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Spiritual interpretation ....pt.7

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PrmtvBptst1832

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So....it....Was ...there...but now it's not?

Does Jesus Kingly reign extend over the whole inhabited earth.,and the whole universe..or only like in a 10 ft.radius around Him?

If Jesus was sitting on a literal throne in Jerusalem....would His Kingdom only rule there?

IF you say His rule is everywhere....why could it not be true from the heavenly throne right now?
When Christ begins to rule, he will rule in the midst of his enemies. When he is finished, there will be no enemies. Even death and hades itself will be cast into the lake of fire. Do you really believe that the world today is being ruled with his rod of iron?

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. -Heb. 10.13
 

Iconoclast

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On what authority? 1 Peter 4:7 states that end of all things was at hand approximately 2,000 years ago. Therefore, in order to be consistent in his Preterist hermeneutic, how can he make such a claim?
What if it was the end of the theocracy at that time?
 

Iconoclast

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When Christ begins to rule, he will rule in the midst of his enemies. When he is finished, there will be no enemies. Even death and hades itself will be cast into the lake of fire. Do you really believe that the world today is being ruled with his rod of iron?

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. -Heb. 10.13
Yes...he rules now in the midst of his enemies,,,Psalm 110 is quoted 6x in the NT.....rod of iron rule....every idle word spoken will be judged on the last day...not one sin will be unpunished.
 

tyndale1946

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....another Postmil piece (I really like this guy, he speaks my mind!)

THE SIGNIFICANCE OF AD 70

"Today we are so distant from the events of AD 70, so removed from the ancient culture, so little acquainted with the first-century Jewish outlook, and so accustomed to the Christian perspective, we tend to overlook the enormous redemptive-historical significance of AD 70. Those events are not merely another sad instance in the history of “man’s inhumanity to man which makes countless thousands mourn.” They serve not as demonstration of “nature, red in tooth and claw.” Neither do they merely remind us of “the carnage of war, the blood-swollen god.”

But such is mistaken. Rather the devastating events of the Jewish War are the historical manifestations of the furious wrath of the offended God of Israel. Transcendent realities stand back of these temporal events. With Nahum we see the smoke of destruction as the dust clouds from God’s feet (Na 1). We learn that truly “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb 10:27) for “our God is a consuming fire” (Heb 10:31).

Israel’s failure and God’s response

Jehovah God sent His own Son to his covenant people, but they “received him not” (Jn 1:11). Indeed, they spitefully abused him in defiance of his gracious and loving overtures (Mt 11:28; 21:33-46; 23:34-47; Ac 7:51-53). Consequently, with His rejection, “the sons of the kingdom were cast out” (Mt 8:12), and “the kingdom of God was taken” from them (Mt 21:43).

Hebrews was written to warn of the disastrous consequences of Jewish Christians apostatizing back into Judaism (Heb 2:1-4; 6:1-4; 10:26-31), just as Jesus had warned (Mt 24:10, 12). It portrays “the day drawing near” (Heb 10:25; cp. Ac 2:16-20,40). This would effect a grand change in God’s redemptive administration — a change that both the author of Hebrews and John liken to “a new Jerusalem” (21:1; cp. 2Co 5:17; Gal 6:15; Heb 12:22; Rev 21:2), which is Christianity (Heb 12:23-25; cp. Gal 4:25-26; Rev 14:1-5).

In Hebrews 12 the writer powerfully presents his conclusion to his book-long warning. After reminding them from whence they had originally come (OT Israel, Heb 12:18-21), he informs them of where they have most recently been (NT Christianity):

“But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel” (Heb 12:22-24).

But many are defecting back to Judaism. And at the worst possible time. They were leaving the spiritual, anti-typical, fulfillment realities of Christianity to return to the material, typical, ceremonial world of a now-defunct Judaism. This apostasy occurred when God was about to “shake not only the earth, but also the heaven” (Heb 12:26). The shaking of the “created things” (12:27) speaks of the destruction of the temple system with its “made with hands” ritual implements (9:11, 24; cp. Mk 14:58), which are “ready to vanish away” (8:13; cp. Jn 4:21; Ac 6:14; 7:48; 2Co 3:11; Gal 4:25-30). In place of the OT system, Christianity will remain as a “kingdom which cannot be shaken” (12:28).

