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Spiritual Life

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JonC

JonC

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Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
Do you deny that Adam suffered spiritual death, and that all after him save for Jesus experience that by having sin natures when born?
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I do deny that Adam suffered the dying spiritually as Scripture presents spiritual life in such a way that this is impossible. It may not be as simple a view, but I cannot turn my back on Scripture just to work things out in theology. If you and @Martin Marprelate are comfortable "going there" then that is fine, we are all responsible for our own faith and I do not hold it against you.

But for me, I will follow God the best I can and that means a faithfulness to Scripture even if it is a more narrow way.
 
JonC

JonC

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Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
That is the way God related towards man!
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Again, this is the same logical fallacy you have been dabbling in.

God also dealt with man outside of any covenant. So using your logic one could deny that God uses covenants at all. As you can (hopefully) see, it is a very stupid way to argue.
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
I do deny that Adam suffered the dying spiritually as Scripture presents spiritual life in such a way that this is impossible. It may not be as simple a view, but I cannot turn my back on Scripture just to work things out in theology. If you and @Martin Marprelate are comfortable "going there" then that is fine, we are all responsible for our own faith and I do not hold it against you.

But for me, I will follow God the best I can and that means a faithfulness to Scripture even if it is a more narrow way.
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Did Adam need a messiah to save Him and to grant to Him spiritual life again?
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
Again, this is the same logical fallacy you have been dabbling in.

God also dealt with man outside of any covenant. So using your logic one could deny that God uses covenants at all. As you can (hopefully) see, it is a very stupid way to argue.
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God related towards us by various Covenants, so adam would have been under one of them!
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
Did Adam need a messiah to save Him and to grant to Him spiritual life again?
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No. Scripture does not say "again". Scripture says that Jesus is the first "man" to have spiritual life. He is the "Firstborn" among many brethern (those to come).

Do you believe God meant to say that Adam would be the "Second-Born" who would restore man "in Adam"?
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
No. Scripture does not say "again". Scripture says that Jesus is the first "man" to have spiritual life. He is the "Firstborn" among many brethern (those to come).

Do you believe God meant to say that Adam would be the "Second-Born" who would restore man "in Adam"?
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I hold that OT saints would have been redeemed by Messiah and restored back to God, and possessed spiritual life, correct?
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
God related towards us by various Covenants, so adam would have been under one of them!
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God related towards us by ONE covenant.
But God related to some through covenants (His Covenantal People) and others not through Covenants. God related to OT people in and out of covenants.

You seem to be tossing out really silly and false arguments. Take your time and consider what you believe before you respond.
 
JonC

JonC

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Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
I hold that OT saints would have been redeemed by Messiah and restored back to God, and possessed spiritual life, correct?
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No. The Bible says that what God did was something NEW, a NEW CREATION. NOT a restoration back to God but a rebirth.
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
God related towards us by ONE covenant.
But God related to some through covenants (His Covenantal People) and others not through Covenants. God related to OT people in and out of covenants.

You seem to be tossing out really silly and false arguments. Take your time and consider what you believe before you respond.
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I am referring to his own people, as each one of them had to have a n established Covenant relationship with God, correct?
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
No. The Bible says that what God did was something NEW, a NEW CREATION. NOT a restoration back to God but a rebirth.
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Adam did not need Jesus to have spiritual life before the Fall.... he was created in a unique way and already possessed it....
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
Adam did not need Jesus to have spiritual life before the Fall.... he was created in a unique way and already possessed it....
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Prior to the Fall I do not think we could say there was a "need", but that the need was logically a potential. This, of course, does not mean that Adam was created already possessing spiritual life. That is a weird conclusion. It means that Adam had not yet sinned. He was created natural, not spiritual, per 2 Corinthians 15.

You have to be careful not to deny Scripture in affirming your theories. Please take your time to work through this before responding.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
Adam lost something that Jesus had to regain back for him, correct?
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No. This is paganism. Scripture says that Adam was changed, but not that Adam "lost something that Jesus had to regain back for him". That is heresy. Scripture instead says that Adam was created natural (flesh) while Christ became a life giving spirit (the "last" or "second" Adam became spirit, first the natural and second the spiritual....a seed must fall).

Pagans look to return to the Garden. Christians look to a rebirth.
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
Prior to the Fall I do not think we could say there was a "need", but that the need was logically a potential. This, of course, does not mean that Adam was created already possessing spiritual life. That is a weird conclusion. It means that Adam had not yet sinned. He was created natural, not spiritual, per 2 Corinthians 15.

You have to be careful not to deny Scripture in affirming your theories. Please take your time to work through this before responding.
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Do we really know what the very image of God was like in Adam when he was created though, before the fall totally marred and distorted him?
Adam was not like any of us, as he was created by God, not born as all of us are, and unlike us, he had no sin nature in the beginning!
 
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Yeshua1

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JonC said:
No. This is paganism. Scripture says that Adam was changed, but not that Adam "lost something that Jesus had to regain back for him". That is heresy. Scripture instead says that Adam was created natural (flesh) while Christ became a life giving spirit (the "last" or "second" Adam became spirit, first the natural and second the spiritual....a seed must fall).

Pagans look to return to the Garden. Christians look to a rebirth.
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Adam lost his spiritual life he had with God, and Jesus as Messiah restored that for Him again then!
To be saved andback in a relationship with God is what Jesus bought for Adam and Eve...
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Yeshua1 said:
Adam lost his spiritual life he had with God, and Jesus as Messiah restored that for Him again then!
To be saved andback in a relationship with God is what Jesus bought for Adam and Eve...
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I know that is what you believe. It would be really cool if Scripture said that, but unfortunately it does not. Instead Scripture presents the natural (Adam) coming first, the spiritual (Christ as the "last Adam") second, and men having to be recreated, God putting His Spirit in them, for spiritual life.
 
Particular

Particular

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JonC said:
I know that is what you believe. It would be really cool if Scripture said that, but unfortunately it does not. Instead Scripture presents the natural (Adam) coming first, the spiritual (Christ as the "last Adam") second, and men having to be recreated, God putting His Spirit in them, for spiritual life.
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God recreates men rather than resurrects them? Jon, are you a practicing Jehovah's Witness?
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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JonC said:
I know that is what you believe. It would be really cool if Scripture said that, but unfortunately it does not. Instead Scripture presents the natural (Adam) coming first, the spiritual (Christ as the "last Adam") second, and men having to be recreated, God putting His Spirit in them, for spiritual life.
Click to expand...
Do you see all humans save for Jesus as being born with sin natures then?
 
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