Spiritual Death

[JonC]

Uh no sorry it is not simply second death. I think you need to study what spiritual death actually is.

You don't need to apologize, Rev. We can learn from each other.

I believe that the second death is the lake of fire. I believe this because Revelation 20 states "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire" and this is repeated in 21 with "but for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


Maybe you are talking about another "second death"? Which verse are you thinking of?

Keeping in mind that I take Scripture more seriously than I do people's traditions, I am going to ask you. Since you are a Reverend and I take it pastor a church I have no doubt you are in Scripture on a daily basis.

What verse are you looking towards when you explain to your congregation how spiritually-alive people experience a spiritual-death? If you have a link to a time you are teaching this to your congregation I would be very interested.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is existent--but no communion/union


No, it means they are not spiritually alive--no communion/fellowship with Christ.

You whole theory collapses then. You are arguing from inference. Every scripture that teaches spiritual life is by union with Christ is in a context where the application is spiritual dead. Hence, you have not scripture that denies that unfallen man did not have a life directly imparted by God - a sinless life - mutable but sinless thus without need for rebirth. No death, as that death entered due to his sin. If he remained sinless no death.

 

[JonShaff]

Hence, you have not scripture that denies that unfallen man did not have a life directly imparted by God - a sinless life - mutable but sinless thus without need for rebirth.

This has a lot going on here lol!!!

We need to be "born again" because everyone is born physically, but we need to be "Born Spiritually". Christ is the ONLY ONE who was born both Physically and Spiritually (He IS LIFE--GOD).

 

[MB]

I can get that. Perhaps the problem, then, is when people build doctrine on illustration.

Some have used the illustration of those the lost as being spiritually dead (un-spiritually alive ) to build doctrine. They say the lost are an useless as a "corpse" and God arrives in the S.S. Salvation row - row - rowing his boat down the river Styx. The lost can't get in the boat because they are dead and corpses can't swim. So God must pull the corpse out of the water. or something along those lines - point is they build doctrine on illustration.

Agreed you put it eloquently. Scripture isn't meant to be taken so lightly. I know Paul was so intelligent in his explanations people do have a hard time understanding if they don't slow down and take a good look at what is being said in scripture. There is no harm meant to make sure a pastor is preaching it according to scripture either. I wouldn't embarrass a pastor over it, but I would question him on it privately. That is in away that didn't place him on the defensive.
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

So both Jons confess that a spiritual condition defined as "dead" is biblical. The body is not "dead" in this sense is obvious from Eph. 2:1-3. One Jon admits it has its cause and grounds in the sin of Adam and is part and parcel with "death" that entered the world at that point and time and thus we received it because it was "passed" down to us and thus from conception we are found in a spiritual state of death/deadness.

This is an admission that prior to the sin of Adam, no such state of death existed. Thus, here is one man who obviously must have experienced spiritual death or else we could not be born in that condition.

Hence, this is admission that his spirit was not "dead" but still shared the LIFE of God imparted to him in his creation and would have never experienced death in any sense as long as he did not sin.

Now, was Adam born again after he sinned or did he remain outside of Christ and in hell today? If he was "born again" did he not transition from a spiritual dead state to state of union with Christ?

 

[The Biblicist]

This has a lot going on here lol!!!

We need to be "born again" because everyone is born physically, but we need to be "Born Spiritually". Christ is the ONLY ONE who was born both Physically and Spiritually (He IS LIFE--GOD).

Still have not dealt with my post. Do you have any scripture that the kind of life directly imparted to Adam from God's own being was anything less than the LIFE OF GOD and he would never have died unless he sinned, never needed union with Christ because he was already in union with God's life directly infused into him?

What would be God's point to tell him he would die if he ate IF he was going to die anyway? He had the ENDLESS LIFE OF GOD in him mutably conditioned on obedience.

 

[JonC]

So both Jons confess that a spiritual condition defined as "dead" is biblical. The body is not "dead" in this sense is obvious from Eph. 2:1-3. One Jon admits it has its cause and grounds in the sin of Adam and is part and parcel with "death" that entered the world at that point and time and thus we received it because it was "passed" down to us and thus from conception we are found in a spiritual state of death/deadness.

This is an admission that prior to the sin of Adam, no such state of death existed. Thus, here is one man who obviously must have experienced spiritual death or else we could not be born in that condition.

Hence, this is admission that his spirit was not "dead" but still shared the LIFE of God imparted to him in his creation and would have never experienced death in any sense as long as he did not sin.

