Spiritually Dead or Spiritually Separated?

[DHK]

Man's free will is bounded by his fallen state. Its that simple. He can choose what seems good to the world, but without the Holy Spirit, quickening, whatever you want to call it, man cannot respond to the Divine.

And thus is the stated position of the Reformed.
However, as has been posted before, what answer can be given for those that chose to respond to Christ "of their own will" not being influenced by Christ at all?

To the Roman Centurion:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where did this centurion "get his faith" from?

To the men carrying the one sick of the palsy Jesus said:
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
--It was their faith; obviously Jesus didn't give it to them.

To the woman diseased with an issue of blood, Jesus said:
Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
--The woman's faith.

To two blind men requesting to be healed, he said:
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
--"their faith"--where did it come from; not from Christ.

A Canaanite woman had a daughter vexed with a demon and came to Jesus for help. Jesus first likened her to a dog:
Matthew 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
But when she continued to plead, Jesus said:
Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
--A Gentile woman had great faith according to Jesus. How did she come by this great faith? She certainly wasn't saved, or regenerated.

Paul came to Lystra and met a cripple:
Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
--Where did the faith come from? Paul makes no inference that it was from God.

All throughout the Bible, and especially the gospels faith is spoken of in a personal way. Jesus again and again speaks of "your faith."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2194194&postcount=187

 

[Rippon]

The construct of "free-will" is fictional. There cannot be true free will when people are hampered by their sin and can do nothing pleasing to God. To call the will "free" is to totally invert the meaning of free.

 

[percho]

The construct of "free-will" is fictional. There cannot be true free will when people are hampered by their sin and can do nothing pleasing to God. To call the will "free" is to totally invert the meaning of free.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:9

By the same token, does the above, trump, free will? Can one deceived even know he is deceived?

 

[savedbymercy]

But with faculties of apparent remorse, will to change, and actual change, apparently left intact, i.e., the "dead" in that story by the fact that he repented was capable of repentance.



And the "dead" at Sardis were exhorted to "repent" without any indication that by being "dead" they were incapable of repentance.



And yet Christians "dead to sin" still sin when they have a reckoning problem.



Hardly.



I don't expect satisfaction from the BB.



Okay, "dead" means "dead" and that's all "dead" means. Now what does dead mean? At least the dead are exhorted to awake from the dead, the dead are exhorted to repent, the dead are exhorted to do good deeds. Why? Because they're spiritually dead but desired by God to be spiritually alive. But none of the "dead" verses specifically mention whether or not they can or cannot change or repent in response to God's invitation to do so. But if we only look at those verses, it is more implied not only that they should but also could, than denied.



Except this is not what the verse of this thread says or teaches. It teaches that the dead were made alive. Later on it says how, by grace. And by what means, by an individual's faith.

But whom in the Bible does the Holy Spirit not allow to repent and be saved who wants to repent? We don't know, since all who repent we must assume (by your terminology, not the Bible's) were "enabled". Yet we have instances of people resisting the Holy Spirit, and Jesus saying that the Jews were not willing to come to him, and therefore they would not have life.



In other words, unless I'm mistaken, you believe that you are born again or regenerated without any assent on your part (or cloaked in the term "enabled"?) in order that you may believe. While I would agree that the Holy Spirit enables the lost to believe, I would not cloak the terminology or your beliefs, unless I'm mistaken in your monergistic beliefs.

Because the Synergist views man and God cooperating in salvation. According to the Synergist view God will not assault the sinner's free will. Has stated previously the Synergist believes sinners are not totally unable. They possess the ability to believe in spite of their sin. Obviously, as a Monergist, I disagree. So, this is not a moot argument.

Because man is fallen and God is gracious, he assists, enables, inclines, convicts, persuades man to exercise faith, but the actual exercise of faith is man's alone, whereby he is justified, just as his refusal to exercise faith is his alone, whereby he is damned.

Those in the flesh can't believe because They can't please God Rom 8:8 !

 

[savedbymercy]

In Ephesians 2:1 death means spiritual separation.
If it meant literally "corpse" then not only would he not be able to choose that which is good or even Godly, but he wouldn't be able to choose bad either. He would be unable to choose anything. A corpse would have absolutely no choice at all. But it is evident that he does. Every person in this world makes choices every day. What makes us different than the animal kingdom is that we are able to reason and make choices. The unsaved are able to think and make choices that the animals are not. They are not just corpses. They respond.

