Spiritually dead, yet not guilty?

[Skandelon]

I agree with much of what Skan posted above, with a small exception (to a degree)... as to when do we know we are sinning.

I believe scripture is very clear on this issue and that while we might not know when we 'have' sinned (as in looking back) we 'will' know when we do it.

Sinning is a cognitive choice just as faith is. Thus in order to make it one must understand what they are doing, and act toward or against that knowledge.

Sinning isn't just doing something wrong but understanding what you are doing and against whom you have acted. Sin is an act against God's commands, thus in order for it to be sin, they must know what it is and make the decision to act contrary to it, and against the one who established that law or rule.

This was Jesus point in John 9:41

as well as in John 15:22

All good points. I agree.:thumbsup:

As John McArthur has stated we can not find anywhere in scripture that man is judged by or for his sin nature.

I'd love to have that actual quote if you know where it is. That would come in handy.

 

[webdog]

One can not be spiritually dead w/o condemnation. If one is spiritually dead, they are guilty. Furthermore, one can not be spiritually dead, and NOT a sinner. That is biblically impossible.


As far as for Adam, he died spiritually(plus the sentence of death was placed upon him and all flesh), and yet, God communicated with him. Cain was spiritually dead, and yet God spoke to him. The rich man in hell was spiritually dead(of course), and he spoke with Father Abraham. All of these were under condemnation, were under guilt, and seperated from God(spiritual death), and yet they understood everything that God said.

Thats the way I understand it. It seems to try to explain away inconsistencies in Augustinianism (while still embracing it due to the fact most of the modern church does) the phrases need to be redefined or excluded to make it work. Fact is, if a baby is formed a sinner due to Adam, they are dead and guilty, and unless the gospel is delivered through the umbilical cord and understood, the baby perishes. That is the natural conclusion to Augustinianism hence the invention of infant baptism. I would rather understand Scripture that states we were dead in our trespasses and sins. That is as straight and to the point as it gets...yet is brushed aside due to an RCC adopted position.

 

[Allan]

One can not be spiritually dead w/o condemnation. If one is spiritually dead, they are guilty. Furthermore, one can not be spiritually dead, and NOT a sinner. That is biblically impossible.

Fortunately scripture states it is very much so a possibility and is a biblical fact.

Spiritually dead does not mean guilty of sin. It means you are not in union with God, and that is all. We are not born with guilt of sin upon us, as all sin is a cognitive or conscience decision. The term guilty is a judicial one and it is always applied to someone who has willingly and consciously broken the law.

Now in order to proceed here as to what is or is not biblical.. please do me one favor. Please show either of these two things:
1. We will be eternally judged according to or because of our sin nature
or
2. Where anyone in scripture is judged guilty by God while not knowing that what they did was wrong, ie. in ignorance.

I also noticed that you don't interact with any of the passages I have given especially where even Jesus stated that if one does not know they have committed sin they are NOT held as guilty. Nor did you interact with passages regarding the Law and ignorance.

Another interesting thing is to understand just what 'condemned' means? We know it is a judicial term regarding judgement of an offense that has been done. I find in scripture that we are appointed once to die and THEN the judgment..I guess my question to you is are you saying we are judged before the Judgment.

If so how can one be guilty of being able to sin but not having actually sinned themselves? The very term 'sinner' is specific in that it regards one who both has and is in sin.

As far as for Adam, he died spiritually(plus the sentence of death was placed upon him and all flesh), and yet, God communicated with him. Cain was spiritually dead, and yet God spoke to him. The rich man in hell was spiritually dead(of course), and he spoke with Father Abraham. All of these were under condemnation, were under guilt, and seperated from God(spiritual death), and yet they understood everything that God said.

Who said God can't communicate with those who are spiritually separated. However with all of these you quote they committed acts against God's command, and did so knowingly - sinned. This does not really enter into the debate in question.. more so the debate of "Does God deal with the unregenerate, and can they understand Him.

(lastly but just curious more than anything - you do realize the father Abraham is not a euphemism for God, right?)

 

[preacher4truth]

One can not be spiritually dead w/o condemnation. If one is spiritually dead, they are guilty. Furthermore, one can not be spiritually dead, and NOT a sinner. That is biblically impossible.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Exactly. The world is condemned already including all outside of Christ, and there is not one person who has not sinned, all being born in sin.

