Specific threats to Christians about losing eternal life!

[Thomas Helwys]

God's entire universe is based on His system of free will.

The "whole point " of not destroying Satan and his angels the moment they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

The "whole point" of not destroying Adam and Eve just as soon as they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

We have 6000 years of sin - to "inform" the universe about the sin experiment and to see how utterly sin fails to provide the fruits of the Spirit.

In a free will system decisions are ensured via compelling evidence.

In a Calvinist robot no-free will model - there is no need at all for evience or proof or Job-style experiment when God is directly challenged as in the book of Job. And no need to allow Satan to sin in the first place because it goes directly back to a defective maker that made that robot sin. When FORD produces a defective truck --- nobody blames the truck.

But even so - even if you do allow the robot-Satan to sin - then wiping him out immediately and sparing every other robot the pain of his continued program of deception is the only logical path.

Conversely - obliterating free will after the 2nd coming - (because presumably this is the only way a Calvinist can think of to ensure a peaceful eternity) would simply be to admit defeat and that the entire program - 6000 years of sin and suffering and the death of Christ Himself - was all pointless.

Excellent!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Will you still have this choice to reject Him after you enter into eternal life?


Is this a hard question?????
__________________

Is the following a hard question: When does God take away your right to choose? If you never had that right, then you don't "love" God. If that right is taken away after your conversion, you don't love God, either. Coerced love and loyalty are not love and loyalty.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Is the following a hard question: When does God take away your right to choose? If you never had that right, then you don't "love" God. If that right is taken away after your conversion, you don't love God, either. Coerced love and loyalty are not love and loyalty.

You just don't get it, Thomas...

We love Him because He first loved us. He never forced us to love Him. We chose to do so.

We can never lose our Salvation because we belong to Him. We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. When His sheep stray, He leaves the fold and goes and retrieves the erring sheep. That sheep never stopped being His possession.

We are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption of the purchased possession. Though we may give in to temptation from time to time, we can never break that seal. Nor will He break that seal. Our Salvation is secure UNTIL the day of redemption of the purchased possession.

 

[The Biblicist]

Is the following a hard question: When does God take away your right to choose? If you never had that right, then you don't "love" God. If that right is taken away after your conversion, you don't love God, either. Coerced love and loyalty are not love and loyalty.

Stop playing games. Just answer her question! Your answer reveals deep ignorance about simplistic gospel truths. If you don't understand that regeneration is a supernatural change that affects the human will and practice (Philip. 2:13 - For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure) differently than before new birth, then you understand little of the gospel. Moreover, if you don't think glorification makes even a greater change in regard to indwelling sin then your theology is hopeless.

The issue here is that you fundementally do not understand the role of indwelling sin versus the role of the new creation now in children of God. All who reject eternal security are fundementallly in deni.al or ignorance of this basic fact

 

[steaver]

You just don't get it, Thomas...

We love Him because He first loved us. He never forced us to love Him. We chose to do so.

We can never lose our Salvation because we belong to Him. We are His people and the sheep of His pasture. When His sheep stray, He leaves the fold and goes and retrieves the erring sheep. That sheep never stopped being His possession.

We are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption of the purchased possession. Though we may give in to temptation from time to time, we can never break that seal. Nor will He break that seal. Our Salvation is secure UNTIL the day of redemption of the purchased possession.

Correct! And that seal is God's seal, no man, no believer can break it (cannot imagine why a believer would decide they would rather go to hell, but even that ill thinking will be overcome on redemption day), only God could possibly break such a seal and He says "I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you".

And also God's Word declares sanctification of the believer WILL BE COMPLETED. "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it]. (1Thess5)

I thank God! That I need not concern myself with keeping myself saved which frees me up to focus on bearing fruit for the Kingdom of God. I work for the Lord because I love the Lord, and not because I want to keep myself saved or fear I might not be good enough, I already know I am not good enough, thank God for Jesus Christ and His gift of the Holy Spirit! Free indeed! Praise Him!

