Spiritual Interpretation....part two

[PrmtvBptst1832]

I agree with you. One should ask, oneself. Has Philippians 3 been fulfilled in Paul.

Three days after Jesus called him on the road to Damascus, did Paul receive the Spirit of adoption, which was the guarantor that Philippians 3 would be fulfilled in him.

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. 21,22

2 Tim 4:1,8 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Is that not all the same appearing, coming, of Jesus? Has Paul received his crown of righteousness?

Again, the appearing and kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ are concomitant events. With all these "appearings" and "comings" that scripture supposedly teaches, it certainly seems that it would have behooved the writers of the New Testament to clarify exactly which appearing or coming they were writing about or did their original audience just take for granted they already knew?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have nothing further to add to this thread. Discussing eschatology with someone whose exegesis affords him or her the luxury of always claiming that scripture means something other than what it says is a waste of time as it is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. May God bless your continued endeavor to search the scriptures and your application of them.


View attachment 1393

I just think that if we are indeed right now under the Messianic Age, where jesus is ruling the nations, that they failed to get His memo, as under Him, will be no Islam,Isis/False religions, sickness/wars/famines etc... Its not just a spiritual rule, but a concrete physical one!

 

[Iconoclast]

I just think that if we are indeed right now under the Messianic Age, where jesus is ruling the nations, that they failed to get His memo, as under Him, will be no Islam,Isis/False religions, sickness/wars/famines etc... Its not just a spiritual rule, but a concrete physical one!

Where do you find this "memo"....in scripture....I do not recall a concrete physical one....what was the concrete physical one in lk17...you like the first century Jew would be wrong looking for the concrete physical memo
..
So you ignore the verses offered as if they do not exist....not an answer

 

[Iconoclast]

An online friend took time to post verses concerning the many days of the Lord in scripture;


Let me Begin
Zephaniah 1:14-18
Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and battle cry Against the fortified cities And the high corner towers.
I will bring distress on men So that they will walk like the blind, Because they have sinned against the LORD; And their blood will be poured out like dust And their flesh like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
Isaiah 13:6-9
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt. They will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
2 Peter 3:10-12
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
Proverbs 11:4
Riches do not profit in the day of wrath, But righteousness delivers from death.
Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the LORD, All you humble of the earth Who have carried out His ordinances; Seek righteousness, seek humility Perhaps you will be hidden In the day of the LORD'S anger
Amos 5:18-20
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Isaiah 24:21-22
So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Seems to me Revelations is the fulfillment of the Dark Portion of the Day of the Lord ending with the Light the coming of Jesus our Lord and Savior.

2 Thessalonians 2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

Isaiah 2:19
Men will go into caves of the rocks And into holes of the ground Before the terror of the LORD And the splendor of His majesty, When He arises to make the earth tremble.
Haggai 2:6
"For thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Once more in a little while, I am going to shake the heavens and the earth, the sea also and the dry land
Isaiah 34:4
And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.

I hopping for an intense study on this subject my brothers so bring forth your scriptures!!
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Zephaniah/2/3
Hebrews 12:26
At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,for our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
Like a Women in Travail.