Israel’s failure and John’s Revelation

John’s message in Revelation performs the same play but on a different stage and in slightly different dress. John’s new creation presents a new world order: Christianity, which arises from within Israel (Rev 12) and remains after the destruction of the Jewish temple-based system (Rev 11). We know this is John’s point because immediately after describing the new creation in Revelation 21:1–22:5, we read:

“’These words are faithful and true’; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must shortly take place. And behold, I am coming quickly…. Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near” (22:6-7, 10).

Though even today we await a final, consummational, eternal new creation order (2Pe 3:7-13), we now live in the preparatory, spiritual new creation order established in the first-century. Calvin comments on Isaiah 65:17 noting that the “new heavens and new earth” is metaphorical language that “promises a remarkable change of affairs” when God “restores his Church” so that it “shall appear to gain new life and to dwell in a new world” (Isaiah, ad loc.). Westminster divine John Lightfoot even relates it to the destruction of Jerusalem “which is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world” (2:318). We know Isaiah 65 does not speak of the consummate order for it includes child bearing, sinners, death, and curse (Isa 65:20)."

I like him too... Definitely agrees with what I think... Now if I only had is rhetoric expertise?... Well I can dream can't I?... Brother Glen:)
 

Covenanter

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Re-reposting -

From another thread -
JoJ said:
It is often a characteristic (going back to Augustine) of those who believe in allegorical ("spiritual") interpretation to arrogantly dismiss those of us who hold to a literal (grammatical-historical) method.

Covenanter wrote:
Likewise it is often a characteristic of those who hold to a literal (grammatical-historical) method to dismiss those who hold to a SPIRITUAL method guided by Jesus (John 8:52-59 2 Corinthians 3:1-6 ) to dismiss our teaching as allegorical - without Biblical understanding.

Everyone, saved or unsaved, can basically read & understand the Scriptures by the literal (grammatical-historical) method. Read it like a history book, or even a novel. The Scribes & Pharisees excelled at that, & never heard its message.

We need the guidance of the New Covenant Scriptures to lead us into a right understanding of the Old Covenant Scriptures, and particularly Old Covenant prophecy as it is fulfilled in & by our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.

The OC prophets were very clear on the Messianic hope of a glorious future for Israel, which those who insist on the literal (grammatical-historical) method postpone to a yet future millennium.

However the New Covenant writers, guided by Jesus himself in his last week teaching & parables, hold out no such hope for for the carnal nation, instead teach a glorious hope for all who repent & believe in Jesus regardless of ethnicity.

The literal (grammatical-historical) method which focuses on the promises to national Israel, rather than Christ & his redeemed church of all nationalities, is WRONG.
 

Yeshua1

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On what authority? 1 Peter 4:7 states that end of all things was at hand approximately 2,000 years ago. Therefore, in order to be consistent in his Preterist hermeneutic, how can he make such a claim?
There was a new Covenant established with death of Jesus, and His resurrection, but the new world order waiting until he comes again!
 

Covenanter

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There was a new Covenant established with death of Jesus, and His resurrection, but the new world order waiting until he comes again!

I'm happy that you believe in a new covenant, but where do you find the "new world order" in Scripture?

I can find "world" & "order" in a verse in the ESV:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

The "world" of these verses (Gk kosmos) is the world of the Gospel age in which we are living, not a future world.
 

Covenanter

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kyredneck said:
Though even today we await a final, consummational, eternal new creation order (2Pe 3:7-13), we now live in the preparatory, spiritual new creation order established in the first-century.

On what authority? 1 Peter 4:7 states that end of all things was at hand approximately 2,000 years ago. Therefore, in order to be consistent in his Preterist hermeneutic, how can he make such a claim?

There was a new Covenant established with death of Jesus, and His resurrection, but the new world order waiting until he comes again!

I challenged Y1 on referring to the "new world order" but I see Kyredneck refers to the "new creation order." Again a term not found in Scripture, but Ky referred to a relevant Scripture, 2 Peter 3:7-13. I think Y1 & Ky are referring to the New Heaven & New Earth (NH&NE) but Y1 may mean a future millennium.

