Specific threats to Christians about losing eternal life!

[Steadfast Fred]

Steady Freddie ... many hearty congratulations!
But some of us feel sorry for you.
.

Your pity is unjustified.

 

[evangelist-7]

How can a saved person choose not to believe
when the Holy Spirit is residing inside him and guiding him into all truth?
If a person were able to stop believing, again it would prove God to be a liar,
for He said the Comforter would guide us into all truth.

You are talking about the ideal condition when the BAC is trying to be as obedient as you are.
But ...
Some BACs give up trying to be obedient to the Holy Spirit's convictions.
Some BACs have a change of heart ... and decide they prefer the life of sin.
How many more scenarios would you like to hear about?

I know, OSASers just say, "Dey never was saved in da foist place!"

Thou might just as well say, "The Holy Spirit turns real BACs into robots!"
.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Interesting....

I find it both revealing and interesting how all you "you can lose it" guys have totally ignored the only post in this thread that actually makes any balanced scriptural sense...the one on pg.6 by bro. Biblicist. I guess some are just too dedicated to riding their pet hobby horses. Real Biblical truth is actually hard to refute so if one is going to pursue a "pet" doctrine I guess it is best to ignore a sound one. Some just don't wish to be confused by the truth. Sad....but true.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You are talking about the ideal condition when the BAC is trying to be as obedient as you are.
But ...
Some BACs give up trying to be obedient to the Holy Spirit's convictions.
Some BACs have a change of heart ... and decide they prefer the life of sin.
How many more scenarios would you like to hear about?

I know, OSASers just say, "Dey never was saved in da foist place!"

Thou might just as well say, "The Holy Spirit turns real BACs into robots!"
.

I echo the words of John...

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

No doubt that the saved will continue to be saved. They are sealed until the day of redemption of the purchased possession.

We love Him, because He first loved us.

We can never stop loving Him, because we have His Spirit and His Word that reminds us daily of His great love wherewith He loved us. We have His Holy Spirit that assures us of His presence in our daily walk... even in times of trial. We can never stop believing in Him because of His work of Salvation that He has performed in our lives.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm doing a complete QUOTE of this post because EVERYBODY needs to read and re-read it until they GET IT!! The one thing that none of our SDA, Charismaniac friends seem to get is that the New Birth is a miraculous event that changes everything. Salvation is totally OF THE LORD. The posters that have been attacking the doctrine of the security of the believer simply have NO real understanding of the doctrines of regeneration, justification, salvation and the new birth or the nature of God Himself. The fact is, things DO CHANGE within the believer at salvation. Man's old adamic nature is NOT eradicated or "dead". It is very much alive after one is saved and THEN the real war begins and will continue until we see Christ. The miracle of the New Birth is that God imparts to us a new nature made after His likeness but it comes to us in baby-form and He likens us to spiritual babes that must grow into full spiritual maturity. For some that growth process is fairly rapid. For some it is painfully slow. For ALL it takes place at differing speeds and under differing conditions.....but God Himself said He would NEVER leave us nor forsake us. If you could do ANYTHING to either save yourself OR keep yourself saved then the "salvation" YOU have is of YOU....and NOT "of the Lord". If there doesn't exist within you a "defacto" state of war between your "old man" and your "new man" then my advice is....CHECK UP.raying:

In any case...Thank You Bro.Biblicist for an excellent post. After reading EVERY post in this thread it was a blessing to get past all of the false doctrine and back and forth hurling of insults to finally get to and read a sound exposition of the truth. I hope everybody will sincerely pause, read, and consider your sound words. I'll save your posted link to my fav's list for future reference. Thank You!

Bro.Greg:saint:

Your welcome! However, these posters have a dogma to defend, and there is little hope apart from the intervening grace of God they will leave their opinions.

 

[Zenas]

Scripture is not clear on this matter. Or perhaps I should say that scripture is contradictory on the matter. If scripture gave us a clear message we would not be having this debate because no Christian wants to go against scripture. In order to advance either position, you have to discount, ignore or contort certain passages. So it really boils down to which tradition you are going to follow, the OSAS tradition or the "fall from grace" tradition.

For me, I believe we have free will and can exclude the Holy Spirit any time we ask Him to leave us. I also believe that a sizeable number of people do just that. So I guess that says what side of the debate I am on.

 

[evangelist-7]

For me, I believe we have free will and can exclude the Holy Spirit any time we ask Him to leave us. I also believe that a sizeable number of people do just that. So I guess that says what side of the debate I am on.

I admire you for speaking up.

The NT is an incredibly delightful mixture, i.e. mish-mash, of:
• blessings
• explanations
• exhortations
• warnings that the blessings are conditional

This is a very serious matter, so for your momentary comic relief, I'll close with:
Cessationism is from Satan

The above link is the only place that addresses all of the many proofs why this is a lie!
Too bad ... I guess it stands.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Scripture is not clear on this matter. Or perhaps I should say that scripture is contradictory on the matter. If scripture gave us a clear message we would not be having this debate because no Christian wants to go against scripture. In order to advance either position, you have to discount, ignore or contort certain passages. So it really boils down to which tradition you are going to follow, the OSAS tradition or the "fall from grace" tradition.