Not only do they respond to one another, they respond to God in a way that God says they have no excuse (Rom.1:20).
Paul says (Rom.2:14,15) that God has put his law in the hearts of every man. The know innately when they have done wrong. They know immediately that it is wrong to lie, steal, commit murder, adultery, etc. Why? The law of God is written in their hearts.
Not only the law of God, but also God has given everyone a conscience. They feel guilt about the wrong they have done. And just like Adam and Eve they begin to excuse themselves and accuse others. They lie and point the finger at others even if they are guilty. It is human nature. But the conscience will always bother them, telling them that they are in the wrong.

They are not corpses. They are responding to God's law, the conscience that God gave them.
God also gave them natural revelation that declares Him.

The heavens declare the glory of God and firmament showeth forth his handiwork...

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

A corpse cannot be without excuse.
--He can be separated from God, but he cannot be without excuse.

His problem is that he needs to be reconciled to God.
God has given unto us the ministry of reconciliation.

Those in the flesh cannot please God, Rom 8:8 and Faith pleases God Hebrew 11:6 so then those in the flesh can't believe !

 

[savedbymercy]

Being spiritually dead is not like being a stiff corpse, quite contrary, its to react in a active rebellious nature, and its the not being able to change which is liken as being a corpse, in other words to get man to change from being rebellious by nature is like getting a dead corpse to change !

 

[DHK]

Those in the flesh cannot please God, Rom 8:8 and Faith pleases God Hebrew 11:6 so then those in the flesh can't believe !

Why not answer the post instead of just repeating your mantra.

 

[savedbymercy]

Why not answer the post instead of just repeating your mantra.

Its worth repeating, if you would believe the Truth of those verses, you would gain some understanding !

Also I posted this:

Being spiritually dead is not like being a stiff corpse, quite contrary, its to react in a active rebellious nature, and its the not being able to change which is liken as being a corpse, in other words to get man to change from being rebellious by nature is like getting a dead corpse to change !

 

[DHK]

Its worth repeating, if you would believe the Truth of those verses, you would gain some understanding !

Also I posted this:

You don't answer the post. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Let me help you along:

To the Roman Centurion:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where did this centurion "get his faith" from?

The Roman Centurion was an unsaved Gentile at the time he came to Jesus.
Jesus commended him for "HIS" faith.

 

[savedbymercy]

You don't answer the post. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Let me help you along:

To the Roman Centurion:
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
--Where did this centurion "get his faith" from?

The Roman Centurion was an unsaved Gentile at the time he came to Jesus.
Jesus commended him for "HIS" faith.

If he had Faith then he was born again, that's simple, since They that are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

 

[Reformed]

Folks, I have not forgotten to reply. I had to drive to Florida (900 miles). I will resume participation as soon as I can.

 

[DHK]

If he had Faith then he was born again, that's simple, since They that are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

Many of your answers are "in the flesh." They are carnal. For example, to a well thought out post you curtly reply "invalid comment." That is "of the flesh" or carnal. And it doesn't please God. All that you do on this forum "doesn't please God, so work from there.
IOW, the phrase "in the flesh" does not just apply to the unsaved.

(Don't misunderstand what I said. I didn't say: everything you said was carnal; I said or meant to say that some of your posts are "in the flesh" or carnal. Don't take it the wrong way.)

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--Contrary to some people's thinking here, these "brethren" that Paul was addressing here were the "carnal Christians" at Corinth. But some would go so far as to deny scripture than to admit that their theology could be wrong.

 

[savedbymercy]

Many of your answers are "in the flesh." They are carnal. For example, to a well thought out post you curtly reply "invalid comment." That is "of the flesh" or carnal. And it doesn't please God. All that you do on this forum "doesn't please God, so work from there.
IOW, the phrase "in the flesh" does not just apply to the unsaved.

(Don't misunderstand what I said. I didn't say: everything you said was carnal; I said or meant to say that some of your posts are "in the flesh" or carnal. Don't take it the wrong way.)

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--Contrary to some people's thinking here, these "brethren" that Paul was addressing here were the "carnal Christians" at Corinth. But some would go so far as to deny scripture than to admit that their theology could be wrong.

Personal attacks now !

 

[DHK]

Personal attacks now !

The only person who never says anything "of the flesh" is the person that is perfect or without sin.
The Bible says of that person:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do you really think it was a personal attack?

 

[savedbymercy]

The only person who never says anything "of the flesh" is the person that is perfect or without sin.
The Bible says of that person:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Do you really think it was a personal attack?

