Specific threats to Christians about losing eternal life!

[The Biblicist]

I always answer all questions put to me.

You wouldn't know facts if they bit you in your rear.

You may call me a heretic, implicitly or explicitly, but that shows the truth of what I said about you. You are a liar and slanderer. Your fruit is rotten.

There are many scriptural verses that refute the false doctrine of OSAS or eternal security. I don't need to recount them here, as this has been done many times.

OSAS is one of the most harmful doctrines ever conceived by the human mind, as are all the other pints of Calvinism. I will oppose them with every fiber of my being. They give a totally false view of the nature of God.

Fatalistic determinism is a lie of the devil. Spreading it does great harm to the nature and character of God, and it does great harm to humanity.

I am in good company with Thomas Helwys and the other original English Baptists on this. Later Baptists have departed from the views of these first English Baptists.

I have a good relationship on this forum with those who believe directly opposite from me on this issue, so that is not the issue between you and me. The issue with us is your demeanor, not our differences in doctrine. As I said, your posts show that your fruit is rotten to the core.

I have presented the truth and have responded, for the last time, to your libel. You are not worth the time and effort.

Once again you ignore what is placed squarely before and choose to run up your martyr flag.

 

[BobRyan]

Stop playing games. Just answer her question! Your answer reveals deep ignorance about simplistic gospel truths. If you don't understand that regeneration is a supernatural change that affects the human will and practice (Philip. 2:13 - For it is God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure) differently than before new birth, then you understand little of the gospel. Moreover, if you don't think glorification makes even a greater change in regard to indwelling sin then your theology is hopeless.

The issue here is that you fundementally do not understand the role of indwelling sin versus the role of the new creation now in children of God. All who reject eternal security are fundementallly in deni.al or ignorance of this basic fact

At the risk of putting words in someone else's mouth

I did post this reply - and he did agree with it.

=============================

God's entire universe is based on His system of free will.

The "whole point " of not destroying Satan and his angels the moment they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

The "whole point" of not destroying Adam and Eve just as soon as they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

We have 6000 years of sin - to "inform" the universe about the sin experiment and to see how utterly sin fails to provide the fruits of the Spirit.

In a free will system decisions are ensured via compelling evidence.

In a Calvinist robot no-free will model - there is no need at all for evience or proof or Job-style experiment when God is directly challenged as in the book of Job. And no need to allow Satan to sin in the first place because it goes directly back to a defective maker that made that robot sin. When FORD produces a defective truck --- nobody blames the truck.

But even so - even if you do allow the robot-Satan to sin - then wiping him out immediately and sparing every other robot the pain of his continued program of deception is the only logical path.

Conversely - obliterating free will after the 2nd coming - (because presumably this is the only way a Calvinist can think of to ensure a peaceful eternity) would simply be to admit defeat and that the entire program - 6000 years of sin and suffering and the death of Christ Himself - was all a pointless exercise when instant obliteration of Sin and Satan at the start would have done the job just fine for the other robots.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I meant to say, "If you would give a straight answer I would not put words in your mouth."

No, you had it right the first time.

 

[The Biblicist]

At the risk of putting words in someone else's mouth

I did post this reply - and he did agree with it.

=============================

God's entire universe is based on His system of free will.

The "whole point " of not destroying Satan and his angels the moment they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

The "whole point" of not destroying Adam and Eve just as soon as they sinned - was a universe where free will is foundational.

We have 6000 years of sin - to "inform" the universe about the sin experiment and to see how utterly sin fails to provide the fruits of the Spirit.

In a free will system decisions are ensured via compelling evidence.

In a Calvinist robot no-free will model - there is no need at all for evience or proof or Job-style experiment when God is directly challenged as in the book of Job. And no need to allow Satan to sin in the first place because it goes directly back to a defective maker that made that robot sin. When FORD produces a defective truck --- nobody blames the truck.

But even so - even if you do allow the robot-Satan to sin - then wiping him out immediately and sparing every other robot the pain of his continued program of deception is the only logical path.