 

[steaver]

Stop playing games. Just answer her question! Your answer reveals deep ignorance about simplistic gospel truths. If you don't understand that regeneration is a supernatural change that affects the human will and practice (Philip. 2:13 - For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure) differently than before new birth, then you understand little of the gospel. Moreover, if you don't think glorification makes even a greater change in regard to indwelling sin then your theology is hopeless.

The issue here is that you fundementally do not understand the role of indwelling sin versus the role of the new creation now in children of God. All who reject eternal security are fundementallly in deni.al or ignorance of this basic fact

Amen! ......."then your theology is hopeless". When I examine myself, if not for the seal of the Holy Spirit, I would be hopelessly condemned to hell...for I am a sinful man :tear: ...but then I see Jesus :love2: Thank God!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Stop playing games. Just answer her question! Your answer reveals deep ignorance about simplistic gospel truths. If you don't understand that regeneration is a supernatural change that affects the human will and practice (Philip. 2:13 - For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure) differently than before new birth, then you understand little of the gospel. Moreover, if you don't think glorification makes even a greater change in regard to indwelling sin then your theology is hopeless.

The issue here is that you fundementally do not understand the role of indwelling sin versus the role of the new creation now in children of God. All who reject eternal security are fundementallly in deni.al or ignorance of this basic fact

I read where you had been gone from the forum for a period of time, so I took some time to read your past posts. Your method of debate is to exalt yourself and your assumed knowledge while disparaging, demeaning, and belittling others. All that shows is your lack of fruit and your immaturity. Your tactics will not work with me because you see I have the necessary tools to counter your obvious foolhardiness and stupidity.

I understand that regeneration affects the will, but that effect does not include the removal of the will or the ability to choose.

The original English Baptists disagreed with you about eternal security. You, arrogant and rude sir, are lacking in debate skills and spiritual maturity. Your answer also reveals deep ignorance about the nature of God. You have swallowed determinism hook, line, and sinker. A teaspoon of baking soda in water might help you to digest it, but regrettably will do nothing for your demeanor and disposition. Contemplating the ethical teachings of Jesus could do it, but your pride and arrogance might still get in the way. You'll need to deal with that, but I expect you are unwilling. You would rather people bow to your presumed superior knowledge while belittling theirs.

All right, you may now continue with your immature and bloated blather.

 

[Amy.G]

Is the following a hard question: When does God take away your right to choose? If you never had that right, then you don't "love" God. If that right is taken away after your conversion, you don't love God, either. Coerced love and loyalty are not love and loyalty.

Is that your answer? If so, then you have just said that even in eternity you will have the choice to leave God. What you are describing is temporary life based on your own works. That is not salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

God's entire universe is based on His system of free will.

The "whole point " of not destroying Satan and his angels the moment they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

The "whole point" of not destroying Adam and Eve just as soon as they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

We have 6000 years of sin - to "inform" the universe about the sin experiment and to see how utterly sin fails to provide the fruits of the Spirit.

In a free will system decisions are ensured via compelling evidence.

In a Calvinist robot no-free will model - there is no need at all for evience or proof or Job-style experiment when God is directly challenged as in the book of Job. And no need to allow Satan to sin in the first place because it goes directly back to a defective maker that made that robot sin. When FORD produces a defective truck --- nobody blames the truck.

But even so - even if you do allow the robot-Satan to sin - then wiping him out immediately and sparing every other robot the pain of his continued program of deception is the only logical path.

Conversely - obliterating free will after the 2nd coming - (because presumably this is the only way a Calvinist can think of to ensure a peaceful eternity) would simply be to admit defeat and that the entire program - 6000 years of sin and suffering and the death of Christ Himself - was all pointless.

God is etrnally Soveregn over all his creation, so its based upon Himself deciding in the ultimate sense what needs to happen, not "full free will!"

You have a faulty premise there, which leads to seeing salvation as being conditional, based upon 'free will"

 

[Yeshua1]

Excellent!

not really, as he just basically undercut the Gospel, as he made us the saviour, and not the Lord!

