Good post,good questions....will get to this later on
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Spiritual Interpretation....pt6
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Questions?
I notice above that it is in the future when the sitting down with and the casting out thereof takes place; When in the future would it even be possible for that to take place?
Are there things that have to take place before that can even happen?
BTW, I am attempting to entrap you.
Jesus did not correct his Apostles on Israel never getting the Kingdom, but that it was not to be at that time!
Mt21:43 speaks to that.....
This is WHEN the kingdom changed hands:
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full from extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside thereof may become clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men`s bones, and of all uncleanness.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23
The kingdom 'given to others' manifested as:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed.
46 And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13
6 And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, he shook out his raiment and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. Acts 18
27 For this people`s heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest, haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that this salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles: they will also hear. Acts 28:28
OK percho, I took the bait, now what?
I'm curious at what all you read into that. How far 'dispy' do you go with this? We Gentiles going to be servants to Jews in the kingdom? Jews will be our masters in the kingdom?
Consult your system manual. How does your spin on this passage harmonize with:
19..... Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever.... Mt 21
20 Rejoice over her [Deuteronomy 28:63], thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood [Matthew 23:35] of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18
13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which he will work for you to-day: for the Egyptians [Revelation 11:8] whom ye have seen to-day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. Ex 14
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This is WHEN the kingdom changed hands:
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21
2 saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses seat:
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows` houses, even while for a pretence ye make long prayers: therefore ye shall receive greater condemnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye cleanse the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full from extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the platter, that the outside thereof may become clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men`s bones, and of all uncleanness.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous,
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23
The kingdom 'given to others' manifested as:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed.
46 And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13
6 And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, he shook out his raiment and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. Acts 18
27 For this people`s heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest, haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that this salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles: they will also hear. Acts 28:28
OK percho, I took the bait, now what?
I was more focused on the future tense of verses 11 and 12.
When in the future, beyond when those verses were stated, would it be possible for someone to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Was Abraham sitting down in the kingdom of God at the time that was stated?
I believe the kingdom of God is relative to the resurrection. I do not believe Abraham will be sitting down in the kingdom of God until he is resurrected from the dead.
Consider 1 Cor 15:50 also 15:23,24
1 Chro 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
Did David and Solomon sit on the throne of the kingdom of God?
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: Luke 1:31,32
Was it given to him before or after the resurrection? When did the heir become the inheritor. When will the joint heirs become joint inheritors?
I say and I believe the word of God says, it is still future, when the sitting down with and the casting out thereof, takes place.
11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8
It's not only 'the fathers' we now recline with in the kingdom of heaven, but Christ Himself!:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: Eph 1
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: Eph 2
1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. Col 3
"Many shall come from the east and the west"
The spread and extent of His kingdom was foretold in many places in the scriptures:
But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14
And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4
So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10
And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27
Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10
God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.... Gen 9:27
For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54:3
And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mt 24:31
After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9
At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10
Look closer at the time indicator percho:
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21
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From another thread -
Covenanter wrote:
Likewise it is often a characteristic of those who hold to a literal (grammatical-historical) method to dismiss those who hold to a SPIRITUAL method guided by Jesus (John 8:52-59 2 Corinthians 3:1-6 ) to dismiss our teaching as allegorical - without Biblical understanding.
Everyone, saved or unsaved, can basically read & understand the Scriptures by the literal (grammatical-historical) method. Read it like a history book, or even a novel. The Scribes & Pharisees excelled at that, & never heard its message.
We need the guidance of the New Covenant Scriptures to lead us into a right understanding of the Old Covenant Scriptures, and particularly Old Covenant prophecy as it is fulfilled in & by our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.
The OC prophets were very clear on the Messianic hope of a glorious future for Israel, which those who insist on the literal (grammatical-historical) method postpone to a yet future millennium.
However the New Covenant writers, guided by Jesus himself in his last week teaching & parables, hold out no such hope for for the carnal nation, instead teach a glorious hope for all who repent & believe in Jesus regardless of ethnicity.
The literal (grammatical-historical) method which focuses on the promises to national Israel, rather than Christ & his redeemed church of all nationalities, is WRONG.
John of Japan said:
Covenanter wrote:
Likewise it is often a characteristic of those who hold to a literal (grammatical-historical) method to dismiss those who hold to a SPIRITUAL method guided by Jesus (John 8:52-59 2 Corinthians 3:1-6 ) to dismiss our teaching as allegorical - without Biblical understanding.