Conversely - obliterating free will after the 2nd coming - (because presumably this is the only way a Calvinist can think of to ensure a peaceful eternity) would simply be to admit defeat and that the entire program - 6000 years of sin and suffering and the death of Christ Himself - was all a pointless exercise when instant obliteration of Sin and Satan at the start would have done the job just fine for the other robots.

in Christ,

Bob

The issue is not "free" will but the area of freedom. God does not have such a "free" will as you define the area of freedom. God cannot choose to sin simply because it is outside the area of his freedom. His own nature is the area of his freedom. He can choose anything within the area of his moral nature.

Likewise, the "law" of indwelling sin cannot choose to love God or submit to God's will - impossible. It can NEVER choose to please God as that is outside its area of its moral freedom - its moral nature! - Rom. 8:7-8.

Likewise, the inward NEW MAN is created in "true holiness and righteousness" or like the NATURE OF GOD - because it is BORN OF GOD and it can NEVER choose to sin - 1 Jn. 3:9 simply because sin is outside its area of freedom. It always delights in the law of God (Rom. 7:22) and never delights in sin.

 

[BobRyan]

The issue is not "free" will but the area of freedom. God does not have such a "free" will as you define the area of freedom. ...

Likewise, the "law" of indwelling sin cannot choose to love God or submit to God's will - impossible. It can NEVER choose to please God as that is outside its area of its moral freedom - its moral nature! - Rom. 8:7-8.

Likewise, the inward NEW MAN is created in "true holiness and righteousness" or like the NATURE OF GOD - because it is BORN OF GOD and it can NEVER choose to sin - 1 Jn. 3:9 simply because sin is outside its area of freedom. It always delights in the law of God (Rom. 7:22) and never delights in sin.

The new Nature CAN choose sin even though it is created to be in harmony with God - as Lucifer now fallen Satan demonstrates, as 1/3 of the Angels now fallen demons demonstrate - as Adam and Eve demonstrate.

It is too late to speculate that such choices are not available to those with sinless perfect natures - that boat has already sailed.

As for the sinful nature - I agree that man "if left to himself" does not "seek after God" as Paul states in Romans 3.

But Christ said in John 12:32 that ALL are supernaturally drawn to God.

And even by Calvinist standards - the supernatural drawing of God - enables all that depravity disables when it comes to choosing God. (And of course - I am no Calvinist so I am even more willing to grant that point.) As God said to mankind in Genesis 3 "I will put emnity (war) between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" there is an unnatural - a supernatural principle of rebellion against the kingdom of sin and rebellion that is mankind via a supernatural act of God - that enables choice. Because in God's universe - Free Will is the "rule" that He sovereignly chose to establish.

In any case you are arguing that a sinless perfect nature cannot (is not able) to choose sin just as though it were God - and history does not bear out that point of speculation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The new Nature CAN choose sin even though it is created to be in harmony with God - as Lucifer now fallen Satan demonstrates, as 1/3 of the Angels now fallen demons demonstrate - as Adam and Eve demonstrate.

It is too late to speculate that such choices are not available to those with sinless perfect natures - that boat has already sailed.

As for the sinful nature - I agree that man "if left to himself" does not "seek after God" as Paul states in Romans 3.

But Christ said in John 12:32 that ALL are supernaturally drawn to God.

And even by Calvinist standards - the supernatural drawing of God - enables all that depravity disables when it comes to choosing God. (And of course - I am no Calvinist so I am even more willing to grant that point.) As God said to mankind in Genesis 3 "I will put emnity (war) between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" there is an unnatural - a supernatural principle of rebellion against the kingdom of sin and rebellion that is mankind via a supernatural act of God - that enables choice. Because in God's universe - Free Will is the "rule" that He sovereignly chose to establish.

In any case you are arguing that a sinless perfect nature cannot (is not able) to choose sin just as though it were God - and history does not bear out that point of speculation.

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you for an excellent and accurate post full of spiritual truth!