I couldn't believe the post you are referring to...well, nevermind, I actually can believe it.

 

[Allan]

...It seems to try to explain away inconsistencies in Augustinianism (while still embracing it due to the fact most of the modern church does) the phrases need to be redefined or excluded to make it work.

No.. because there is a distinction between the two views, and that view is guilt and 'being' a sinner, both of which we have already discussed.

Fact is, if a baby is formed a sinner due to Adam, they are dead and guilty,

You have a point here IF this is the argument you are wishing to debate.. but it is not. They are not 'sinners' nor are they guilty. They are born separated from God, not born sinners (those who sin), nor guilty (those who have been found to have broken the law).

That is the natural conclusion to Augustinianism hence the invention of infant baptism.

Agreed that would be 'one conclusion' IF we were discussing this position.

I would rather understand Scripture that states we were dead in our trespasses and sins. That is as straight and to the point as it gets...yet is brushed aside due to an RCC adopted position.

Again, you are not debating this position so your conclusion bears little merit to argument you set forth. But I do agree we (being sinners) ARE dead in our trespasses and sins. But we do note that all are dead/separated.

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

 

[Allan]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Exactly. The world is condemned already including all outside of Christ, and there is not one person who has not sinned, all being born in sin.

I couldn't believe the post you are referring to...well, nevermind, I actually can believe it.

Please note the passage does not state they 'were already condemned' but because of their rejection of only person and thing what can save them, they are condemned 'already' (before the judgment). Thus their condemnation is the result of rejection of the truth, same as seen in
2 Thes 2:10-12 "

2Th 2:10 ...; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And many other passages in like manner...

 

[Allan]

All good points. I agree.:thumbsup:


I'd love to have that actual quote if you know where it is. That would come in handy.

Here is the link...
Now regarding his view.. he holds that even infants are sinners and guilty but speaks to my view that they are not culpable and thus can not be judged.

And here is the last portion to part 1:

I want to close with this: what does Scripture teach about damnation? Turn to Revelation, chapter 20. This is important. This is the main point that I want you to get in this message tonight. Revelation, chapter 20: Scripture teaches--listen very carefully--Scripture teaches--and here's the summary statement and I'm going to show you how it comes through Scripture--teaches that men and women are saved by what? Grace. But damned by works. By works. Scripture teaches that all condemned sinners earned their eternal punishment by their sins.

How do I know that? Because whenever you go to the judgment seat, this is what you see: Revelation 20, verses 11 and 12. Here's the great, white throne, this is the final judgment of all the ungodly of all history, and the One sitting upon the throne from whose presence earth and heaven flood away and no place was found (for them, obviously), the great judge, God, has committed that judgment to Christ, it tells us in John 5. There is Christ, the great judge, on the throne, and verse 12, "I saw the dead, the great, the small standing before the throne and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged," listen to this. "from the things which were written in the books according to their deeds; and the sea gave up the dead which were in it and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them and they were judged every one of them according to their," what? "Deeds" or "works."

I'm going to say this again: Scripture always, always connects eternal condemnation to the sinner's deeds--works--always. In John 8:21 and 24, the most significant damning work, Jesus says, "Because you believe not in me, you will die in your sins and where I go, you'll never come." The greatest of all the sinners' evil works is unbelief, unbelief. And unbelief is always singled out as the primary damning sin. John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who doesn't obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Earlier in the chapter, he says, "You don't believe, you don't believe, and because you don't believe, you're condemned. You're condemned if you don't believe and when you don't believe, you don't obey."

And so there's a life of evil works that are recorded--the books record it. God has a complete record of every sin of every sinner who has ever lived and it is on the basis of those records that they will be condemned. It is the sins that sinners commit that constitute the record that is established against them, by which condemnation falls from the throne of God. Little children don't have that record. In Jonah 4:11: "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who don't know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" There are people there, God says, who deserve compassion because they don't know the difference--they don't know the difference between their right and left hand. He's speaking of those who are infants or those who are mentally incapable of understanding truth. God says they deserve compassion because of that condition.

In Deuteronomy 1:39, God talks about your little ones who have no knowledge of good or evil. There's a point in life when you don't have the knowledge of good or evil--you haven't reached that condition of accountability. Similarly, in Isaiah 7:16, it talks of "before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good," and so forth.