Mark 13:8
Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, as well as famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
Isaiah 66:7
“The sound of an uproar from the city! A sound from the temple!The sound of the LORD, rendering recompense to his enemies! “Before she was in labor she gave birth;before her pain came upon her she delivered a son. Who has heard such a thing?Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the point of birth and not cause to bring forth?”says the LORD; shall I, who cause to bring forth, shut the womb?”says your God.
Micah 4:9
Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail. Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.http://biblehub.com/mark/13-8.htm
John 16:21
A woman has pain in childbirth because her time has come; but when she brings forth her child, she forgets her anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world.
Isaiah 13:8
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty[c] it will come! Therefore all hands will be feeble,and every human heart will melt.They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them;they will be in anguish like a woman in labor.
Isaiah 21:3
A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer dealeth treacherously, and the spoiler spoileth. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease. Therefore are my loins filled with pain: pangs have taken hold upon me, as the pangs of a woman that travaileth: I was bowed down at the hearing of it; I was dismayed at the seeing of it. My heart staggers; horror has appalled me; the twilight I longed for has been turned for me into trembling.
Isaiah 26:17
O LORD, in distress they sought you;they poured out a whispered prayer when your discipline was upon themLike a pregnant woman who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near to giving birth, so were we because of you, O LORD; We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the LORD is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.
Hosea 13:13,14
O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. Where now is your king, that he may save you in all your cities, and the rulers you demanded, saying," Give me a king and leaders"? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath. The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Jeremiah 30:6http://biblehub.com/revelation/12-2.htm
Ask now, and see,can a man bear a child? Why then do I see every man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor? Why has every face turned pale?Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob;yet he shall be saved out of it.“And it shall come to pass in that day, declares the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off your neck, and I will burst your bonds, and foreigners shall no more make a servant of him.But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.“Then fear not, O Jacob my servant, declares the Lord, nor be dismayed, O Israel; for behold, I will save you from far away,and your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease, and none shall make him afraid.For I am with you to save you, declares the Lord; I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you,but of you I will not make a full end.I will discipline you in just measure,and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Revelation 12:1-5
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
OT
Job 20:28-29,
Isaiah 2 Isaiah 4-5 Isaiah 11 Isaiah 13 Isaiah 19 Isaiah 24 Isaiah 26 Isaiah 27
Jeremiah 30 Jeremiah 46
Ezekiel 30 Ezekiel 37-38
Daniel 2,7,8,11-12
Hosea 3
Joel 2-3
Amos 5 Amos 9
Micah 4-5
Zephaniah
Haggai 2
Malachi 4

NT
Matthew 7 Matthew 24
Mark 13
Luke 12 Luke 21
John 6 John 11-12
Acts 2
Romans 2 Romans 11
1 Corinthians 1
Philippians 1
1 Thessalonians 5
2 Thessalonians 2
2 Timothy 1 & 4
2 Peter 3

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

I never denied the many references to "the day of the LORD." That is not the issue at hand.

 

[Iconoclast]

I never denied the many references to "the day of the LORD." That is not the issue at hand.

I did not suggest you did.I offered it to show that the language God has used all throughout the bible has consistent meaning. The figurative use of these phrases has literal meaning in scripture. When God in Mt 24....writes about the travail of a woman....we all need to pay attention.
When God speaks of the heavens rolling up like a scroll we can learn from scripture the meaning.
Chilton makes a solid case....not many want to deal with the language.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I offered it to show that the language God has used all throughout the bible has consistent meaning. The figurative use of these phrases has literal meaning in scripture. When God in Mt 24....writes about the travail of a woman....we all need to pay attention.
When God speaks of the heavens rolling up like a scroll we can learn from scripture the meaning.

Indeed so. It would be wrong to suppose that every reference to pregnancy and childbirth has to be figurative, but some of them certainly are.
Labour pains, the returning master (Matthew 24:50; Mark 13:33-37) and also the thief in the night, are often used to express the surprise and suddenness of the Lord's coming and the need to watch and be alert..
References to the thief are:
Matthew 24:43
Luke 12:39
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 (see also the reference to the pregnant woman)
2 Peter 3:10
Revelation 3:3
Revelation 16:15

 

[Yeshua1]

I did not suggest you did.I offered it to show that the language God has used all throughout the bible has consistent meaning. The figurative use of these phrases has literal meaning in scripture. When God in Mt 24....writes about the travail of a woman....we all need to pay attention.
When God speaks of the heavens rolling up like a scroll we can learn from scripture the meaning.
Chilton makes a solid case....not many want to deal with the language.

Jesus Second Coming will be in a literal/physical fashion, and the scriptures indicate that at that time all nations shall ackknowledge Him as the King and ruler, are that doing that right now?

 

[Yeshua1]

I never denied the many references to "the day of the LORD." That is not the issue at hand.

the issue is does the bible teach to us the reign of the Messiah would be as it is now, orin a retored paradise state here on Earth? And who has the power to usher that in, the Church or jesus Himself?

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

I did not suggest you did.I offered it to show that the language God has used all throughout the bible has consistent meaning. The figurative use of these phrases has literal meaning in scripture. When God in Mt 24....writes about the travail of a woman....we all need to pay attention.
When God speaks of the heavens rolling up like a scroll we can learn from scripture the meaning.
Chilton makes a solid case....not many want to deal with the language.

