that is the context, context is everything. Paul is comparing the temporal nature of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to that of the love of God that never fails, that lasts for eternity in heaven. Paul is saying Love is with us now and will be in eternity but that the gifts are temporary and will no longer operate or be apparent when we are in heaven, perfect in the perfect wholeness of the Holy Spirit and all things. Verse 8 is not about the gifts ending in 98 A.D., completion of the written word or any other exotic extrapolation this side of perfection in heaven. In fact to distill that out of Ch.13 reminds me of the way some cults twist scriptures to get them to mean what they want to believe because the truth asks more of them than they are willing to commit to. It is not there. The chapter is simple. Paul wants us to remember the more excellent way of God's love and understand and be careful of overemphasizing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and remind us of that which is greater and lasts for eternity. That is the context. Love that never fails. Love was with them then and would be with them in eternity. The gifts of the Spirit are with them then but will not be with them in eternity. The context is clear. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are here to help all christians as long as they have to deal with a fallen world, or that is as long as they need help before all things are perfected. Do you really think God would pull out the help of the Helper while we are in a world like we have today. There are christians living in conditions now that would rival the dangerous conditions of the disciples day and need every bit of power and help from the Holy Spirit that they needed and I cannot say some today may need more when you consider some of the conditions going on around the world. We here in America are generally very protected indeed, with our freedom of speech and religion we are not pressured and threatened with persecution and death like some others around the world are exposed to. We are not so dependent on needing serious help from God, (we do, of course, but conditions of life here cast an illusion we don't), which allows erroneous trust in the flesh and things around us to keep us from the very deepest walk with God that we should have and it allows us to forget the necessity of the help of the Holy Spirit, and it is not an excuse, but we must rememeber those in missions, in China, in Islamic countries whose lives are on the line daily for Christ that are living like the disciples did. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are offered in full operation because God knows many of His people need help like never before.
1. The most prominent was that it was a sign to the unbelieving Jew, as put so plainly here.
2. It was to give revelation to those who did not have the needed revelation that they didn’t have until the New Testament was complete. That function also ceased at the end of the first century when the Book of Revelation was complete, thus making the canon of Scripture complete.
3. It was one of the signs (signs and wonders) that were the mark of an apostle.
These are the main reasons for the gift of tongues, and all of these reasons were completed at the end of the first century such that tongues has no profit or use today. The gift has ceased.
-------------
1st Cor. Chapter 13 is about the overzealousness for the gifts of the Holy Spirit compared to the eternal, foundational love of God. To start the 8th verse it says "love never fails"and that is the context, context is everything. Paul is comparing the temporal nature of the gifts of the Holy Spirit to that of the love of God that never fails, that lasts for eternity in heaven. Paul is saying Love is with us now and will be in eternity but that the gifts are temporary and will no longer operate or be apparent when we are in heaven, perfect in the perfect wholeness of the Holy Spirit and all things. Verse 8 is not about the gifts ending in 98 A.D., completion of the written word or any other exotic extrapolation this side of perfection in heaven. In fact to distill that out of Ch.13 reminds me of the way some cults twist scriptures to get them to mean what they want to believe because the truth asks more of them than they are willing to commit to. It is not there. The chapter is simple. Paul wants us to remember the more excellent way of God's love and understand and be careful of overemphasizing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and remind us of that which is greater and lasts for eternity. That is the context. Love that never fails. Love was with them then and would be with them in eternity. The gifts of the Spirit are with them then but will not be with them in eternity. The context is clear. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are here to help all christians as long as they have to deal with a fallen world, or that is as long as they need help before all things are perfected. Do you really think God would pull out the help of the Helper while we are in a world like we have today. There are christians living in conditions now that would rival the dangerous conditions of the disciples day and need every bit of power and help from the Holy Spirit that they needed and I cannot say some today may need more when you consider some of the conditions going on around the world. We here in America are generally very protected indeed, with our freedom of speech and religion we are not pressured and threatened with persecution and death like some others around the world are exposed to. We are not so dependent on needing serious help from God, (we do, of course, but conditions of life here cast an illusion we don't), which allows erroneous trust in the flesh and things around us to keep us from the very deepest walk with God that we should have and it allows us to forget the necessity of the help of the Holy Spirit, and it is not an excuse, but we must rememeber those in missions, in China, in Islamic countries whose lives are on the line daily for Christ that are living like the disciples did. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are offered in full operation because God knows many of His people need help like never before.
