"Spiritual Formation"

[FlyForFun]

The contemplative prayer movement does not have a monopoly on its verbage or usage. What often happens is we hear that a church is "emergent" so we automatically condemn it based on the word alone. My church is emergent, but not unbiblical in the slightest.

If it's Bible based then why does it need to be "emergent"?

Emergents love to hide behind slippery non-language (since language is suspect anyway). But the dirty little secret is that the emergents have it figured out, and those old fuddy-duddies aren't quite with it yet.

Consider me unimpressed.

 

[Tom Butler]

The contemplative prayer movement does not have a monopoly on its verbage or usage. What often happens is we hear that a church is "emergent" so we automatically condemn it based on the word alone. My church is emergent, but not unbiblical in the slightest.

Maybe some definitions are in order here.

Define "emergent."

Define "contemplative prayer."

This, so we won't be talking past each other.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The problem is with the words for "meditation" and "contemplation." People mean different things by them. Eastern meditation is nothing like biblical meditation. The Hebrew word translated as meditation, as I understand it from research and from others who know Hebrew, means to ponder, reflect, understand, and sometimes to memorize God's word.

But it's the Eastern form of meditation (without identifying it as such) that has infiltrated our culture and is also being identified as Biblical meditation. This is partly the result of Thomas Merton (who died in '68), Thomas Keating, Basil Pennington, Richard Foster, and others.

Good stuff Marcia. People need to understand that this deception is..well, deception. And it is done in part through mincing words.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I've been following the contemplative movement for a number of years. I cover this in my article (a link is posted to it on this thread). The term usually does not mean actual contemplation but certain breathing patterns that get one into a state where one is not thinking. In fact, the proponents of this actually say that one should not be thinking. Often, they advocate repeating a word or phrase over and over, sometimes silently or aloud. You are also supposed to go back to this word if your mind wanders. (Of course, repeating a word does not allow one to think; the bible tells us to think when we pray).

Thomas Keating, the arch designer of all this, said that if you think of God, you can't pray.

So while your church may mean actual contemplation by "contemplative prayer," that is definitely not how most of what is called contemplative prayer is being taught or modeled.

Interesting, that when I was studing the Pentecostal movement and churches one of my critisisms was that songs were selected that had repetative verbage as (or Key phrases repeted again and again) with cresendo-ing music causing the "worshipers" to hyperventalate creating a euphoric "feeling" that was often interpreted as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Some would pass out (slain in the spirit) etc...

 

[FlyForFun]

Maybe some definitions are in order here.

Define "emergent."

This is one slippery term .. so since you're in an "emergent" church, I'm all ears.

The best summary I've read is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

Define "contemplative prayer."

From the horse's mouth: http://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/site/PageServer

 

[Johnv]

If it's Bible based then why does it need to be "emergent"?

It's it's bible based, then why does a church need to be Baptist, Charismatic, Revivalist, or a whole other list?

An emergent or emerging church referrs to the post-evangelical and post-charismatic movement. Emphasis is on an individual's personal conversation with God as part of corporate worship. An emergent worship service will dedicate a portion of its worship time to personal prayer and reflection (apart from corporate prayer). To facilitate this, emergent churches often have prayer private stations in addition to traditional row pews. Prayer stations are usually private, often dark, sometimes incorporate candles, incense, and similar devices to calm and clear a person's mind for the purpose of facilitating intimate prayer and contemplation. Use of such devices, while common, is not a prerequisite.

After the designated time of individual prayer and conemplation, it is customary to rejoin the as a corporate congregation and participate in musical worship. The musical worship typically consists of repeating melodic lines similar to gregorian or byzantine music styles, to which is sung a chapter of psalms, proverbs, or similar scriptural verses.

It should also be noted that "emergent" is a somewhat loose term. A christian worship service can be emergent, but that does not necessarily mean that an emergent worship service is christian (in the same was that christian worship charismatic, but that does not mean that charismatic is by definition christian). There are emergent churches that are not eclusively christian, but many are christian doctrinally. My church is emergent and exclusively baptist by definition.

 

[FlyForFun]

To facilitate this, emergent churches often have prayer private stations in addition to traditional row pews. Prayer stations are usually private, often dark, sometimes incorporate candles, incense, and similar devices to calm and clear a person's mind for the purpose of facilitating intimate prayer and contemplation. Use of such devices, while common, is not a prerequisite.

That right there is plum creepy.

Jesus told us we can pray anywhere... no longer would we be limited to one mountain or one place.

I grew up Roman Catholic and left the confessional, the candelabras, the incense, and the mumbo-jumbo far behind to embrace wholeheartedly the Protestant reformation solas.

 

[Revmitchell]

The contemplative prayer movement does not have a monopoly on its verbage or usage. What often happens is we hear that a church is "emergent" so we automatically condemn it based on the word alone. My church is emergent, but not unbiblical in the slightest.

What is common among the emerging church movement is they work to remain vague in all definitions so as to be able to run from criticism at a moments notice. I do not buy it.

 

[FlyForFun]

What is common among the emerging church movement is they work to remain vague in all definitions so as to be able to run from criticism at a moments notice. I do not buy it.

Exactly -- so emergents can deny substitutionary penal atonement, for example, since it doesn't play well to "postmoderns."

 

[Johnv]

What is common among the emerging church movement is they work to remain vague in all definitions so as to be able to run from criticism at a moments notice. I do not buy it.