Infants who die, then, have never had anything written in the record because they've never committed the deeds--conscious deeds of rebellion and iniquity. God knows at what point they become accountable. Infants who die have been protected by God's providence from committing those deeds, those responsible acts of sin by which they would be condemned. And listen: there is no place in the Bible where judgment is based on any other grounds than the deeds of sin. It's true they are sinful, by nature. But the account against them that condemns them is their deeds. God doesn't charge people with actual sins until they commit them.

Now, listen. Salvation then is by grace completely apart from works. Damnation is by works completely apart from grace. Infants have no sinful works to fill the books and condemn them. So I say this, if a baby dies, that baby is elect. Instant heaven. Now, you know why I answered Larry's question the way I did.

Let me read you something in closing, written in 1907 by R. A. Webb. Listen to this: "If a dead infant were sent to hell on no other account than that of original sin, there would be a good reason to the divine mind for the judgment because sin is a reality, but the child's mind would be a perfect blank as to the reason of its suffering. Under such circumstances, it would know suffering, but it would have no understanding of the reason for its suffering. It could not tell itself why it was so awfully smitten and, consequently, the whole meaning and significance of its sufferings, being to it a conscious enigma, the very essence of the penalty would be absent, and justice would be disappointed, cheated of its validation."

Yes, children are born sinners, their death proves that, but never being able to understand the truth and therefore consciously reject it and choose rebellion, they have no record against them in the books of God and they then constitute a marvelous and vast opportunity for sovereign grace to operate, apart from any works at all.

So here's a final summary: all children who die before they reach the condition of accountability, by which they convincingly understand their sin and corruption and embrace the gospel by faith, are graciously saved eternally by God through the work of Jesus Christ, being elect by sovereign choice, innocent of willful sin, rebellion, and unbelief, by which works they would be justly condemned to eternal punishment. (Get the tape if you want that again). So, when an infant dies, he or she is elect to eternal salvation and eternal glory. So, dear one, if you have a little one that dies, rejoice! Count not your human loss; count your eternal gain. Count not that child as having lost, but having gained, having passed briefly through this life, untouched by the wicked world, only to enter into eternal glory and grace. The true sadness should be over those children of yours who live and reject the gospel. Don't sorrow over your children in heaven; sorrow over your children on earth, that they should come to Christ. This is your great responsibility, your great opportunity.

Here is the 2nd part to it

And from Tom Chillies; "What Happens to Children Who Die?" from here:

John Piper, after acknowledging the presence and importance of original sin, says that if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God’s will or God’s glory then that person’s sin would not remain—God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see. In response to Romans 1, which speaks of Gods revelation through nature as leaving those who have never heard the gospel without excuse, Piper says if a person did not have access to the revelation of God’s glory—did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it—then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment. He concludes:

The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure. Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God’s inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is the link...
Now regarding his view.. he holds that even infants are sinners and guilty but speaks to my view that they are not culpable and thus can not be judged.

And here is the last portion to part 1:


Here is the 2nd part to it

And from Tom Chillies; "What Happens to Children Who Die?" from here:

These are nice emotional sentiments, but they cannot undo romans 3:23....at conception babies are guilty sinners, having sinned in adam. They are guilty and condemned as all men are ...and need God's mercy and forgiveness to enter heaven.....they do not become sinners when they sin by their own experience.....those are additional sins for sure....but they are sinners from conception.

Now listen to what I say. God has predestined all He wills into salvation, including those in infancy. That salvation is by his sovereign choice through grace alone. Though all infants deserve eternal judgment because of their guilt and corruption, their sins were paid for by the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross in which He bore the wrath of God, not only for all who could believe, but for all who could not believe. I really do believe that only those who understand true reformed theology can grasp the redemption of little ones, which fits so beautifully because it's all of sovereignty and it's all of grace.

He does not know the extent of God's election...He has no verse that says it extends to all,some, none...he is emotionally speculating.....We are better served to leave this to God and His decree.....

All ELECT infants dying in infancy......there can be no issue taken with this statement.
Sins done in ignorance are still sins nonetheless.....