ChristianIssues
New Member
A short video on speaking in tongues
The following video is very helpful in understanding the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge and why they ceased.
Speaking In Tongues Part A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6fIUpvZUI
God bless,
Mick
The following video is very helpful in understanding the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge and why they ceased.
Speaking In Tongues Part A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi6fIUpvZUI
God bless,
Mick
If your saying that the gifts of the holy spirit have ceased to exist today, then prove it in scripture please. The time line explanation doesn't do it for me but a truly understood reference to 1 Cor 13 would provide a sufficient answer in and of itself to criticisms. After viewing this video, can you see what rubbish you are asked to believe by this kind of exposition? We are told that the coming of of the New Testament scriptures puts us into a place of perfection; whereas if you look at verse 12 it actually says: "For now we see" - that is the apostle and others. The apostle is included with all other Christian believers before NT canon, much of which was written by Paul himself, had been completed. We read "Now we come and are complete "face to face: Now I know in part, but then"- which they say means the completion of the Scriptures- "shall I know even as also I am known."
You see what this involves? It means that you & I, who have the Scriptures open before us, know much more than the apostle Paul of God's truth. That is what it means & nothing less, if that argument is correct. It means that we are altogether superior to the early church & even to the apostles themselves, including the apostle Paul! It means that we are now in a position in which we know "face to face" that "we know, even as also we are known" by God because we have the Scriptures. And of course this is all fantasy.
What Paul is, of course, dealing with in 1 Cor 13 is the contrast between the highest & the best that Christians can ever know in this world & in this life & what he will know in the glory everlasting. The "now" and the "then" are not the time before and after the Scripture were given, because that, as I have said, puts us in a position entirely superior to the apostles & prophets who are the foundation of the Christian church and on whose very work we have to rely. It is inconsistent & contradictory-indeed, there is only one word to describe such a view, it is nonsense.
The "then" is the glory everlasting. It is only then that I shall know, even as also I am known; for then we shall see him as he is. It will be direct and "face to face". No longer, as Paul puts it again in 2 Cor 3:18 as an image or a reflection, but direct, absolute, full & perfect knowledge.
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The Scriptures never anywhere say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were only temporary--never! I believe I have given proper explanation (see prior above comment on 1 Corinthians 13)
Regardless of whether this story is true or not, the fact remains that there HAS to be an interpreter. Otherwise, the person(s) speaking in tongues must remain silent.
My one experience with people supposedly speaking in tongues with NO one interpreting made me feel VERY uncomfortable. The one I specifically remember was a woman who VERY LOUDLY above everyone else kept repeating something that sounded like "Ah ditty". EVERYONE but me was speaking some gibberish, and NO one was interpreting. I do not believe any of it was from God.
What I do believe is that it was all from the people involved just putting on a show in order to impress others on "Look at how spiritual I am! I'm speaking in tongues!"
Paul said that he was glad he spoke in tongues; he also said that he would rather speak 5 words of understanding than 10,000 words that no one understood. If it doesn't edify the people, then can it truly be from God?
My one experience with people supposedly speaking in tongues with NO one interpreting made me feel VERY uncomfortable. The one I specifically remember was a woman who VERY LOUDLY above everyone else kept repeating something that sounded like "Ah ditty". EVERYONE but me was speaking some gibberish, and NO one was interpreting. I do not believe any of it was from God.
What I do believe is that it was all from the people involved just putting on a show in order to impress others on "Look at how spiritual I am! I'm speaking in tongues!"
Paul said that he was glad he spoke in tongues; he also said that he would rather speak 5 words of understanding than 10,000 words that no one understood. If it doesn't edify the people, then can it truly be from God?
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Jon.... You are correct on all points. And When the church gives the impression to the outsider that she consists of a number of maniacs, she is doing the exact opposite of what our Lord intended her to do.
But as I have said before Scripture does not support that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are temporary. Rather the teaching of the Scripture is that these things are to be considered in terms of the lordship of the Spirit. It is He who decides & chooses & by the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit. And we must submit to that & be ready for that. Heaven forbid that we puny mortals reject the Spirit by laying down dogmatic positions either because we dislike something or worse, that we cant fully understand.
All things must be judged in the light of scriptures, and we must not twist them to suit our theory or argument.:jesus:
All things must be judged in the light of scriptures, and we must not twist them to suit our theory or argument.:jesus:
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Dr. Walter
New Member
It is revelatory gifts that are being discussed in I Cor. 13:8. In I Cor. 13:8 tongues ceases prior to the gifts of prophecy and knowledge.