The reason that people hold such positions as you and I are arguing against here is that instead of following the true scriptural teachings, they are following Augustinian presuppositions, teachings which have poisoned most of Western Christianity. They start out with an erroneous view of the nature of God and man, and other erroneous views follow from that. They only think they are following scripture when in actuality they are following the Augustinian view of God and man. That's all they've been taught, and thus that's all they know. I grew up under that cloud which obscured the true nature of God, and it took me a long time to escape it. When I came to see the true scriptural nature of God, those clouds were burned away, and the light of day broke through.

 

[Amy.G]

The new Nature CAN choose sin even though it is created to be in harmony with God - as Lucifer now fallen Satan demonstrates, as 1/3 of the Angels now fallen demons demonstrate - as Adam and Eve demonstrate.

Even in the eternal state you will fear that you can be separated from God. How sad.

And totally unbiblical.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Even in the eternal state you will fear that you can be separated from God. How sad.

And totally unbiblical.

Really? Now I do not pretend, unlike some here, to know what our state in heaven will be like. However, how did Lucifer fall from heaven? Did he or did he not have the freedom and ability to rebel?

Tell me, just when is it that you propose that humans lose that ability to choose? All through the Bible the teaching is that humans have the freedom to accept or reject God. No one is compelled to accept Him or forbidden to do so.

You and others need to get free of Augustinian-influenced teachings if you want to see and understand God's nature.

 

[evangelist-7]

When I came to see the true scriptural nature of God,
those clouds were burned away, and the light of day broke through.

Yes, but that severe sunburn of yours is greatly hindering your ability to think straight on some issues.
C'mon into the shade, cool down ... and maybe the Lord will be able to get through to you.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

The new Nature CAN choose sin even though it is created to be in harmony with God - as Lucifer now fallen Satan demonstrates, as 1/3 of the Angels now fallen demons demonstrate - as Adam and Eve demonstrate.

It is too late to speculate that such choices are not available to those with sinless perfect natures - that boat has already sailed.

As for the sinful nature - I agree that man "if left to himself" does not "seek after God" as Paul states in Romans 3.

But Christ said in John 12:32 that ALL are supernaturally drawn to God.

And even by Calvinist standards - the supernatural drawing of God - enables all that depravity disables when it comes to choosing God. (And of course - I am no Calvinist so I am even more willing to grant that point.) As God said to mankind in Genesis 3 "I will put emnity (war) between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" there is an unnatural - a supernatural principle of rebellion against the kingdom of sin and rebellion that is mankind via a supernatural act of God - that enables choice. Because in God's universe - Free Will is the "rule" that He sovereignly chose to establish.

In any case you are arguing that a sinless perfect nature cannot (is not able) to choose sin just as though it were God - and history does not bear out that point of speculation.

in Christ,

Bob

You are confusing the prefallen nature with a reborn nature - the two are not one and the same. We are not restored to a prefallen state. We actually partake of God's moral nature, which cannot sin (1 Jn. 3:9). You may demonstrate that human and angelic nature can sin but you must prove that God's nature can sin. We do not have God's nature in the sense of deity, but we do have the same nature in the sense of moral immutability.

 

[Amy.G]

Really? Now I do not pretend, unlike some here, to know what our state in heaven will be like. However, how did Lucifer fall from heaven? Did he or did he not have the freedom and ability to rebel?

Tell me, just when is it that you propose that humans lose that ability to choose? All through the Bible the teaching is that humans have the freedom to accept or reject God. No one is compelled to accept Him or forbidden to do so.

You and others need to get free of Augustinian-influenced teachings if you want to see and understand God's nature.

So you are not really saved. You hope that God will save you and take your spirit to heaven, but even there you may use your free will and rebel against Him and then you will end up in hell. Once in hell, can you again use your free will to get out?

I know nothing of Augustine. I read the Bible. And when Jesus said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out", I believe Him.

 

[Amy.G]

We actually partake of God's moral nature, which cannot sin (1 Jn. 3:9).

According to Bob and T.H. God doesn't have free will!

A will can't be free unless it has the choice to sin, right?