 

[Winman]

Yes, children are born sinners, their death proves that,

MacArthur was doing alright until he said this. Is it necessarily true that one physically (not spiritually) dies because they are a sinner?

When Adam and Eve sinned, God made skins to cover them. It is assumed God had to kill an innocent animal(s) to clothe them. Did the animal commit sin? NO. The animal(s) died as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam and Eve's sin.

When Adam and Eve sinned, it brought disorder and chaos into the physical world. This introduced disorders and disease. Many children die before birth because of this, not because of any sin they have committed. Paul proves that children, or at least unborn children have committed no sin in Rom 9:11.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

MacArthur is correct, being a "sinner" is a term of judgment.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

MacArthur is also correct that men are only judged according to their works, and not their nature. I have been saying this for two years here at BB.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 9:11 says Esau and Jacob had DONE neither good or evil, therefore they cannot be judged sinners. If a baby dies before being born, it is not a sinner, and it's death does not prove it is a sinner, the baby died as a consequence of the chaos and disorder sin brought into the world.

David's child died very soon after being born, he had committed no sin and was not a sinner. The baby died as a consequence of David's sin, not his own.

Abel died as a consequence of Cain's sin, not his own. I am not saying that Abel was not a sinner like all of us, but his death was a consequence of Cain's sin, not his own.

I am glad to see MacArthur is putting his Reformed books down and reading the Bible, he quoted many of the same verses (Deut 1:39, Jon 4:11) that I have been showing here for 2 years.

If he keeps studying, he will find the scriptures show man is born spiritually alive, not dead.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

If we are born dead and separated from God, then it could never be said we are alive AGAIN. But this is exactly what Jesus himself said.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Give MacArthur a few more years, and maybe he will tell you what I am telling you now.

 

[Iconoclast]

MacArthur was doing alright until he said this. Is it necessarily true that one physically (not spiritually) dies because they are a sinner?

When Adam and Eve sinned, God made skins to cover them. It is assumed God had to kill an innocent animal(s) to clothe them. Did the animal commit sin? NO. The animal(s) died as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam and Eve's sin.

When Adam and Eve sinned, it brought disorder and chaos into the physical world. This introduced disorders and disease. Many children die before birth because of this, not because of any sin they have committed. Paul proves that children, or at least unborn children have committed no sin in Rom 9:11.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

MacArthur is correct, being a "sinner" is a term of judgment.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

MacArthur is also correct that men are only judged according to their works, and not their nature. I have been saying this for two years here at BB.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 9:11 says Esau and Jacob had DONE neither good or evil, therefore they cannot be judged sinners. If a baby dies before being born, it is not a sinner, and it's death does not prove it is a sinner, the baby died as a consequence of the chaos and disorder sin brought into the world.

David's child died very soon after being born, he had committed no sin and was not a sinner. The baby died as a consequence of David's sin, not his own.

Abel died as a consequence of Cain's sin, not his own. I am not saying that Abel was not a sinner like all of us, but his death was a consequence of Cain's sin, not his own.

I am glad to see MacArthur is putting his Reformed books down and reading the Bible, he quoted many of the same verses (Deut 1:39, Jon 4:11) that I have been showing here for 2 years.

If he keeps studying, he will find the scriptures show man is born spiritually alive, not dead.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

If we are born dead and separated from God, then it could never be said we are alive AGAIN. But this is exactly what Jesus himself said.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Give MacArthur a few more years, and maybe he will tell you what I am telling you now.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: nope....as you mis-use every verse you just posted...you have each one wrong......but...nice consistency:thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: nope....as you mis-use every verse you just posted...you have each one wrong......but...nice consistency:thumbsup:

Is this an example of one of those profitable posts you always mention?

Of course you think they are wrong, you start with a false presupposition everything else will seem equally wrong.

From Adam on, eat of the tree, you will surely die...wages of sin is death...sin sprang to life and I died...you were dead in your trespasses...Sin when it is grown gives birth to death...etc. Many verses stating precisely when we die, not ONE that says we died in Adam. Fact. You must read between the lines to arrive at your position (as with the majority of your doctrine).

 

[Winman]

Is this an example of one of those profitable posts you always mention?

Of course you think they are wrong, you start with a false presupposition everything else will seem equally wrong.