Any church that does so, whether emergent or not, should rightly be admonished. This is not so as my church, and not so at the emergent churches I've visited (granted, the emergent churches I've visited have been affiliated with a demonination, so they are required to adhere to the denominational standards in matters of faith and practice).

That right there is plum creepy.

But not unscriptural, so worshippers who choose to do this in worship are within the privilege of doing so.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

It's it's bible based, then why does a church need to be Baptist, Charismatic, Revivalist, or a whole other list?

An emergent or emerging church referrs to the post-evangelical and post-charismatic movement. Emphasis is on an individual's personal conversation with God as part of corporate worship. An emergent worship service will dedicate a portion of its worship time to personal prayer and reflection (apart from corporate prayer). To facilitate this, emergent churches often have prayer private stations in addition to traditional row pews. Prayer stations are usually private, often dark, sometimes incorporate candles, incense, and similar devices to calm and clear a person's mind for the purpose of facilitating intimate prayer and contemplation. Use of such devices, while common, is not a prerequisite.

After the designated time of individual prayer and conemplation, it is customary to rejoin the as a corporate congregation and participate in musical worship. The musical worship typically consists of repeating melodic lines similar to gregorian or byzantine music styles, to which is sung a chapter of psalms, proverbs, or similar scriptural verses.

It should also be noted that "emergent" is a somewhat loose term. A christian worship service can be emergent, but that does not necessarily mean that an emergent worship service is christian (in the same was that christian worship charismatic, but that does not mean that charismatic is by definition christian). There are emergent churches that are not eclusively christian, but many are christian doctrinally. My church is emergent and exclusively baptist by definition.

This is cesspool of heresy. It is a road to Rome. How can you possibly hold fidelity to the Word of God and honor to the name of Christ, yet be called by a name, "emergent', that includes "churches" that are not doctrinally Christian?

The more you respond the more you are confirming the concerns true Christians have with this movement. I would venture to say that any real Christian/Bible believer would not stay long in an "emergent" congregation.

Added in:

In fact, if your description is true to the emergent movement, I no longer consider it Christian at all. It is heterodox and I place it on the same ground as Mormonism, JW's, and Roman Catholocism.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is cesspool of heresy. It is a road to Rome. How can you possibly hold fidelity to the Word of God and honor to the name of Christ, yet be called by a name, "emergent', that includes "churches" that are not doctrinally Christian?

The more you respond the more you are confirming the concerns true Christians have with this movement. I would venture to say that any real Christian/Bible believer would not stay long in an "emergent" congregation.

Added in:

In fact, if your description is true to the emergent movement, I no longer consider it Christian at all. It is heterodox and I place it on the same ground as Mormonism, JW's, and Roman Catholocism.

Isn't the quote that all roads lead to Rome? Just a thought :tongue3:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Isn't the quote that all roads lead to Rome? Just a thought :tongue3:

Not the Bible road. lol

 

[Johnv]

This is cesspool of heresy.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: That's the funniest piece of fiction I've heard all day!!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: That's the funniest piece of fiction I've heard all day!!

So laughs the man in the pool. lol

 

[Johnv]

Your problem is that you accuse my church of heresy, but you can't name a single thing my church believes in or practices that is heretical.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It seems to me that there are all sorts of issues with what means what or the definition of terms. I think eastern Meditation is wrong but does that throw out all meditation? Consentrating on the word of God seems a requirement which John's Church claims. There is nothing you John's statement of faith that is wrong. And trying to prove a positive by absence is kind of ridiculous. On the other hand people do take things to the extreme and is this a danger of the emergent church? One of the issues I have in history is the monastic movement started by St. Anthony of Egypt who wanted to just consentrate on the word. No social interactions so that at times he had terrible visions of demons haunting him. This is an extreme and is it what God wants us to do? And is this the direction of the emergent churches? I really don't know since I haven't heard of it save on this site first.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Your problem is that you accuse my church of heresy, but you can't name a single thing my church believes in or practices that is heretical.

Why do I have to name it when you did. Besides we are talking about the movement itself, and not your congregation. You have said in your own words that emergent doesn't have to be doctrinally Christian.

Duh.

 

[Revmitchell]

It seems to me that there are all sorts of issues with what means what or the definition of terms. I think eastern Meditation is wrong but does that throw out all meditation?

No one suggested anything of the sort.

Consentrating on the word of God seems a requirement which John's Church claims.

The problem is this statement is divorced form any context.

There is nothing you John's statement of faith that is wrong.

Which has nothing to do with contemplative prayer

And trying to prove a positive by absence is kind of ridiculous. On the other hand people do take things to the extreme and is this a danger of the emergent church? One of the issues I have in history is the monastic movement started by St. Anthony of Egypt who wanted to just consentrate on the word. No social interactions so that at times he had terrible visions of demons haunting him. This is an extreme and is it what God wants us to do? And is this the direction of the emergent churches? I really don't know since I haven't heard of it save on this site first.

http://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_practices_centering


http://meditation-techniques.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_practice_of_contemplative_prayer

http://www.gotquestions.org/contemplative-prayer.html

 

[Johnv]

Why do I have to name it when you did.

Because you can't list a single thing my church does that is heretical.

You have said in your own words that emergent doesn't have to be doctrinally Christian.

That's not what I said. I said that emergent isn't necessarily exclusively Christian. Your condemning any church that is emergent is like condemning all cristian hymns simply because there are Mormon and Jewish hymns. Giving a benediction or blessing isn't exclusively Christian. Let's ban that. Using the word "God" isn't exclusively Christian. Let's ban that as well.