To answer PB -
I'm glad you agree that Peter teaches a Preterist hermeneutic. He is referring to the prophesied destruction as being at hand. If you read the previous chapter, you will see that Christ was preaching righteousness through Noah, & that only those who heard entered the ark & were saved. He uses this an analogy for baptism, whereby those baptised into Christ are saved. And those baptised into Christ will be delivered from the destruction that is at hand.

When we come to Ky's text, 2 Peter 3, we see the scoffers mocking Jesus' prophecy of his coming. Peter asserts that they will certainly be judged. The language of the translation makes us think of the final coming of the Lord Jesus at the end of time, to raise the dead & bring about the NH&NE.

However, we need to understand that under the old covenant order the tabernacle, & subsequently the temple were the meeting point of heaven & earth. Exodus 25:8 1 Kings 8:10-11 but see Acts 7:47-50

What are the elements that will melt?
Gal. 4:But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
They are the elements of the old covenant worship - the Law & the rituals that were prophesied to come to an absolute end in the lifetime of this generation.

The earth (Gk ge) is commonly used for the land of Israel, & in the context was about to be burnt up in the prophesied destruction.

Peter looks beyond that to a future righteous NH&NE, but for his hearers - & those Jews who rejected the Gospel message, that day was fast approaching.
 
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Iconoclast

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When Christ begins to rule, he will rule in the midst of his enemies. When he is finished, there will be no enemies. Even death and hades itself will be cast into the lake of fire. Do you really believe that the world today is being ruled with his rod of iron?

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. -Heb. 10.13
He has been ruling ....it takes time for the Kingdom growth to occur...it is happening as we speak.
 

Yeshua1

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I'm happy that you believe in a new covenant, but where do you find the "new world order" in Scripture?

I can find "world" & "order" in a verse in the ESV:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

The "world" of these verses (Gk kosmos) is the world of the Gospel age in which we are living, not a future world.
That would be the time where there is global peace, just Jesus worshipped, a real one world religion!
 

Yeshua1

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I challenged Y1 on referring to the "new world order" but I see Kyredneck refers to the "new creation order." Again a term not found in Scripture, but Ky referred to a relevant Scripture, 2 Peter 3:7-13. I think Y1 & Ky are referring to the New Heaven & New Earth (NH&NE) but Y1 may mean a future millennium.

To answer PB -
I'm glad you agree that Peter teaches a Preterist hermeneutic. He is referring to the prophesied destruction as being at hand. If you read the previous chapter, you will see that Christ was preaching righteousness through Noah, & that only those who heard entered the ark & were saved. He uses this an analogy for baptism, whereby those baptised into Christ are saved. And those baptised into Christ will be delivered from the destruction that is at hand.

When we come to Ky's text, 2 Peter 3, we see the scoffers mocking Jesus' prophecy of his coming. Peter asserts that they will certainly be judged. The language of the translation makes us think of the final coming of the Lord Jesus at the end of time, to raise the dead & bring about the NH&NE.

However, we need to understand that under the old covenant order the tabernacle, & subsequently the temple were the meeting point of heaven & earth. Exodus 25:8 1 Kings 8:10-11 but see Acts 7:47-50

What are the elements that will melt?
Gal. 4:But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
They are the elements of the old covenant worship - the Law & the rituals that were prophesied to come to an absolute end in the lifetime of this generation.

The earth (Gk ge) is commonly used for the land of Israel, & in the context was about to be burnt up in the prophesied destruction.

Peter looks beyond that to a future righteous NH&NE, but for his hearers - & those Jews who rejected the Gospel message, that day was fast approaching.
Actually, the scriptures refer to the days when the Second Coming happens, and there is a removal of the Curse, as there is paradise reborn on earth at that time!
 

Yeshua1

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Another tweet.....with no support. You still have not answered the questions.
There will be the Kingdom established at His Second Coming, in fulfillment of daniel prophecy of Him destroying all worldly Kingdoms, and new heavens and earth at end of that time!
 