From Adam on, eat of the tree, you will surely die...wages of sin is death...sin sprang to life and I died...you were dead in your trespasses...Sin when it is grown gives birth to death...etc. Many verses stating precisely when we die, not ONE that says we died in Adam. Fact. You must read between the lines to arrive at your position (as with the majority of your doctrine).

Yes, you hear folks say all sorts of false things like, "all men sinned in Adam" and then they quote 1 Cor 15:22 as their proof text.

This verse does not say men sinned in Adam, it says in Adam all die. It is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the entire theme of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of our physical bodies.

This is the one and only time in all of scripture that the term "in Adam" is used (look for yourself). But folks like Icon take it out of context and abuse it to attempt to proof text false doctrine.

At least MacArthur is starting to come around, so I guess there is hope for some.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is this an example of one of those profitable posts you always mention?

Of course you think they are wrong, you start with a false presupposition everything else will seem equally wrong.

From Adam on, eat of the tree, you will surely die...wages of sin is death...sin sprang to life and I died...you were dead in your trespasses...Sin when it is grown gives birth to death...etc. Many verses stating precisely when we die, not ONE that says we died in Adam. Fact. You must read between the lines to arrive at your position (as with the majority of your doctrine).

I have posted three times to you in particular that romans 3 :23 shows we All died at the moment Adam died........you reject it.....as for winman....he posts the same verses..woefully out of context.....he does it 98 out of 100 times.
Many have pointed it out to him....but he persists as you do with a complete misunderstanding of Romans 5.
You cannot stand when you see the truth of Romans 5.....you do mental gymnastics to avoid the clear teaching...

Is this an example of one of those profitable posts you always mention?

An example of a profitable post are the ones where I quote a bible teacher that gives line upon line of solid biblical teaching.....you cannot answer the teaching at all...not even close....so what do you do....your usual MO is a one line quip........like ...looks like philosophy here...or...a debate fallacy...or then there is your old stand by...non sequitor....

When you are challenged on your posts...you hide away like an ostritch after you post your little one line smart aleck kind of sentence. I think you can offer much more...but you would rather spend your time pleading for a moderator to censor those you do not agree with.

Read through your old posts...lets say the last 50-75...tell me i am wrong!

I do not always agree with Allan...and yet, he will offer many solid thoughts that are based in truth.....he responds with many good verses ...in context..so that anyone who can read the exchange can weigh it out.

Look at Allans responses...then look at how you respond

I have my share of bad posts...yes, for sure...but until you post anything substantial...you have lost credibility.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, you hear folks say all sorts of false things like, "all men sinned in Adam" and then they quote 1 Cor 15:22 as their proof text.

This verse does not say men sinned in Adam, it says in Adam all die. It is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the entire theme of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of our physical bodies.

This is the one and only time in all of scripture that the term "in Adam" is used (look for yourself). But folks like Icon take it out of context and abuse it to attempt to proof text false doctrine.

At least MacArthur is starting to come around, so I guess there is hope for some.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 3:23

This has been posted several times, but you ignore it..Others however read and learn from the scripture

Vincent's Word Studies
Have sinned (ἥμαρτον)

Aorist tense: sinned, looking back to a thing definitely past - the historic occurrence of sin.
And come short (ὑστεροῦνται)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For all have sinned,.... This is the general character of all mankind; all have sinned in Adam, are guilty by his sin, polluted with it, and condemned for it; all are sinners in themselves, and by their own actual transgressions; this is the case of the whole world, and of all the men in it; not only of the Gentiles, but of the Jews, and the more righteous among them: hence there is no difference in the state and condition of men by nature; nor is there any reason from and in themselves, why God saves one and not another; nor any room to despair of the grace and righteousness of Christ, on account of persons being, in their own view, the worst of sinners:

Wesley's Notes
3:23 For all have sinned - In Adam, and in their own persons; by a sinful nature, sinful tempers, and sinful actions. And are fallen short of the glory of God - The supreme end of man; short of his image on earth, and the enjoyment of him in heaven.

........................

 

[Winman]

winman....he posts the same verses..woefully out of context.....he does it 98 out of 100 times.

Right. But your beloved John MacArthur quotes the very same scripture and makes the very same arguments I have presented here for over 2 years.

