That is more like it....
If you want to defend Premillenialist ideas you have to do more of this!
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Spiritual Interpretation....part two
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If you want to defend Premillenialist ideas you have to do more of this!
It reads as if the dead saints are physically in heaven with our Saviour God, & that blessed state will become the eternal state with the NH&NE. Not 2 separate realms but one, blessed by our God dwelling with us.
Rev. 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21 is the Eternal State, which happens after the Millinium here on earth!
When you study anything related to the Kingdom there are always some who suggest what they see, and try to break it up to fit a calendar.
Verses like this make me lean away from that;
15 And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'
16 and the twenty and four elders, who before God are sitting upon their thrones, did fall upon their faces, and did bow before God,
17 saying, `We give thanks to Thee, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art, and who wast, and who art coming, because Thou hast taken Thy great power and didst reign;
18 and the nations were angry, and Thine anger did come, and the time of the dead, to be judged, and to give the reward to Thy servants, to the prophets, and to the saints, and to those fearing Thy name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the land.'
19 And opened was the sanctuary of God in the heaven, and there was seen the ark of His covenant in His sanctuary, and there did come lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.
The other views, post, and Amill have to give account for the same verses.
Even George Ladd uses the verses similar to those other men in His book the gospel of the Kingdom...
First, it is not your place to tell someone else what he or she has to do in order to defend their interpretation of scripture, especially since you have not answered any of the arguments I have used illustrating that your interpretation and application of scripture ultimately leave you without hope.
Second, my post did address the question. As I stated (now for the third time) I do believe that the prophets sometimes used figurative language in prophesying historical judgments (e.g., the stars falling from the sky, the darkening of the sun and moon, earthquakes, the roaring of the sea, etc.). What is your point? How does this affect the clear teaching of Rev. 20 and Premillennialism? As for the place of the scripture you referenced, John was seeing things that must come to pass leading up to the end of the age. Incidentally, the end of the age did not come at the destruction of Jerusalem.
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (αἰών), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: -Lk. 20.35
I am sure you will ignore this reference as well. To be consistent, you must deny the (future) coming of the Lord and resurrection of the dead.
Uhh ladd is premillennial. And whether he did use the verses or not doesn't disprove mine, or prove your, point.
The fact that the kingdom was preached as "at hand" distinguishes it from the General universal sovereignty kingdom of God. There is a plethora of adherents to this belief on your side of the debate.
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I already told you that the abrahamic and davidic covenants require the throne to be on earth for the messianic kingdom. You skirted that whole issue and look where it's ended you up.
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On the contrary, you can't pinpoint when the kingdom of God starts. Luke 21:31 says that it happens at Christ's advent which you say happened at 70AD, but numerous of your scholars say that it also started at Pentecost based on proof texts, some at the resurrection based on other proof texts.
Now, for the passage which states Christ will set foot on an earthly throne, take a look at rev 3:21. The father's throne which is where Christ now is, is separate from the messianic throne, which evidently is where Christ is not, as he promises "I will sit on my throne." Will implies He was not sitting on it. And if He isn't sitting on a throne which the Jews and entire primitive church recognized as the davidic throne, His promise to sit on that very throne must yet be fulfilled.
And why might the entire primitive church have believed that Jesus's throne was messianic, Davidic? Because the angel tells Mary that God will give Jesus the throne of His father David (Luke 1:30ff).
Not to mention passages like Ezekiel 43:7, where God Himself says that His feet will dwell on earth through the messiah on david's throne forever for the fulfilment of the abrahamic and davidic covenants.
This abrahamic and davidic promise was so dear to the Jews of the first century who lived to hear Jesus and John the Baptist tell them that the kingdom of God (distinguished from the universal sovereign rule of God) was "at hand."
The Jewish hope of the earthly abrahamic and davidic kingdom is intertwined with their very existence. "One of these 12 sons, Joseph, is so taken with the [Abrahamic land-promise] that when anticipating his death in Egypt, he decrees that his body eventually be transported back to the land for burial" (Tom Davis in Ryrie's Countdown to Armageddon, p. 131).
Surely God cannot go back on His covenant promises.
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Hey can u look this over Ian
Who Gave the Right to Interpret "Spiritually"?
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Icono, kyredneck, Martin, etc. Can you look over these few posts of mine here
Who Gave the Right to Interpret "Spiritually"?
Give me a rebuttal?
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Who Gave the Right to Interpret "Spiritually"?
Give me a rebuttal?
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Jesus Christ, the son of David, will reign in Jerusalem just as David did.
You have to remember that when discussing eschatology, or anything for that matter, with men whose exegesis affords them the liberty to say that scripture always means something other than what it says, are not intimidated by challenges to a debate. They can always pull any explanation out of thin air.
I did not notice your response to 53, 54 and
"PrmtvBptst1832,
on a bible forum it is okay to ask for biblical support from a poster who has only offered 7 verses in 3 years without any explanation
I cannot believe you are this dense...
you said this 3x wonderful....My point is very simple and you have not answered it 3 times
In revelation 6...when the stars fall from the heaven to the earth...is that literal?
Answer that......