 

[The Biblicist]

I read where you had been gone from the forum for a period of time, so I took some time to read your past posts. Your method of debate is to exalt yourself and your assumed knowledge while disparaging, demeaning, and belittling others. All that shows is your lack of fruit and your immaturity. Your tactics will not work with me because you see I have the necessary tools to counter your obvious foolhardiness and stupidity.

I understand that regeneration affects the will, but that effect does not include the removal of the will or the ability to choose.

The original English Baptists disagreed with you about eternal security. You, arrogant and rude sir, are lacking in debate skills and spiritual maturity. Your answer also reveals deep ignorance about the nature of God. You have swallowed determinism hook, line, and sinker. A teaspoon of baking soda in water might help you to digest it, but regrettably will do nothing for your demeanor and disposition. Contemplating the ethical teachings of Jesus could do it, but your pride and arrogance might still get in the way. You'll need to deal with that, but I expect you are unwilling. You would rather people bow to your presumed superior knowledge while belittling theirs.

All right, you may now continue with your immature and bloated blather.

I simply told you the truth. You ignored her question because you could not answer it. I said "if" you don't understand and "if" you think....

I never called you a single solitary name or said anything about your person.

Your tactic is like all false teachers, when they are unable to deal with substance and are exposed for not dealing with substance they assume the martyr characteristic and transform their exposure into some kind of personal persecution. That is an old bandwagon well worn out by every heretic in existence.

Now for facts:

1. The Human will has freedom within the nature of man not external to it. Not even God has a will "free" to act contrary to his own nature. He CANNOT will anything contrary to his own nature and neither can fallen man - Rom. 8:7-8 and that is precisely why Paul says such "CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:8) nor can anyone who is "in the flesh" = unregnerated.

2. The new birth does not provide the human will with power to overcome indwelling sin (Rom. 7:18). The redeemed man has no more will power to overcome sin any more or less after regeneration as before regeneration. The power is in submission to the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit = walking in the Spirit = filled with the Spirit.

3. Children of God are not kept by the power of the human will but by the power of God based upon grace not upon works. Simply because whenever the human will overcomes the power of sin it is only because "God worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" and at all other times the power of sin is working both to will and to do of its good pleasure. This is the nature of our internal warfare. The redeemed nature cannot will contrary to its own nature which is created in true holiness and righteousness. The fallen nature cannot will anything contrary to its enmity for God and rebellion against the law of God. IT NEVER WILLS TBEY GOD - NEVER. The new nature NEVER WILLS TO DISOBEY GOD - NEVER! The problem is that the new nature has no will POWER over sin (Rom. 7:18) and thus its will can only be enforced by the power of God's Will, the power of the indwelling Spirit. Our ultimate salvation never rests upon the will of the flesh but on the will of the renewed man kept by the power of God. When we are glorified the old nature is removed completely and the glorified man no longer has the ability to WILL to sin.

4. The sins of the redeemed play no role in gaining entrance into heaven or remaining children of God. When Christ paid for their sins, their sins were all yet future and they were sins they were going to commit and do commit in their lives or else Christ need never pay for them.

5. God uses those sins in our lives that Christ already paid for in full to work for our good. He uses them to keep us humble, to use as abrasives to our new nature to motivate us to submit to the Holy Spirit, to teach us about the weak area's of our live that need work on, to accomplish His will in this world through both good and bad things (Psa. 76;10).

6. Obtaining heaven is solely by grace WITHOUT OUR WORKS based solely upon his finished work and his ongoing work "in us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" according to His PURPOSE OF GRACE which he has determined for the life of every child of God in keeping with gifts, measure of grace to perform His will for our particular life.

7. This is why all who reject eternal security must either reject two opposing natures in redeemed man or must believe in living above sin - they have no other options.