 

[The Biblicist]

According to Bob and T.H. God doesn't have free will!

A will can't be free unless it has the choice to sin, right?

Exactly! Keep up the good fight Amy. The nature of my circumstances will take me away from this forum for long periods of time.

 

[BobRyan]

So you are not really saved. You hope that God will save you and take your spirit to heaven, but even there you may use your free will and rebel against Him and then you will end up in hell.

According to certain forms of Calvinism - a Calvinist cannot know that he is in fact saved -- UNTIL he sees that 20 years from today he will indeed persevere firm until the end.

An Arminian can know that they are saved today - but cannot know that they will persevere 20 years from today. A 5 point Calvinist cannot even know that.

In the Calvinist model -- God is not "able" to ensure salvation in heaven without pything-the-brain-of-the-frog so to speak and revoking free will. The problem for Calvinists is that it is hard for them to be God and so unnable to figure out how God can do what He says He can do - they invoke their own limited solution for eternal security - revoking God's sovereignly ordained system of "whosoever will".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thomas Helwys]

So you are not really saved. You hope that God will save you and take your spirit to heaven, but even there you may use your free will and rebel against Him and then you will end up in hell. Once in hell, can you again use your free will to get out?

I know nothing of Augustine. I read the Bible. And when Jesus said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out", I believe Him.

Well that's your interpretation of it, and so be it.

I don't believe Jesus will cast anyone out, either. I believe anyone can leave of their own accord. Jesus doesn't cast out, but He doesn't compel or hold anyone by force, either. I don't see why you and others can't get that. On second thought, I do: You are bound up by determinism and a wrong view of God's nature. And whether you know it or realize it or not, it is because you have been influenced by Augustinian and Calvinist teaching, which have been taught to you from childhood if you grew up in any Baptist church other than General and Free Will Baptists.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

According to Bob and T.H. God doesn't have free will!

A will can't be free unless it has the choice to sin, right?

What a gross misrepresentation of my belief and quite ridiculous on your part.

God cannot sin because He is God; it is inherently impossible for Him to sin because of His nature. Just like it is inherently impossible not to grant humans and angels free will and the ability to choose because that is also part of His nature or essence. For God to ever take away that freedom is not possible, so your belief that He takes it way after conversion is patently false. The Bible confirms that, and thus OSAS is false doctrine.

 

[evangelist-7]

I don't believe Jesus will cast anyone out ... (but) I believe anyone can leave of their own accord.
Jesus doesn't cast out, but He doesn't compel or hold anyone by force, either.

We can repeat this fact (which is taught in Scripture) forever,
but many Christians will continue to refuse to see it and/or believe it.

Ditto for some other spiritual truths.
.

 

[Alive in Christ]

OSAS is one of the most harmful doctrines ever conceived by the human mind, as are all the other pints of Calvinism. I will oppose them with every fiber of my being. They give a totally false view of the nature of God.

Why bring Calvinism into it?

Millions of non cals..such as myself.. hold to the God given,scriptural truth known as "eternal security"

 

[Amy.G]

God cannot sin because He is God; it is inherently impossible for Him to sin because of His nature. Just like it is inherently impossible not to grant humans and angels free will and the ability to choose because that is also part of His nature or essence. For God to ever take away that freedom is not possible, so your belief that He takes it way after conversion is patently false. The Bible confirms that, and thus OSAS is false doctrine.

I never said that God takes anything away did I?

It's not that God takes away free will, it's that He changes our will. Our spirit is reborn. It is born from above and as such is perfect and sinless and cannot sin.

It is not "taking away" free will, it is cutting away the dead sinful spirit, a spiritual circumcision.

A born again saint does not have the same "will" as he did as an unbeliever who is spiritually dead. He has the same will as God.

 

[preacher4truth]

OSAS is one of the most harmful doctrines ever conceived by the human mind, as are all the other pints of Calvinism. I will oppose them with every fiber of my being. They give a totally false view of the nature of God.

Jesus taught it: John 6:39, John 10:28.

Take it up with Him.