Rabbit Trail !

 

[DHK]

Rabbit Trail !

Now read again:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2196926&postcount=32

 

[savedbymercy]

Now read again:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2196926&postcount=32

Rabbit Trail!

 

[Reformed]

I am sorry for not responding earlier. I am out of state for the next week and have limited access to the Internet.

Paul makes a similar reference to Ephesians 2:1 in Colossians 2:13.

And likewise those don't talk about the intricacies of the process any more than what we discussed above, but just that we were dead/lost/unsaved but now are alive/found/saved.

You are seeking a disputation on process when the issue is what does Paul mean by using nekros. Why that specific, graphic word? I am starting to sound like a broken record with my responses because the questions you are asking are all similar.

Can the sinner respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit without the same Spirit making a positive response possible? No.

Your "without the same Spirit making a positive response possible" is not biblical language. More biblical would be words like, "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” (Luke 11:13)

If by biblical you mean a direct quote from scripture, then no, it is not. But if that is the litmus test for responding then we might as well ditch any response in this thread that is not a direct scripture quote. The point is biblical.

Can the sinner positively respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit if that same Spirit illumines the sinner's heart? Yes. Not only yes, the sinner cannot help but positively respond to the gospel call.

Yet we have every man who comes into the world being illumined by none other than the Light of the world himself, yet not all of these illumined ones repent and believe the gospel. And also we have Acts 7:51, ". . . You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you," which shows that the Holy Spirit can be, was, and no doubt is resisted all the time.

John 1:4 is connected all the way back the Genesis creation narrative. Man was created as a higher order of creature than the rest of creation. He was created in the moral likeness of God. That likeness was marred by sin, but it is not gone. Man still retains a spiritual component. Fallen but retained The light man possesses today is the same type of light that allows him to conclude that there is a God (Romans 1), but that knowledge is not sufficient to save him. Indeed, in the next verse (John 1:5) the Apostle writes, "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." We are back to Romans 8:7: 1 Corinthians 2:14; and Ephesians 2:1 - total inability.

Back in Ephesians 2, this is why I see significance in Paul's "But God" in verse 4. Even while the sinner was dead as a corpse spiritually, God made him alive in Christ. No action is recorded by Paul on the part of the living corpse, the sinner.

Yes, not even faith is mentioned as necessary or even a component in that concise metaphor, and that is why the metaphor is not meant to be carried to the extent that Calvinists seem predetermined to carry it to!

Says you. It is God who made us alive while we were still dead in our trespasses and sin.

Instead God takes unilateral action.

What other action could God ever take?

Ask that question to your Synergist friends.

 

[DHK]

Originally Posted by Reformed
Back in Ephesians 2, this is why I see significance in Paul's "But God" in verse 4. Even while the sinner was dead as a corpse spiritually, God made him alive in Christ. No action is recorded by Paul on the part of the living corpse, the sinner.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
The word indeed is nekros, indicating dead, or spiritually dead in context but again referring to separation. The word is used 132 times in various contexts.

For example, in the second chapter of James:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In each of the above four cases the word for death is nekros or as you say, corpse. "Faith, if has not works is "corpse."
Well no. If faith is separated from works, James says it is alone, "being alone," and therefore without works it is "a corpse"?? No again. If faith is separated from works there is no corpse, that is not the point. It simply means that the faith is useless. The works must proceed from the faith to be of any use. The faith is still there. It is not as a corpse, lifeless, non-existent. It is inoperable, unable to produce works or the right kind of works.

 

[steaver]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
The word indeed is nekros, indicating dead, or spiritually dead in context but again referring to separation. The word is used 132 times in various contexts.

For example, in the second chapter of James:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In each of the above four cases the word for death is nekros or as you say, corpse. "Faith, if has not works is "corpse."
Well no. If faith is separated from works, James says it is alone, "being alone," and therefore without works it is "a corpse"?? No again. If faith is separated from works there is no corpse, that is not the point. It simply means that the faith is useless. The works must proceed from the faith to be of any use. The faith is still there. It is not as a corpse, lifeless, non-existent. It is inoperable, unable to produce works or the right kind of works.

Excellent exegesis of Scripture! :thumbs: It is tough to persuade those who have already succumbed to the error of Calvinism. I would say even impossible. But there are many observers which are dabbling in understanding these things whom can be helped to avoid the same mistakes.