This fact is not merely due to the middle voice used for tongues which means it dies out of itelf, and the passive voice used for prophecy and knowledge but it is also indicated by dropping tongues entirely out in verse 9 forward in describing what brings prophecy and knowledge to cease - that which is perfect.
In contrast, how tongues dies out of itself prior to cessation of prophecy and knowledge is taken up in I Cor. 14:19-22.
The gifts of prophecy and knowledge are gifts necessary for the producing, writing and completion of Scriptures. Hence, they find their fulfillment in completing the Biblical canon. However, the Biblical canon which is the prophetic word and revealed knowledge of God is only superseded in the new heaven and earth when it is replaced by the incarnate Word dwelling in our presence. Thus it will cease only when that which is perfect is come.
However, if you want to know when the gift of tongues ceased of itself then that is taken up in I Corithians 14:18-23.
This fact is not merely due to the middle voice used for tongues which means it dies out of itelf, and the passive voice used for prophecy and knowledge but it is also indicated by dropping tongues entirely out in verse 9 forward in describing what brings prophecy and knowledge to cease - that which is perfect.
In contrast, how tongues dies out of itself prior to cessation of prophecy and knowledge is taken up in I Cor. 14:19-22.
The gifts of prophecy and knowledge are gifts necessary for the producing, writing and completion of Scriptures. Hence, they find their fulfillment in completing the Biblical canon. However, the Biblical canon which is the prophetic word and revealed knowledge of God is only superseded in the new heaven and earth when it is replaced by the incarnate Word dwelling in our presence. Thus it will cease only when that which is perfect is come.
However, if you want to know when the gift of tongues ceased of itself then that is taken up in I Corithians 14:18-23.
As you say Doctor Wally, the whole of that 14th chapter is critical to understanding tongues & its significance. It is designed to show that tongues must never be the one thing to be talked about; it must not be the one thing that everybody covets nor must it monopolize all the attention-- that is in fact what Paul condemns. The gifts must be put in the right order. The gift of tongues is a very spectacular and exciting one, and that is exactly where the devil sees his greatest opportunity. He gets people to lose there sense of balance & proportion , so that this becomes the center. It should not be; it is always put last in the list, and seems to be the least of the gifts.
The gift of Tongues is a spiritual gift; "I would that ye all speak with tongues", says Paul He says that he himself speaks in tongues, and thank God for it, but he keeps it in order & in its right place.
Now as we look at I Corinthians 14:18-23 starting at 18 we read, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all; NOTE: he doesnt say "I speak with more tongues than you (so Paul didn't say that he knew more foreign languages than the Corinthians did...because there is allot of suggestion that tongues were foreign languages). What he says is he speaks more in tongues. It is an adverb; he means more frequently.
Now if it is true to say that Paul can speak in tongues whenever he likes, what is the point of the apostle's statement? If it is true of all who have the gift of speaking in tongues that they can do it whenever they like at will--what is the point of Paul's saying that he speaks in tongues "more frequently" than they do? There is no purpose in saying that and in the next verse 1 Cor 14:19 "Yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue"
There is only one explanation of this statement, which is that Paul is saying, "I think I know more than any of you what it is to be taken up by the SPIRIT."
Folks this is really something extraordinary, remarkable , glorious & exceptional.....Paul is boasting & he is bragging more than the rest of the Corinthians with him that he knows more frequently than any of them what it is to have the Holy Spirit taking hold of him & having him speak in tongues with & more than them
in 20 Brethren, be not children in understanding ....They are behaving like children & Paul was telling them to have a level of proportion in regards to these matters
22, Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them who believe, but to them that believe not. IE Paul is saying the gift of tongues (and all gifts of the Holy Spirit) are evangelistic. The Holy Spirit is not given that we may have wonderful experiences or marvelous sensations within us. It is so that the Lord may be known to those who yet dont believe.
23, ' If therefore the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues,and there come in those that are unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that you are mad?" So there was great disorder, the Corinthians were not viewing their gifts in the right way, they all wanted to show off & were all speaking in tongues at the same time. Obviously they were lacking in a scene of discipline. Paul must return order.
Personally, I don't see how any of these Scriptures shows that the gift of tongues ceases, rather quite the contrary.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is true - the Gifts of the Spirit in 1Cor 12 are to continue and as Eph 4 points out - they are to continue until the end of time.