In other words, your position is that if scripture uses language one way in one place, then it necessarily means the same thing in another place because the language of scripture is consistent in that sense? There is no doubt that the prophets, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, employed figurative language at times. In The Parousia, Russell wrote:

The expression 'in like manner' must not be pressed too far. There are obvious points of difference between the manner of the Ascension and the Parousia. He departed alone, and without visible splendour; He was to return in glory with His angels. The words, however, imply that His coming was to be visible and personal, which would exclude the interpretation which regards it as providential, or spiritual. The visibility of the Parousia is supported by the uniform teaching of the apostles and the belief of the early Christians: 'Every eye shall see him' (Rev. i. 7).

Take Ac. 1.11 as an example. Is there any indication that this is not speaking of a literal, personal, visible coming? There are differences of interpretation when it comes to what is figurative and what is literal, but when your interpretation can take such a clear and concise statement and claim that it means something completely opposite of what it says...that, my friend, is a problem. Not to mention, it strips the coming of the Lord of its singular significance by making it just one of many "comings," something you have yet to show is taught in the New Testament.

 

[Yeshua1]

In other words, your position is that if scripture uses language one way in one place, then it necessarily means the same thing in another place because the language of scripture is consistent in that sense? There is no doubt that the prophets, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, employed figurative language at times. In The Parousia, Russell wrote:

The expression 'in like manner' must not be pressed too far. There are obvious points of difference between the manner of the Ascension and the Parousia. He departed alone, and without visible splendour; He was to return in glory with His angels. The words, however, imply that His coming was to be visible and personal, which would exclude the interpretation which regards it as providential, or spiritual. The visibility of the Parousia is supported by the uniform teaching of the apostles and the belief of the early Christians: 'Every eye shall see him' (Rev. i. 7).

Take Ac. 1.11 as an example. Is there any indication that this is not speaking of a literal, personal, visible coming? There are differences of interpretation when it comes to what is figurative and what is literal, but when your interpretation can take such a clear and concise statement and claim that it means something completely opposite of what it says...that, my friend, is a problem. Not to mention, it strips the coming of the Lord of its singular significance by making it just one of many "comings," something you have yet to show is taught in the New Testament.

His Second Coming will be God Himself descending, so doubt that it would just affect Israel, or a few!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus Second Coming will be in a literal/physical fashion, and the scriptures indicate that at that time all nations shall ackknowledge Him as the King and ruler, are that doing that right now?

Where in the Bible does it say that?

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Where in the Bible does it say that?

Are you serious?

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. -Dan 7.27

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. -Rev. 12.5

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. -Rev. 15.4

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. -Rev. 19.15

 

[Iconoclast]

the ques

Are you serious?

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. -Dan 7.27

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. -Rev. 12.5

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. -Rev. 15.4

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. -Rev. 19.15

the question was addressed to the other poster, and your verses do not say what he delared anyway.

 

[Iconoclast]

In other words, your position is that if scripture uses language one way in one place, then it necessarily means the same thing in another place because the language of scripture is consistent in that sense?

lets simplify this;.....answer specifically these portions of scripture;
1]isa13;
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Physical? or Spiritual language, literal, or symbolic....what was the literal result?

2]
34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Physical? or Spiritual language, literal, or symbolic....what was the literal result?

3] rev6; are you going to deny the same exact language is used?

2 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Physical? or Spiritual language, literal, or symbolic....what was the literal result?

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[Iconoclast]

That doesn't answer my question.

What answers your question is that no Premillenialist can make sense of the Isa passages of Joel in any consistent way.
The passages are dismissed as if they have no relevance.
Post and Amill writers and theologians see clear connections as Peter did with Joel in Acts 2.
They do not go outside the bible to look for solar eclipses, or silly blood moon ideas.
They recognise the language as God uses the figures over and over and see what were the results historically ....then understand Revelation and mt24, in light of a proper understanding of the language used. They do not fragment and avoid the scriptures as a
Premillenialist does.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

What answers your question is that no Premillenialist can make sense of the Isa passages of Joel in any consistent way.
The passages are dismissed as if they have no relevance.
Post and Amill writers and theologians see clear connections as Peter did with Joel in Acts 2.
They do not go outside the bible to look for solar eclipses, or silly blood moon ideas.
They recognise the language as God uses the figures over and over and see what were the results historically ....then understand Revelation and mt24, in light of a proper understanding of the language used. They do not fragment and avoid the scriptures as a
Premillenialist does.