If it is not literal....what is it describing?
explain this passage...what is being described....Do not post about anything else just this for now.
I do not need you to say it is figurative language....explain it instead.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
"PrmtvBptst1832,
on a bible forum it is okay to ask for biblical support from a poster who has only offered 7 verses in 3 years without any explanation
You have been answered..
I cannot believe you are this dense...
you said this 3x wonderful....My point is very simple and you have not answered it 3 times
In revelation 6...when the stars fall from the heaven to the earth...is that literal?
Answer that......
If it is not literal....what is it describing?
explain this passage...what is being described....Do not post about anything else just this for now.
I do not need you to say it is figurative language....explain it instead.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
What does this passage describe?
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I'll answer only if you tell me what a presupposition is first.
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"Revelation 21 is the Eternal State, which happens after the Millinium here on earth!" If you read Revelation 20, you will see that it describes events in heaven -
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
The souls of the martyrs are living & reigning with Christ.
The question arises, "What is happening on earth during the "Millennium?"
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Satan was bound at Calvary so that the nations would no longer be deceived. The great commission emphasises that -
Mat. 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen
The present Gospel age is the millennium. Satan's hold on the nations is broken & his captives are freed by the Gospel. Jesus explained about the first resurrection that would save us from the second death -
John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
That spiritual resurrection of our souls has taken place at conversion. Don't confuse it with the general resurrection at Jesus' coming -
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Why are you using this passage as a proof text for spiritualizing the covenants of God into a non literal agreement of terms? How is abraham to know what the covenant is if the covenant is non literal? Is this God's method of making covenants? What about the covenant that we are party to? Is it literal or non literal?
You have it the wrong way around: the covenants should guide your presuppositions, not your presuppositions guide your interpretation of the covenants. What a dangerous thing it is to make God a liar and claim that His covenants are not exactly as He communicated them: we have no other revelation to claim that these covenants are not to be taken literally! Hebrews 8 and 10 and Peter's quote of Joel in acts chapter 2 do not claim that the abrahamic and davidic covenants are to be taken non literally. This is presuppositional thinking guiding ambiguous passages of scripture to make it dangerously say that the covenants are non literal!
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You have it the wrong way around: the covenants should guide your presuppositions, not your presuppositions guide your interpretation of the covenants. What a dangerous thing it is to make God a liar and claim that His covenants are not exactly as He communicated them: we have no other revelation to claim that these covenants are not to be taken literally! Hebrews 8 and 10 and Peter's quote of Joel in acts chapter 2 do not claim that the abrahamic and davidic covenants are to be taken non literally. This is presuppositional thinking guiding ambiguous passages of scripture to make it dangerously say that the covenants are non literal!
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I did reply at the time - March 28.
Regarding this quote:
"The neglect of the prophetic Scriptures on the part of theologians is all but complete, except for a limited survey of the intermediate state, the resurrection of the body, a passing reference to the second advent, and the eternal state. Theological writers, in some instances, have confessed their lack of preparation to deal with Bible prediction. In the opening of his treatise on the second advent (Systematic Theology, III, 790), Dr. Charles Hodge states: 'The subject cannot be adequately discussed without taking a survey of all the prophetic teachings of the Scriptures both of the Old Testament and of the New. This task cannot be satisfactorily accomplished by any one who has not made the study of the prophecies a specialty. The author, knowing that he has no such qualifications for the work, purposes to confine himself in a great measure to a historical survey of the different schemes of interpreting the Scriptural prophecies relating to this subject'" (Chafer, Systematic Theology, Eschatology, Ch. XIII).
Why should the Reformers not neglect "eschatology" when Christ is declared to be the fulfilment of prophecy? The recent futuristic interpetations claimed to be "literal" downplay the teaching of Jesus & his Apostles & "literalise" fulfilled prophecy. Also, they saw the Papacy as the false prophet of Revelation. They were dealing with the contemporary situation.
We also can use prophetic Scripture to deal with our contemporary situation, & the encouragement to standard faithfully in our troubled & sinful world.
Hebrews & Peter do claim that the covenants are fulfilled in & by the Lord Jesus Christ. We need have no fear of Abraham & David accusing God of lying with respect to the covenants when they see their Seed, Jesus & all nations being blessed.
Heb. 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Trouble is, the old covenant, with wonderful promises was powerless because of sin. Abraham & David - & you & I - need a perfect One to keep the terms of the covenant. That's where Jesus comes in -
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Heb. 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
If you read Heb. 11, you will see whether the Patriarchs expected earthly fulfilment of the covenant promises -
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
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39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
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39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
You actually think it was not reproachable that the reformers neglected prophecy? And no, futuristic interpretations are not recent. The best adherents to your beliefs all claim that the entire primitive church, all the way to late 3rd century Origen, were premillennial. Some even notice that the primitive church regarded it heresy to hold anything else than the premillennial and futuristic interpretation!
And what an amazement it is to find Luther desiring the church to be reformed to the pre-Augustinian days, inadvertently desiring the church to be reverting to the days of premillennialism!
Regarding your point that we downplay the words of Christ, how?
And how do premillennialists today not contemporarize prophecy?
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