Covenanter

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There will be the Kingdom established at His Second Coming, in fulfillment of daniel prophecy of Him destroying all worldly Kingdoms, and new heavens and earth at end of that time!

I have replied in detail to many of your posts.

Please answer these questions without posting one of your "thoughts."

Does my detailed reply to you, Ky & PB make sense to you?

Do you reject the system of theology that sees Israel as the focus of prophecy, rather than Jesus?

Do you look for "the Kingdom established at His Second Coming" as the NH&NE, or a complicated dispensational system?
 

Yeshua1

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I have replied in detail to many of your posts.

Please answer these questions without posting one of your "thoughts."

Does my detailed reply to you, Ky & PB make sense to you?

Do you reject the system of theology that sees Israel as the focus of prophecy, rather than Jesus?

Do you look for "the Kingdom established at His Second Coming" as the NH&NE, or a complicated dispensational system?
I have replied in detail to many of your posts.

Please answer these questions without posting one of your "thoughts."

Does my detailed reply to you, Ky & PB make sense to you?

Do you reject the system of theology that sees Israel as the focus of prophecy, rather than Jesus?

Do you look for "the Kingdom established at His Second Coming" as the NH&NE, or a complicated dispensational system?
The focus of prophecy is Jesus, and the Kingdom will come to whole earth when he institutes that at His Second Coming!
 

percho

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I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Tim 4:1 KJV
Because he hath appointed a day, (singular) in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:31

What day did that take place in 70 AD? ----- I forgot.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

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Yes...he rules now in the midst of his enemies,,,Psalm 110 is quoted 6x in the NT.....rod of iron rule....every idle word spoken will be judged on the last day...not one sin will be unpunished.

He is not in the midst of his enemies. He is in heaven. Jesus received the authority to rule after his resurrection. What happens when he returns?

"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it. "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.' "'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.' "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.' "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.' "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.' "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?' "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.' "'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!' "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me.'" (Luke 19:15-27)

He reigns with his faithful servants. As bad as the destruction of Jerusalem was, there judgment is going to be much worse in the day of judgment. If verse 27 is the destruction of Jerusalem and not the day of judgment, then so is the part about the servants. We both know that isn't.
 

PrmtvBptst1832

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I challenged Y1 on referring to the "new world order" but I see Kyredneck refers to the "new creation order." Again a term not found in Scripture, but Ky referred to a relevant Scripture, 2 Peter 3:7-13. I think Y1 & Ky are referring to the New Heaven & New Earth (NH&NE) but Y1 may mean a future millennium.

To answer PB -
I'm glad you agree that Peter teaches a Preterist hermeneutic. He is referring to the prophesied destruction as being at hand. If you read the previous chapter, you will see that Christ was preaching righteousness through Noah, & that only those who heard entered the ark & were saved. He uses this an analogy for baptism, whereby those baptised into Christ are saved. And those baptised into Christ will be delivered from the destruction that is at hand.

When we come to Ky's text, 2 Peter 3, we see the scoffers mocking Jesus' prophecy of his coming. Peter asserts that they will certainly be judged. The language of the translation makes us think of the final coming of the Lord Jesus at the end of time, to raise the dead & bring about the NH&NE.

However, we need to understand that under the old covenant order the tabernacle, & subsequently the temple were the meeting point of heaven & earth. Exodus 25:8 1 Kings 8:10-11 but see Acts 7:47-50

What are the elements that will melt?
Gal. 4:But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
They are the elements of the old covenant worship - the Law & the rituals that were prophesied to come to an absolute end in the lifetime of this generation.

The earth (Gk ge) is commonly used for the land of Israel, & in the context was about to be burnt up in the prophesied destruction.

Peter looks beyond that to a future righteous NH&NE, but for his hearers - & those Jews who rejected the Gospel message, that day was fast approaching.

I certainly do not believe that the "all things" Peter had in mind was the destruction of Jerusalem. I was merely pointing out that Preterists have no right to claim that verse as a proof text for a new heavens and new earth in their future because their hermeneutic does not allow it. "At hand" means exactly that according to Preterists. That was my point. You can say Peter was looking for this or that, but you cannot prove that. All we have is what he wrote.
 
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