 

[evangelist-7]

... regeneration is a supernatural change that affects the human will and practice (Philip. 2:13 - For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure) differently than before new birth, then you understand little of the gospel. Moreover, if you don't think glorification makes even a greater change in regard to indwelling sin then your theology is hopeless.
The issue here is that you fundementally do not understand the role of indwelling sin versus the role of the new creation now in children of God. All who reject eternal security are fundementallly in deni.al or ignorance of this basic fact

Everyone knows the birth from above changes people's understanding, attitudes, opinions, etc.
They are new creations ... all things have become new!
Except for the old man sin nature, the free will, etc. (Paul got a tad carried away).
Yes, the sin nature and the free will still remaineth! ... Oh, woe is me!

Some BACs eventually choose to go back into their old sins, etc.
And if they die in this state, they have forfeited their precious salvation.
That is what all of the many dozens of warnings are all about.
WARNING ... Do not count on God having unconditional grace! ... as in OSAS!
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Everyone knows the birth from above changes people's understanding, attitudes, opinions, etc.
They are new creations ... all things have become new!
Except for the old man sin nature, the free will, etc. (Paul got a tad carried away).
Yes, the sin nature and the free will still remaineth! ... Oh, woe is me!

Some BACs eventually choose to go back into their old sins, etc.
And if they die in this state, they have forfeited their precious salvation.
That is what all of the many dozens of warnings are all about.
WARNING ... Do not count on God having unconditional grace! ... as in OSAS!
.

You missed the whole point! The fallen nature NEVER choose to submit to God or love God AFTER new birth. The New Nature NEVER chooses to disobey God. The difference in a child of God at any specific point in time is what nature is in control of the will. The new nature is NEVER in control of the will outside of submission to the power of the indwelling Spirit. Indwelling sin is NEVER in control of the will when the new nature is EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit. We redeem whatever TIME we live by the power of the indwelling Spirit and all other time is LOST forever.

Born again Christians sin all the time they are not "filled" with the Spirit and even when they are filled with the Spirit they are not free from sins of OMISSION which require absolute sinless perfection (1 Jn. 1:8-10). So there is no sinless perfection at any point in regard to our own lives.

However, it is sinless perfection that is required to enter heaven and that is obtained solely by the Person and works of Christ as our substitute to have satisfied all the demands of the Law ONCE AND FOR ALL as a FINISHED work in his earthly life.


Therefore, our TIME has nothing to do with entering heaven whether that time is saved or lost (1 Cor. 3:11-15). All of our time if potentially lost does not mean the regenerate man loses his soul (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Why? Because "unconditional grace" is oxymoronic as the very meaning of "grace" is "unconditional" or without personal merits.

The difference between a saved and lost man is not sin, it is the desire expressed in Romans 7:18 in spite of sin. It is the inabiity to escape the chastening hand of God when we sin (heb. 12:5-10).

You cannot be unborn as a child of God any more than you can as a human child - impossible - Jn. 5:24; 6:37; 10:28-30;

Those who are UNBORN in the EYES OF MEN were never born again by the Spirit of God in the first place (1 Jn. 2:29). Good works MANIFEST true children of God but not perfectly as there are some CHARACTERISTICALLY external righteous people who will go to hell (Mt. 7:23 - mormons, JW's, Catholics, SDA's etc.). Neither does the lack of CHARACTERISTIC external righteousness unborn children of God (Lot, Solomon, etc.).

The new birth puts a PERMENANT desire within the child of God to choose righteousness in spite of sin (Rom. 7:18). That desire is kept by the power of God in spite of our sins (philip. 1:6; 2:13). That desire is there when we are sinning as it is found in the inward man that ALWAYS delights in the law of God (Rom. 7:22).

Your belief is not one whit any difference than Muslims, Hindu's or Catholics in regard to the bottom line of salvation. justificaiton by works!

 

[The Biblicist]

You missed the whole point! The fallen nature NEVER choose to submit to God or love God AFTER new birth. The New Nature NEVER chooses to disobey God. The difference in a child of God at any specific point in time is what nature is in control of the will. The new nature is NEVER in control of the will outside of submission to the power of the indwelling Spirit. Indwelling sin is NEVER in control of the will when the new nature is EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit. We redeem whatever TIME we live by the power of the indwelling Spirit and all other time is LOST forever.