And so there's a life of evil works that are recorded--the books record it. God has a complete record of every sin of every sinner who has ever lived and it is on the basis of those records that they will be condemned. It is the sins that sinners commit that constitute the record that is established against them, by which condemnation falls from the throne of God. Little children don't have that record. In Jonah 4:11: "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who don't know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?" There are people there, God says, who deserve compassion because they don't know the difference--they don't know the difference between their right and left hand. He's speaking of those who are infants or those who are mentally incapable of understanding truth. God says they deserve compassion because of that condition.

In Deuteronomy 1:39, God talks about your little ones who have no knowledge of good or evil. There's a point in life when you don't have the knowledge of good or evil--you haven't reached that condition of accountability. Similarly, in Isaiah 7:16, it talks of "before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good," and so forth.

Infants who die, then, have never had anything written in the record because they've never committed the deeds--conscious deeds of rebellion and iniquity. God knows at what point they become accountable. Infants who die have been protected by God's providence from committing those deeds, those responsible acts of sin by which they would be condemned. And listen: there is no place in the Bible where judgment is based on any other grounds than the deeds of sin. It's true they are sinful, by nature. But the account against them that condemns them is their deeds. God doesn't charge people with actual sins until they commit them.

I have shown all of these verses many times, Jon 4:11, Isa 7:16, Deut 1:39, and many others over the past 2 1/2 years and said that children are not held accountable for sin. I have argued as MacArthur agrees that no one is born a sinner, but becomes a sinner when they actually sin.

You are too smart to listen to a regular Christian like me, but you are all ears when one of your beloved Reformed authors speaks.

MacArthur is getting there, but he is not quite there yet. Like Spurgeon, he sees scripture does not support Reformed theology and so compromises, yet tries to maintain his theology. Perhaps he will do better than Spurgeon and completely come out of false doctrine, but that is doubtful. He contradicts himself and says children are born sinners, but also says no one is a sinner until they actually commit sin. Contradiction, the trademark of Calvinism.

Maybe someday you will see scripture does not agree with Reformed theology, but I am not going to hold my breath.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

You are too smart to listen to a regular Christian like me, but you are all ears when one of your beloved Reformed authors speaks.

MacArthur is getting there, but he is not quite there yet. Like Spurgeon, he sees scripture does not support Reformed theology and so compromises, yet tries to maintain his theology. Perhaps he will do better than Spurgeon and completely come out of false doctrine, but that is doubtful. He contradicts himself and says children are born sinners, but also says no one is a sinner until they actually commit sin. Contradiction, the trademark of Calvinism.

Maybe someday you will see scripture does not agree with Reformed theology, but I am not going to hold my breath.

I like Spurgeon and macarthur quite a bit,and have learned much from both men ,and will continue to learn more from them both.

As much as I like them...they are both wrong here...without biblical warrant.

You picked up on the contradiction.....that is because mentally and spiritually, they see the scriptural truth of all being dead in adam....but because we speak of infants/children....they answer emotionally and go off.

Winman...in the other thread.....you believe i mis-use 1cor 15...but that is because you fail to see that natural men...are born in adam{first death} and if they remain in that condition....they die in adam{going into second death} at the white throne.....natural men...do not "put Themself" in adam...they are born physically alive, mentally alert, but spiritually dead....

They remain in the realm of death,unless God regenerates them...that is unless God has elected them to salvation.

Maybe someday you will see scripture does not agree with Reformed theology, but I am not going to hold my breath.

This is a wise move on your part{not holding your breath}...for that day will never come.....in fact ....if I waver on this...i will instruct my sons to shoot me...before I become a complete apostate...so that my soul might be saved......but it will not happen anytime soon...I can assure you!

 

[psalms109:31]

Spiritually dead and not guilty, that is ridiculous. The only way we can be Spiritually alive and not guilty is in Jesus Christ. Ours sins and lawless acts He will remember no more.

Jesus tells us Satan is the deceiver and Satan is the murderer from the beginning and Peter says some how people misunderstand Paul teaching to their own destruction like they do with other scriptures.

We have been following the deceiver murderer from the the beginning.

Satan and King Tyre which is referring to man they were blameless the day they were created until wickedness was found in them Lucifer and King Tyre who is us.

Adam and Eve was good, created blameless and had no evil thoughts in them until the serpent the deceiver, the liar, the murderer gave them one.