However what commonly passes for the gift of tongues does not pass the test of scripture as being the gift listed in 1Cor 12.
in Acts 2 they spoke - and the people heard languages - (not cursing of course).
In 1Cor 14 the person speaking has complete control over content of what is spoken.
in 1Cor 14 the person speaking is not being controlled by God to speak - rather they are "choosing" to speak or not to speak so that if they do it out of order - in the wrong way - they can not claim that God visited them at that very moment and prompted them to do it "wrong".
in Christ,
Bob
You are not giving me full exposition of chapter & verse here Bob as I have taken great pains to have given you so I will remain unconvinced until you explain yourself in greater detail & then be prepaired for me to rebut it if unconvinced. So if you want to open your bible & go forth.....please be my guest. Until then I remain unconvinced.
quickly there note Cor 14:5: the Apostle Paul states ... I wish you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you prophesied. And when Paul says that he would that they all speak in tongues, he is clearly saying that they all did not. That, it seems to me, should be sufficient in and of itself. Right?
Jesus Is Lord
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Those who claim that tongues have ceased are adding to Scripture...
Correct and allow me to say that in Scripture is all the truth we need, and what we need is the illumination of the Holy Spirit upon our minds to enable us to understand it and expound it. However I do not believe in squelching the Holy Spirit who has sovereignty. So then, the main conclusion stands- that these questions of gifts is entirely within the sovereignty of the Spirit and that because of that we should always be open, in mind and in heart, to anything that the Spirit of God may choose to do in His Sovereignty.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
I believe you missed Paul's point completely. His point is to demonstrate that this gift is not primarily given to be used in the churches but on the mission field in regard to Israel (vv. 18-23). Paul used it according to its Pentecostal purpose (Acts 2:6-11) as a "sign" to Israel that Jesus is the Christ and as a warning of pending national judgment for refusing the Messiah (Isa. 26:11-15). In verse 18-19 Paul demonstrates by personal use the proper place for tongues -as a missionary gift (v. 18) rather than to be exercised in the church (v. 19).
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
In verses 20-23 Paul provides the biblical purpose in God giving the gift of tongues and thus the mature use of it (v. 20). He quotes Isaiah 25:12 demonstrating it was designed for the Jews (v. 21) as a "sign" (v. 22) to verify that the Messiah ("the rest") had come to Israel but the prophecy also predicts their response "yet for all that they will not hear me, saith the Lord."
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
In verse 22 Paul demonstrates exactly why God gave this gift and for precisely what people He gave this gift for. He gave it as a "sign" (v. 22) for UNBELIEVING Jews ("not to them that believe"). It is given for the LEARNED unbeliever (Jew) not the "unlearned" unbeliever (gentile). Hence, it is not given for the church (believers) or edification of church members - that is not its purpose.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
The principles in verses 1-19 will eliminate its use in the church and the guidelines that follow will restrict its use in the church while it is being eliminated.
1. Love is the rule for the use of all gifts and love "seeketh not its own" - no gift is given for SELF-edification. 14:1
2. Edification of others takes precedence and if all members are not edified by the gift it is not to be used - 14:2-11.
3. Personal use should be restricted if the person exercising tongues is not MENTALLY edified just as other members in the church 14:12-17
4. The church is the wrong place to exercise this gift - 14:18-22.
5. If used in the church
a. No more than three in a service - v. 27
b. No more than one at a time - v. 27
c. No one if no interpreter - v.28
d. No one if out of control - v. 32
e. No women exercising public speaking gifts - vv. 33-35
6. If you think you are spiritual and don't recognize and obey these apostolic injunctions then your in defiance of God's Word and ignorant - vv. 37-38
7. Everyting is permitted when it is done in accordance with this apostolic order - vv. 39-40.
When the Jews rejected this sign, its purpose ceased. When the churches obeyed these instructions it CEASED OF ITSELF just as I Cor. 13:8 states clearly.
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What I find interesting here, E, W, & F, is that you are responding to Sonjeo, whose last post was in 2005, five years ago. Also this thread was dug up by a first time poster, ChristianIssues, who resurrected this thread after five years and has only made that one post since joining the board. It makes me wonder.
I have been in the pastorate in IFB churches for over 30 years. What do you think?
Womanish? That doesn't sound like a compliment.
Here's a chance to redeem yourself:
So... what does a woman 'sound like' when they post to a message board?