Born again Christians sin all the time they are not "filled" with the Spirit and even when they are filled with the Spirit they are not free from sins of OMISSION which require absolute sinless perfection (1 Jn. 1:8-10). So there is no sinless perfection at any point in regard to our own lives.

However, it is sinless perfection that is required to enter heaven and that is obtained solely by the Person and works of Christ as our substitute to have satisfied all the demands of the Law ONCE AND FOR ALL as a FINISHED work in his earthly life.


Therefore, our TIME has nothing to do with entering heaven whether that time is saved or lost (1 Cor. 3:11-15). All of our time if potentially lost does not mean the regenerate man loses his soul (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Why? Because "unconditional grace" is oxymoronic as the very meaning of "grace" is "unconditional" or without personal merits.

The difference between a saved and lost man is not sin, it is the desire expressed in Romans 7:18 in spite of sin. It is the inabiity to escape the chastening hand of God when we sin (heb. 12:5-10).

You cannot be unborn as a child of God any more than you can as a human child - impossible - Jn. 5:24; 6:37; 10:28-30;

Those who are UNBORN in the EYES OF MEN were never born again by the Spirit of God in the first place (1 Jn. 2:29). Good works MANIFEST true children of God but not perfectly as there are some CHARACTERISTICALLY external righteous people who will go to hell (Mt. 7:23 - mormons, JW's, Catholics, SDA's etc.). Neither does the lack of CHARACTERISTIC external righteousness unborn children of God (Lot, Solomon, etc.).

The new birth puts a PERMENANT desire within the child of God to choose righteousness in spite of sin (Rom. 7:18). That desire is kept by the power of God in spite of our sins (philip. 1:6; 2:13). That desire is there when we are sinning as it is found in the inward man that ALWAYS delights in the law of God (Rom. 7:22).

Your belief is not one whit any difference than Muslims, Hindu's or Catholics in regard to the bottom line of salvation. justificaiton by works!

The Christian's life has no bearing on entrance into heaven. The life of Christ obtained that.

The life of a Christian is about present JOY-USEFULNESS - ETERNAL REWARDS and glorifying God here and now - nothing more, nothing less.

The only aspect of your Christian life that is SAVED is the TIME spent under submission of the Holy Spirit as all the rest of your TIME is eternally lost. However, IF your whole TIME after new birth were lost it would not have one whit difference upon entrance into heaven as entrance into heaven requires A SPOTLESS LIFE - Mt. 5:20;46 which none of you have!

The new birth has nothing to do with OUR FLESH or the law of indwelling sin but with a NEW CREATION that is created in TRUE HOLINESSS and RIGHTEOUSNESS and NEVER CHOOSE TO DO ANYTHING BUT PLEASE GOD at any time in its existence. It NEVER chooses to sin and CANNOT choose to sin because sin is contrary to its nature just as God cannot choose to sin becuase sin is contrary to God's nature and the new man is BORN OF GOD.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I simply told you the truth. You ignored her question because you could not answer it. I said "if" you don't understand and "if" you think....

I never called you a single solitary name or said anything about your person.

Your tactic is like all false teachers, when they are unable to deal with substance and are exposed for not dealing with substance they assume the martyr characteristic and transform their exposure into some kind of personal persecution. That is an old bandwagon well worn out by every heretic in existence.

Now for facts:

1. The Human will has freedom within the nature of man not external to it. Not even God has a will "free" to act contrary to his own nature. He CANNOT will anything contrary to his own nature and neither can fallen man - Rom. 8:7-8 and that is precisely why Paul says such "CANNOT please God" (Rom. 8:8) nor can anyone who is "in the flesh" = unregnerated.

2. The new birth does not provide the human will with power to overcome indwelling sin (Rom. 7:18). The redeemed man has no more will power to overcome sin any more or less after regeneration as before regeneration. The power is in submission to the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit = walking in the Spirit = filled with the Spirit.