For me, I believe we have free will and can exclude the Holy Spirit any time we ask Him to leave us. I also believe that a sizeable number of people do just that. So I guess that says what side of the debate I am on.

Sure, blame it on God! No, the problem is not scripture but with your interpretations of scripture. None of these texts when properly exegeted deny eternal salvation of God's elect.

 

[Zenas]

Sure, blame it on God! No, the problem is not scripture but with your interpretations of scripture. None of these texts when properly exegeted deny eternal salvation of God's elect.

Indeed, but only if you really believe your exegesis is proper. You know your scripture very well, and I admire that, but you don't know it any better than the best scholars in the other camp who would say they are right and you are wrong. No matter what you may say about this, you are coming from a tradition that believes in OSAS (or whatever other name you want to give it) and that has to color your way of looking at things.

So, Biblicist, the bottom line is why should I regard your interpretation as the right interpretation?

 

[evangelist-7]

There are multitudes of warning passages,
which do NOT specifically mention losing eternal life.

Here we read about losing the crown of life …

1 Cor 9:
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize?
Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things.
Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others,
I myself should become disqualified.

1 Peter 5:
1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness
of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers,
not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears,
you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

James 1:
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved,
he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”;
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin;
and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
no sinning >> the crown of life ...... sinning >> spiritual death

Rev 2:
10 Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”
If you are an overcomer, and persevere until the end, you receive the crown of life.
Otherwise, you receive spiritual death.

The only way anyone is able to do these things is with the help of the precious Holy Spirit.

Welcome to the real world of Christianity.
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Indeed, but only if you really believe your exegesis is proper. You know your scripture very well, and I admire that, but you don't know it any better than the best scholars in the other camp who would say they are right and you are wrong. No matter what you may say about this, you are coming from a tradition that believes in OSAS (or whatever other name you want to give it) and that has to color your way of looking at things.

So, Biblicist, the bottom line is why should I regard your interpretation as the right interpretation?

1. There are no scriptures that explicity state that a true born again child of God can be unborn - no, not one.

2. There are scriptures that teach there are false professing Christians - Mt. 13 "tares" -one "good" soil out of four, etc. Indeed, look at Mormons, JW's, etc. and you can clearly see there are "good" but false professors preaching another gospel. This should be obvious.

3. Salvation is not one dimensional but is multi-dimensionals because it is designed for the salvation of the WHOLE person who is multi-dimensional. There is a past tense dimension, a future tense dimension, a present tense dimension that deal with different aspects of human nature. This should be obvious even if you are a dichotomist as you have an immaterial and material aspect of human nature. The future tense refres to the material aspect. However, the present tenise is much more complex and distinct than either. Those who oppose OSAS confuse these different aspects. Confuses the cause and effect relationships. Confuse the immediate application and future goals of each. Total confusion! It is at this precise point that multitudes of Scriptures are misapplied, confused and misinterpreted as they take present tense and apply it to future or past tense or vice versa.

4. One misapplication/misinterpretation leads to other misintepretations that distort the whole area of savlation and the nature of man.

5. I recommend you read my little booklet "What Is Man?" for a clear understanding of these distinctions -

http://www.victorybaptistchurchchehalis.com/uploads/What_is_Man.pdf

 

[preacher4truth]

Jesus said He would lose none. -- John 6:39. The contradictory theologies to this are man made fallacies.

I expect some 'billy goat religion' to ensue: 'But, but, but...'

'Nuff said.

 

[BobRyan]

There are multitudes of warning passages,
which do NOT specifically mention losing eternal life.

Here we read about losing the crown of life …

1 Cor 9:
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize?
Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things.
Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others,
I myself should become disqualified .

.

Those are good texts - and 1Cor 9 makes the case well

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached (the Gospel) to others,
I myself should become disqualified (from it).

But you must also quote it in context with the all-important vs 23.

23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should become disqualified (from it).


Paul preached the Gospel - and he desire was to be a "partaker of it WITH you" and his fear was that w/o that discipline and focus - he might be "disqualified" from that very Gospel that he was preaching.


Paul also states this idea of striving to ensure salvation - in his letter to Timothy.


1 Tim 4


13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


These texts leave no room for a false-gospel of "peace and safety" - instead they point to real peace and safety.

God's blessings.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

At Least....

Well Bro.Biblicist....at least they aren't ignoring you now:tongue3:.


Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[evangelist-7]

I recommend you read my little booklet "What Is Man?" for a clear understanding of these distinctions -
http://www.victorybaptistchurchchehalis.com/uploads/What_is_Man.pdf

Sorry, but I have to tell you ...

If a Bible teacher has any letters after his name, chances are extremely high
that he/she is man-taught-and-led instead of Spirit-taught-and-led.