Everyone, saved or unsaved, can basically read & understand the Scriptures by the literal (grammatical-historical) method. Read it like a history book, or even a novel. The Scribes & Pharisees excelled at that, & never heard its message.
We need the guidance of the New Covenant Scriptures to lead us into a right understanding of the Old Covenant Scriptures, and particularly Old Covenant prophecy as it is fulfilled in & by our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ.
The OC prophets were very clear on the Messianic hope of a glorious future for Israel, which those who insist on the literal (grammatical-historical) method postpone to a yet future millennium.
However the New Covenant writers, guided by Jesus himself in his last week teaching & parables, hold out no such hope for for the carnal nation, instead teach a glorious hope for all who repent & believe in Jesus regardless of ethnicity.
The literal (grammatical-historical) method which focuses on the promises to national Israel, rather than Christ & his redeemed church of all nationalities, is WRONG.
No, for when israel is restored, all will worship and obey their King Jesus, not them!
God declared that Messiah would reign over the earth in His kingdom, and we have yet to see that her eon earth!
Show it from scripture.
Quoting a 20 page article is NOT "showing it from Scripture."
Eben though it uses scriptures to make the point?
Well I will show it from scripture but it doesn't in any way agree with what he said... Brother Glen
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Then there is this one!
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
According to scripture as I understand it we are reigning now, then again that is up to the interpretation how each one see it... That's how I see it!... Brother Glen
The New Covenant writers, write from the promise of, "In thy seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed."
Yet Paul specifically states that takes place, through, the blindness of unbelief, in part to Israel and goes on to state, yet all Israel shall be saved, by being grafted in again.
They tell us that takes place by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the guarantee that you will inherit the kingdom of God. See Eph 1:13,14 1 Cor 15:50 It does not enter you into the kingdom of God.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor 15:23
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:6
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 5:10
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Luke 19:15
Are the servants he gave the money the ones who will be kings and priests? Today May 22, 2017 have all the servants been called? Are there no more to be called? Is Jesus still calling and giving money (I believe the Holy Spirit) to be kings and priests?
Isn't it when he returns the reigning on the earth takes place?
After the resurrection? Every one in his own order?
Your are missing my point. The Jews, including the apostles, expected Jesus to restore again the kingdom to Israel. This is plain in the accounts of those who spoke concerning his birth, especially in the Gospel of Luke. This is plain also in the question posed to Jesus by his apostles.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. -Lk. 1.32, 33
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. -Lk. 1.68-75
Seeing that is the case, and cannot be denied, Jesus never redirected their hope concerning the kingdom of God to the body of Christ or anything such as that up to the very end. If you someone were to ask you when, not if, the kingdom is going to be restored to Israel, as the apostles did, you would not answer the way Jesus answered. You would simply say, "Never; You have totally misunderstood what the kingdom is." Jesus did not say that. Now, let's imagine that you spend three years with twelve men who ask you at the end of those three years about a kingdom totally contrary to everything you taught them during those three years. That would say something very important about you and/or them. That just doesn't even begin to make sense that that's what is going on here in Acts 1:6. It's truly astounding that you should completely ignore the immediately preceding verses of Acts 3 that you quoted. That's very interesting.
Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. -Ac. 3.19-22
I would love to know where you get the idea that you are to be involved in the preaching the gospel to the nations as Mat. 24.14 is fulfilled in your system of interpretation. Mt. 28.19 is directly connected to it. The end (of the age) will come when the gospel of the kingdom is preached in all nations, and Christ will be with those completing that task until the end of the age. Hmmm...
Paul explicitly tells us in no uncertain terms that all Israel will be saved. Read the prophets and what they wrote from ancient time per Acts 3.19-22. You're starting with the New Testament. Those Christians did not even have one yet. All they had was the Old Testament. As far as the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel and the two witnesses, they're interesting topics to study, but I think denying the kingdom of God for some weak and flimsy idea of the kingdom of God is far more serious at this point. Your description of the kingdom of God is nothing like the glorious things we read in scripture.
Acts 2 does not state that Christ is seated on David's throne. He is seated at the write hand of God till that time, or, "waiting" for his enemies to be made his footstool." (Heb. 10.13) If he was already seated on David's throne in Acts 3, why were the Jews told to repent and return so that Christ, who had been appointed for them, would be sent to them to bring about the restoration of all things the prophets had spoken about? That would have already been the case.
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