Now, was Adam born again after he sinned or did he remain outside of Christ and in hell today? If he was "born again" did he not transition from a spiritual dead state to state of union with Christ?

The Tale of Two Jons??? Resorting to bathroom humor, huh....

 

[The Biblicist]

The Tale of Two Jons??? Resorting to bathroom humor, huh....

It crossed my mind but I knew better than to say it

 

[JonShaff]

Still have not dealt with my post. Do you have any scripture that the kind of life directly imparted to Adam from God's own being was anything less than the LIFE OF GOD and he would never have died unless he sinned, never needed union with Christ because he was already in union with God's life directly infused into him?

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[JonC]

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

That should settle it.

 

[percho]

Still have not dealt with my post. Do you have any scripture that the kind of life directly imparted to Adam from God's own being was anything less than the LIFE OF GOD and he would never have died unless he sinned, never needed union with Christ because he was already in union with God's life directly infused into him?

What would be God's point to tell him he would die if he ate IF he was going to die anyway? He had the ENDLESS LIFE OF GOD in him mutably conditioned on obedience.

What did the word die mean to Adam?

Some many years after the sin of Adam.

all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit -- of all that is in the dry land -- have died. Gen 7:22

What was that, breath of living spirit, doing in all those spiritually dead people?

 

[The Biblicist]

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Misuse of texts. Notice the difference is between "soul" and "spiritual" not between "dead" and "spiritual. or between "dead" and "life" or between "visible" and "invisible."

Second, this is about the difference between the physical bodies of Adam OF BOTH LOST AND SAVED and the resurrected body of Christ. The adamic man is "soul" centered or driven whereas the glorified body is "spirit" driven.

This text has NOTHING to do with our discussion.

 

[JonShaff]

Misuse of texts.

This text has NOTHING to do with our discussion.

The adamic man is "soul" centered or driven whereas the glorified body is "spirit" driven.

I think we agree here

 

[The Biblicist]

That should settle it.

You have to be kidding?? Don't you fellas believe in context as a primary factor for interpreting scripture????

You have to read into the text what is not there. It is a contrast between "soul" and "spiritual" and a contrast between a physical NATURAL body and a PHYSICAL resurrected body. The natural body is soul centered, meaning the pre-resurrected body of both saved and lost is "soul" centered as the soul is the administrative center. Even saved people in non-glorified bodies are attempting to "put on" the new man, and dealing with all the issues relating to death. The glorified PHYSICAL body is "spiritual" or "spirit" centered and free from all sin consequences.

This has NOTHING to do with our discussions.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think we agree here

Jon just quoted the text ASSUMING it defended his view but neither jon jon gave any application to show why you quoted it.

 

[JonShaff]

For there record, while i know we are dealing with realities concerning Adam...the focal point is that Adam was never meant to do what only Christ could do--birth the New and Eternal Creation. It is all about King Jesus and the Splendor of His Glory! Adam did not "Fail", he was part of the Plan to bring Many sons and daughters to God through THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. He is LIFE, He is ETERNAL, He is the TRUE SON who has and brings Eternal Fellowship with the Father. Let us not get too distracted as to miss the focus of any true and healthy theology.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think we agree here

Where is the words "dead" or "life" or "union" or "death" or anything that relates to our discussion? Where?

The problem with this text is that the "soul" body is what YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW as a regenerated person so what use it that reality for this discussion since both SAVED and LOST have the "soul" body of Adam right now?

 

[The Biblicist]

For there record, while i know we are dealing with realities concerning Adam...the focal point is that Adam was never meant to do what only Christ could do--birth the New and Eternal Creation. It is all about King Jesus and the Splendor of His Glory! Adam did not "Fail", he was part of the Plan to bring Many sons and daughters to God through THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. He is LIFE, He is ETERNAL, He is the TRUE SON who has and brings Eternal Fellowship with the Father. Let us not get too distracted as to miss the focus of any true and healthy theology.

Nobody is arguing to the contrary of anything stated above - pure straw man!

 

[JonShaff]

Jon just quoted the text ASSUMING it defended his view but neither jon jon gave any application to show why you quoted it.

I will follow up shortly, maybe tonight? Maybe tomorrow.

Point being--Adam's PERSON and BEING was never able to be a LIFE GIVING entity. Only CHRIST. That IS in the Text and I will show it later.

 

[JonShaff]

Nobody is arguing to the contrary of anything stated above - pure straw man!

I am not making an argument here, i am just making sure we are clear on what i am REALLY focused on.