We and the angels are free agents and are responsible for our action even one's that did not come from ourselves but who we follow.

We can go on and believe the liar, the deceiver, the murderer. We are following one who's only desire is to murderer us and see our destruction.

God through Jesus has given us a way out, through Jesus He has placed life and death before us. To trust in Jesus and live by coming to Him eat of His flesh drink of His blood or I will perish and continue to destruction where I have been headed from the beginning.

We are responsible free agents.

The murderer is Satan and salvation is in Jesus alone.

1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

 

[convicted1]

Spiritually dead and not guilty, that is ridiculous. The only way we can be Spiritually alive and not guilty is in Jesus Christ. Ours sins and lawless acts He will remember no more.

Jesus tells us Satan is the deceiver and Satan is the murderer from the beginning and Peter says some how people misunderstand Paul teaching to their own destruction like they do with other scriptures.

We have been following the deceiver murderer from the the beginning.

Satan and King Tyre which is referring to man they were blameless the day they were created until wickedness was found in them Lucifer and King Tyre who is us.

Adam and Eve was good, created blameless and had no evil thoughts in them until the serpent the deceiver, the liar, the murderer gave them one.

We and the angels are free agents and are responsible for our action even one's that did not come from ourselves but who we follow.

We can go on and believe the liar, the deceiver, the murderer. We are following one who's only desire is to murderer us and see our destruction.

God through Jesus has given us a way out, through Jesus He has placed life and death before us. To trust in Jesus and live by coming to Him eat of His flesh drink of His blood or I will perish and continue to destruction where I have been headed from the beginning.

We are responsible free agents.

The murderer is Satan and salvation is in Jesus alone.

1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

***takes deep breath***

Another breath of fresh air post, Brother.

You know you might been in trouble on here since I am agreeing with you.

 

[convicted1]

Thats the way I understand it. It seems to try to explain away inconsistencies in Augustinianism (while still embracing it due to the fact most of the modern church does) the phrases need to be redefined or excluded to make it work. Fact is, if a baby is formed a sinner due to Adam, they are dead and guilty, and unless the gospel is delivered through the umbilical cord and understood, the baby perishes. That is the natural conclusion to Augustinianism hence the invention of infant baptism. I would rather understand Scripture that states we were dead in our trespasses and sins. That is as straight and to the point as it gets...yet is brushed aside due to an RCC adopted position.

First off, you'd better duck if you are in agreement with me....:smilewinkgrin:

The problem is, that when the bible speaks of mankind, there are two men that it does refer to; the inner man/soul, and the outer man/physical body. The physical is in Adam, and it will die and moulder back to the dust whether it be of a saint or sinner. Nothing will cause it to not die. When Adam sinned, the curse was placed upon the fleshly man. Now, the soul comes from God. Look at this passage that gets used, misused, and abused:

Psalm 51
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Look at all the "my", "mine" and "I" that David uses in this passage. He then goes on to write in verse five what he did. What is conceived in conception? It's the fleshly man/physical body, and God then places a soul in that conceived body. The soul has nothing to do with conception, and therefore, it has nothing to do with Adam's sin. It's when we knowingly and willfully sin against God, that He accounts/imputes sin unto us, and then we die spiritually. If the soul is created dead, then God would be the Author of sin, which He is not.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

First off, you'd better duck if you are in agreement with me....:smilewinkgrin:

The problem is, that when the bible speaks of mankind, there are two men that it does refer to; the inner man/soul, and the outer man/physical body. The physical is in Adam, and it will die and moulder back to the dust whether it be of a saint or sinner. Nothing will cause it to not die. When Adam sinned, the curse was placed upon the fleshly man. Now, the soul comes from God. Look at this passage that gets used, misused, and abused:



Look at all the "my", "mine" and "I" that David uses in this passage. He then goes on to write in verse five what he did. What is conceived in conception? It's the fleshly man/physical body, and God then places a soul in that conceived body. The soul has nothing to do with conception, and therefore, it has nothing to do with Adam's sin. It's when we knowingly and willfully sin against God, that He accounts/imputes sin unto us, and then we die spiritually. If the soul is created dead, then God would be the Author of sin, which He is not.

That's a pretty good post there, bro.