And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. –Isa. 13.8

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. –Isa. 13.10

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. – Isa. 13.13

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. –Isa. 34.4

The issue at hand is not whether the prophets, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used figurative language to describe historical judgments. Compare Matthew 24-25 with 1 Th. 4.15-5.3 and 2 Pe. 3.10-13. I would even be willing to concede that the references to the coming of the Lord in the New Testament are to some extent figurative and, in all reverence, exaggerated. That, of course, would depend on the genre and context of the writer. If the “sorrows” (ὠδίν) in Mt. 24.8 are to be identified with the “travail” (ὠδίν) in 1 Th. 5.3, you have a problem because I would assume you interpret 1 Th. 5.3 and the context as referring to the (future) coming of the Lord:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. -1 Th. 4.16, 17

I realize you disagree with both, but, judging by your remarks, you seem to have more of an issue with Dispensationalism than with Premillennialism. I have not mentioned solar eclipses. Lunar eclipses do, by the way, cause the moon to appear blood red. I encourage you to do the research.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; -Rev. 6.12

Be that as it may, how do you interpret 1 Th. 4.16-5.3? Since you boast of consistency, please explain how these are consistently speaking of two different “comings” of the Lord.

I would also highly recommend this article. David Pyles, a Primitive Baptist elder, points out all the similarities between the Olivet Discourse and the writings of the apostles concerning the coming of the Lord. I think you will honestly see that you are the only one being inconsistent.

The Apostles on the Olivet Discourse

 

[Iconoclast]

And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. –Isa. 13.8

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. –Isa. 13.10

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. – Isa. 13.13

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. –Isa. 34.4

The issue at hand is not whether the prophets, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used figurative language to describe historical judgments. Compare Matthew 24-25 with 1 Th. 4.15-5.3 and 2 Pe. 3.10-13. I would even be willing to concede that the references to the coming of the Lord in the New Testament are to some extent figurative and, in all reverence, exaggerated. That, of course, would depend on the genre and context of the writer. If the “sorrows” (ὠδίν) in Mt. 24.8 are to be identified with the “travail” (ὠδίν) in 1 Th. 5.3, you have a problem because I would assume you interpret 1 Th. 5.3 and the context as referring to the (future) coming of the Lord:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. -1 Th. 4.16, 17

I realize you disagree with both, but, judging by your remarks, you seem to have more of an issue with Dispensationalism than with Premillennialism. I have not mentioned solar eclipses. Lunar eclipses do, by the way, cause the moon to appear blood red. I encourage you to do the research.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; -Rev. 6.12

Be that as it may, how do you interpret 1 Th. 4.16-5.3? Since you boast of consistency, please explain how these are consistently speaking of two different “comings” of the Lord.

I would also highly recommend this article. David Pyles, a Primitive Baptist elder, points out all the similarities between the Olivet Discourse and the writings of the apostles concerning the coming of the Lord. I think you will honestly see that you are the only one being inconsistent.

The Apostles on the Olivet Discourse

Hello PB 183
1thess answers the question of the believers,who have already died.They will be raised as we will be. This passage does not say when....but Jesus tells us in jn5,and jn6 it will be at the last day.
The article speaks of both the destruction of the ot holy place, and the second coming of Jesus on the last day.
70 ad happened as Jesus said it would...not one stone upon another....flee to the mountains.....
Jesus did not physically return in 70ad....but the judgment was......a coming in the clouds.... (an ot figure of judgment )...the judgment itself was the ...sign of the Son of MAN IN Heaven.
Jesus second coming physically. ..is the last day.

Now please address the language of the heaven rolling up like a scroll....stars falling to the earth....
PB...if one star,or sun fell to the earth...it would be the end of this earth.....the earth did not end when Babylon, or Edom was judged.....explain the language.....or read Chilton....explain why what he said was wrong.