3. Children of God are not kept by the power of the human will but by the power of God based upon grace not upon works. Simply because whenever the human will overcomes the power of sin it is only because "God worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" and at all other times the power of sin is working both to will and to do of its good pleasure. This is the nature of our internal warfare. The redeemed nature cannot will contrary to its own nature which is created in true holiness and righteousness. The fallen nature cannot will anything contrary to its enmity for God and rebellion against the law of God. IT NEVER WILLS TBEY GOD - NEVER. The new nature NEVER WILLS TO DISOBEY GOD - NEVER! The problem is that the new nature has no will POWER over sin (Rom. 7:18) and thus its will can only be enforced by the power of God's Will, the power of the indwelling Spirit. Our ultimate salvation never rests upon the will of the flesh but on the will of the renewed man kept by the power of God. When we are glorified the old nature is removed completely and the glorified man no longer has the ability to WILL to sin.

4. The sins of the redeemed play no role in gaining entrance into heaven or remaining children of God. When Christ paid for their sins, their sins were all yet future and they were sins they were going to commit and do commit in their lives or else Christ need never pay for them.

5. God uses those sins in our lives that Christ already paid for in full to work for our good. He uses them to keep us humble, to use as abrasives to our new nature to motivate us to submit to the Holy Spirit, to teach us about the weak area's of our live that need work on, to accomplish His will in this world through both good and bad things (Psa. 76;10).

6. Obtaining heaven is solely by grace WITHOUT OUR WORKS based solely upon his finished work and his ongoing work "in us both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" according to His PURPOSE OF GRACE which he has determined for the life of every child of God in keeping with gifts, measure of grace to perform His will for our particular life.

7. This is why all who reject eternal security must either reject two opposing natures in redeemed man or must believe in living above sin - they have no other options.

I always answer all questions put to me.

You wouldn't know facts if they bit you in your rear.

You may call me a heretic, implicitly or explicitly, but that shows the truth of what I said about you. You are a liar and slanderer. Your fruit is rotten.

There are many scriptural verses that refute the false doctrine of OSAS or eternal security. I don't need to recount them here, as this has been done many times.

OSAS is one of the most harmful doctrines ever conceived by the human mind, as are all the other pints of Calvinism. I will oppose them with every fiber of my being. They give a totally false view of the nature of God.

Fatalistic determinism is a lie of the devil. Spreading it does great harm to the nature and character of God, and it does great harm to humanity.

I am in good company with Thomas Helwys and the other original English Baptists on this. Later Baptists have departed from the views of these first English Baptists.

I have a good relationship on this forum with those who believe directly opposite from me on this issue, so that is not the issue between you and me. The issue with us is your demeanor, not our differences in doctrine. As I said, your posts show that your fruit is rotten to the core.

I have presented the truth and have responded, for the last time, to your libel. You are not worth the time and effort.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Is that your answer? If so, then you have just said that even in eternity you will have the choice to leave God. What you are describing is temporary life based on your own works. That is not salvation.

Those are your words. Congratulations on putting them in my mouth.

I don't believe God ever takes away out right and ability to choose. Make of that what you will, as you have already done. I am content to let God be God. Too many evidently are not.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

not really, as he just basically undercut the Gospel, as he made us the saviour, and not the Lord!

An old Calvinist dodge with no truth whatsoever in it.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

One who has the mindset that he or she can "stop believing" any time they wish obviously does not have a relationship with The Lord. One cannot stop believing who has a relationship wIth The Lord, because The Lord is ever present with that one.

His Holy Spirit reminds the believer of God's great love and the believer feels the chastening of The Lord when he is in need of discipline.

One who is saved has a working relationship with Him. That one hears His voice and follows Him.

 

[Amy.G]

Those are your words. Congratulations on putting them in my mouth.

I don't believe God ever takes away out right and ability to choose. Make of that what you will, as you have already done. I am content to let God be God. Too many evidently are not.

If you would give a straight answer I would put words in your mouth.

 

[Amy.G]

I meant to say, "If you would give a straight answer I would not put words in your mouth."