Most Christian seminaries, universities, etc. have a terrible reputation for producing unspiritual clones.
2 Cor 3:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves,
but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

My wife and I spent 5 years with a pastor and his wife,
who between them, had all 9 spiritual power gifts.
They thought Christian seminaries, etc. were a huge joke.

It's no wonder that you and I are many miles apart.

Time to renounce all of that stuff ... Time to get on your knees and learn from the Holy Spirit.
That's what Paul did ... 17 years in the desert with the Lord Himself, learning what he had to learn.

Is this a tough word or no?
.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those are good texts - and 1Cor 9 makes the case well

27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached (the Gospel) to others,
I myself should become disqualified (from it).

But you must also quote it in context with the all-important vs 23.

23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached (the gospel) to others, I myself should become disqualified (from it).


Paul preached the Gospel - and he desire was to be a "partaker of it WITH you" and his fear was that w/o that discipline and focus - he might be "disqualified" from that very Gospel that he was preaching.

He was already a partaker of the gospel! He was talking about his unique calling given to him AFTER BEING SAVED which had its own reward if faithful to that calling. He had been called to preach the gospel. Not all believers are called to preach the gospel. Christians are gifted differently for different callings, but in each case there is reward for faithfulness to their own specific calling. This calling is not their salvation. However, you dont' care about the context, you just care about defending your false gospel of justification by works.

Paul also states this idea of striving to ensure salvation - in his letter to Timothy.


1 Tim 4


13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. 15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. 16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


These texts leave no room for a false-gospel of "
peace and safety" - instead they point to real peace and safety.

Notice he is not speaking of initial gospel salvation but rather those "things" and "teaching" that has to do with the manner of how he lives or his "progess." Note the words "progress in them" or practicing the teachings that deal with Christian living. This has nothing to do with his regeneration or glorification but with the redemption of the "time" between regeneration and glorification. This is what Paul describes in Ephesians 5:16 or "redeeming the time" through submission to the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18). He is referring to the salvation of the "life" in the form of "good works" which will be manifested by "rewards" (1 Cor. 3:15-16).

You don't understand that salvation is designed for the WHOLE person and a human being is not simply a one-dimensional being. There is a past, present and future tense for the salvation of each dimension of human nature. There is a different consequence of the salvation of each.

In regard to the salvation of the "soul/life" it can be lost and saved DAILY and what aspect is redeemed or the "time" redeemed has its consequence in "reward" in heaven not entrance into heaven.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I'm glad God loves me enough to give me the freedom to choose to love Him freely and the freedom to stay loyal to Him, or to reject Him. Love and loyalty are not love and loyalty when their is no choice involved.

So, all of you determinists can disparage me and others who believe like me all you want. It doesn't say much for your spiritual maturity, however.

And one thing I can always fall back on: The original English Baptists believed you could forfeit your salvation. The Particulars, who came later, were the interlopers.

There are just as many scriptures and even more that support the free will position than do the determinist position, and they cannot be explained away no matter how hard you try. But really this subject has been talked to death, and I hope and will try to make this my last post on it.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I love Him because He first loved me.

I believe Him because I have His Spirit and His Word that strengthen my faith daily.

I could never reject Him because I know in my heart His great love for me.

One who can reject the Lord is one who was never truly convinced of who the Lord is and what He did for Him.

 

[Amy.G]

I'm glad God loves me enough to give me the freedom to choose to love Him freely and the freedom to stay loyal to Him, or to reject Him. Love and loyalty are not love and loyalty when their is no choice involved.

Will you still have this choice to reject Him after you enter into eternal life?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Incredible!!!

Sorry, but I have to tell you ...

If a Bible teacher has any letters after his name, chances are extremely high
that he/she is man-taught-and-led instead of Spirit-taught-and-led.

Most Christian seminaries, universities, etc. have a terrible reputation for producing unspiritual clones.
2 Cor 3:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves,
but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

My wife and I spent 5 years with a pastor and his wife,
who between them, had all 9 spiritual power gifts.
They thought Christian seminaries, etc. were a huge joke.

It's no wonder that you and I are many miles apart.

Time to renounce all of that stuff ... Time to get on your knees and learn from the Holy Spirit.
That's what Paul did ... 17 years in the desert with the Lord Himself, learning what he had to learn.

Is this a tough word or no?
.

While I'm no huge fan of modern academia and particularly not those who hold "honorary" degrees and think that putting the title "Dr." in front of their name somehow makes them more "credible".....OR somehow superior to anybody else......I do think that some respect is due to people who have "paid their dues" and sacrificed to study and prepare themselves for full time Christian ministry or service or any other worthy vocation that they believe God has led them into. Your post does nothing but potentially "throw them ALL under the bus". That is terribly unwise. You have demonstrated a classic example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater!" Incredible.....! Did you even READ the brothers book before you rejected it out of hand? Probably not. Basically, what you are saying is that an educated man can't possibly be spiritual or teach sound spiritual truth....THAT IS LUDICROUS!!:BangHead:

Bro.Greg:saint: