Spiritually dead, yet not guilty?

[Winman]

Winman,


I like Spurgeon and macarthur quite a bit,and have learned much from both men ,and will continue to learn more from them both.

As much as I like them...they are both wrong here...without biblical warrant.

No, this is one of the times when they are accurate and scriptural.

You picked up on the contradiction.....that is because mentally and spiritually, they see the scriptural truth of all being dead in adam....but because we speak of infants/children....they answer emotionally and go off.

All Calvinists contradict themselves. What MacArthur saw was that the scriptures do not teach that infants and small children are sinners, but he still tries to maintain his belief in original sin, an absolute necessity for Calvinism. Without OS you are sunk. Nevertheless, he cannot deny scripture that clearly shows lttle children have no knowledge between good and evil and therefore cannot be judged as sinners. And if you cannot be judged as a sinner, then you are not a sinner.

MacArthur also realized that scripture teaches a man is judged for his works, whether good or evil, not the nature he was born with and the potential to sin. Every man has the potential to do any evil, but men retain free will and do not choose to do every evil. You have the potential to rob a bank, but you have chosen not to do so, so you are not utterly enslaved and compelled to always sin.

Winman...in the other thread.....you believe i mis-use 1cor 15...but that is because you fail to see that natural men...are born in adam{first death} and if they remain in that condition....they die in adam{going into second death} at the white throne.....natural men...do not "put Themself" in adam...they are born physically alive, mentally alert, but spiritually dead....

They remain in the realm of death,unless God regenerates them...that is unless God has elected them to salvation.

And you cannot distinguish when the scriptures are speaking of physical death and spiritual death. 1 Cor. 15 is not speaking of spiritual death at all, the entire chapter is speaking of physical death and the resurrection of our physical bodies. Try reading the Bible and quit listening to Reformed preachers who teach error, and you will see for yourself.

As Willis correctly stated, we inherit our bodies from our parents. We inherited our cursed physical body from Adam, thus corruption and death. This is why infants die, not because they are sinners, they are not. But our spirit comes directly from God, numerous scriptures teach this. We are not born spiritually dead, but upright (Ecc 7:29).

This is a wise move on your part{not holding your breath}...for that day will never come.....in fact ....if I waver on this...i will instruct my sons to shoot me...before I become a complete apostate...so that my soul might be saved......but it will not happen anytime soon...I can assure you!

Trust me, I can see you coming from ten miles away. I know you will not change anytime soon. You are one who heaps teachers to himself having itching ears. Some folks believe false doctrine because they are deceived, others believe false doctrine because they desire to.

 

[Skandelon]

Allan,

Thanks for posting that. I especially liked this part:

In John 8:21 and 24, the most significant damning work, Jesus says, "Because you believe not in me, you will die in your sins and where I go, you'll never come." The greatest of all the sinners' evil works is unbelief, unbelief. And unbelief is always singled out as the primary damning sin. John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who doesn't obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Earlier in the chapter, he says, "You don't believe, you don't believe, and because you don't believe, you're condemned. You're condemned if you don't believe and when you don't believe, you don't obey."

As I have had Calvinists here rail on me for saying virtually the exact same thing.

 

[webdog]

I have posted three times to you in particular that romans 3 :23 shows we All died at the moment Adam died........you reject it.....as for winman....he posts the same verses..woefully out of context.....he does it 98 out of 100 times.
Many have pointed it out to him....but he persists as you do with a complete misunderstanding of Romans 5.
You cannot stand when you see the truth of Romans 5.....you do mental gymnastics to avoid the clear teaching...

I provide direct scriptures when we die...and I'm the one doing gymnastics? You have one scripture where you have to eisegete and a couple of poetic Psalms. Thats it. Try again...

An example of a profitable post are the ones where I quote a bible teacher that gives line upon line of solid biblical teaching.....you cannot answer the teaching at all...not even close....so what do you do....your usual MO is a one line quip........like ...looks like philosophy here...or...a debate fallacy...or then there is your old stand by...non sequitor....

I see, so questioning the salvation of others then copying and pasting the work of others is a profitable post. Got it.

When you are challenged on your posts...you hide away like an ostritch after you post your little one line smart aleck kind of sentence. I think you can offer much more...but you would rather spend your time pleading for a moderator to censor those you do not agree with.

Besides being completely untrue, your moderator comment is completely science fiction, kind of like most of your theology.

Read through your old posts...lets say the last 50-75...tell me i am wrong!

You are wrong.

I do not always agree with Allan...and yet, he will offer many solid thoughts that are based in truth.....he responds with many good verses ...in context..so that anyone who can read the exchange can weigh it out.

I agree, Allan is a lot more patient dealing with your kind.

Look at Allans responses...then look at how you respond

Why don't you just worry about how you respond.

I have my share of bad posts...yes, for sure...but until you post anything substantial...you have lost credibility.

coming from you, means absolutely nothing. I won't be losing any sleep. Fact is you don't like to be called out in your troll-like posts, and when you are you resort to juvenile responses.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, this is one of the times when they are accurate and scriptural.



All Calvinists contradict themselves. What MacArthur saw was that the scriptures do not teach that infants and small children are sinners, but he still tries to maintain his belief in original sin, an absolute necessity for Calvinism. Without OS you are sunk. Nevertheless, he cannot deny scripture that clearly shows lttle children have no knowledge between good and evil and therefore cannot be judged as sinners. And if you cannot be judged as a sinner, then you are not a sinner.

MacArthur also realized that scripture teaches a man is judged for his works, whether good or evil, not the nature he was born with and the potential to sin. Every man has the potential to do any evil, but men retain free will and do not choose to do every evil. You have the potential to rob a bank, but you have chosen not to do so, so you are not utterly enslaved and compelled to always sin.



And you cannot distinguish when the scriptures are speaking of physical death and spiritual death. 1 Cor. 15 is not speaking of spiritual death at all, the entire chapter is speaking of physical death and the resurrection of our physical bodies. Try reading the Bible and quit listening to Reformed preachers who teach error, and you will see for yourself.

As Willis correctly stated, we inherit our bodies from our parents. We inherited our cursed physical body from Adam, thus corruption and death. This is why infants die, not because they are sinners, they are not. But our spirit comes directly from God, numerous scriptures teach this. We are not born spiritually dead, but upright (Ecc 7:29).



Trust me, I can see you coming from ten miles away. I know you will not change anytime soon. You are one who heaps teachers to himself having itching ears. Some folks believe false doctrine because they are deceived, others believe false doctrine because they desire to.

This is infested with error,,,like a computer gets a virus....
you mis-use eccl7:29...once again:laugh::laugh: showing exactly the problem

Trust me, I can see you coming from ten miles away. I know you will not change anytime soon. You are one who heaps teachers to himself having itching ears. Some folks believe false doctrine because they are deceived, others believe false doctrine because they desire to

If I post this....several cry to a moderator....he is questioning someones salvation:laugh:
Winman......one of us is dead wrong:thumbs: I know who it is...lol

 

[Iconoclast]

I provide direct scriptures when we die...and I'm the one doing gymnastics? You have one scripture where you have to eisegete and a couple of poetic Psalms. Thats it. Try again...

Many scriptures that you never answer

I see, so questioning the salvation of others then copying and pasting the work of others is a profitable post. Got it.

The scripture warns of false brethren...calling attention to those verses does not mean claiming to know someones heart...you and your two accomplices can keep trying to infer or speculate about what I post.....but you know it is true.


Besides being completely untrue, your moderator comment is completely science fiction, kind of like most of your theology.

well...since you deny romans 3:23,5:12-21....as far as understanding them,and going off on your augustine rant....of course you will claim my theology is off....you cannot welcome it while holding on to your error



You are wrong.

that is why this is a debate site..one of us is wrong


I agree, Allan is a lot more patient dealing with your kind.

Allan is smooth.....unlike you,or I!......what kind is that??? someone who you cannot answer?


Why don't you just worry about how you respond.


coming from you, means absolutely nothing. I won't be losing any sleep. Fact is you don't like to be called out in your troll-like posts, and when you are you resort to juvenile responses.

yes...not mature like you calling me a troll...lol good one!
:laugh: sure webdog.....

 

[preacher4truth]

Persons outside of Christ are condemned already. Only belief in Christ (saving belief via the gift of faith) will bring them to the knowledge of the truth that they are His sheep.

So to be clear, all are already condemned, already on their way to eternal damnation prior to ever hearing about Christ, yet all of His sheep will come to Him.

It's sad to see these in here (some claiming to be pastors) stating others are only lost/condemned on way to hell after rejecting Christ. Jesus and the Scriptures teach otherwise. In addition the teaching of those represented above is false teaching 100%.

The world, the entire world, excluding the sheep are condemned already, the only remedy being salvation through Christ. Some of you will never see the truth in this and get it right. John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God' tells us they are already condemned which is the state NOW of all outside of Christ. The passage is clearly teaching that all who have not yet believed are already now condemned, not BECAUSE they didn't believe as some here misinterpret this passage, which is the entire reason Christ came...to save His sheep who were lost. The passage again clearly states they are already condemned. Also, only the elect will believe; 2 Timothy 2:8-10; Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Deal with it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Persons outside of Christ are condemned already. Only belief in Christ (saving belief via the gift of faith) will bring them to the knowledge of the truth that they are His sheep.

So to be clear, all are already condemned, already on their way to eternal damnation prior to ever hearing about Christ, yet all of His sheep will come to Him.

It's sad to see these in here (some claiming to be pastors) stating others are only lost/condemned on way to hell after rejecting Christ. Jesus and the Scriptures teach otherwise. In addition the teaching of those represented above is false teaching 100%.

The world, the entire world, excluding the sheep are condemned already, the only remedy being salvation through Christ. Some of you will never see the truth in this and get it right. John 3:18 tells us they are already condemned which is the state NOW of all outside of Christ. The passage is clearly teaching that all who have not yet believed are already now condemned, not BECAUSE they didn't believe as some here misinterpret this passage, which is the entire reason Christ came...to save His sheep who were lost. The passage again clearly states they are already condemned. Also, only the elect will believe; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Deal with it.

You would think it is as clear as it appears to be.The historic church has always believed this.Since doctrine ,cathechisms, confessions,have been laid aside....novelties, false teaching, the revived ideas of finney,rush in to take the place of truth:wavey::thumbsup:

 

[preacher4truth]

You would think it is as clear as it appears to be.The historic church has always believed this.Since doctrine ,cathechisms, confessions,have been laid aside....novelties, false teaching, the revived ideas of finney,rush in to take the place of truth:wavey::thumbsup:

I await the rush of those against 2 Timothy 2:8-10 to use the age old excuse about 'knowing who the elect are' which neither Paul, nor any other knows.

Secondly, their rejection of 'none righteous' &c in Romans 3, their rationalizing away of Romans 5 for the sake of man and his false alleged goodness, while grasping the word 'all' to mean all, or each and every single person soteriologically shows you in a crystal clear manner the anthropocentric basis of their theology.

 

[webdog]

yes...not mature like you calling me a troll...lol good one!
:laugh: sure webdog.....

Learn to use the quote function properly. For someone always saying others don't understand the deeper things of Scripture when you cannot even grasp a simple concept in this forum doesn't lend much credibility to your argument. Fact is in 20 something thousand posts your "proof texts" have been dealt with enough times to count. Its not that I reject Scripture, or don't understand it..for th umpteenth hundred times, I reject YOUR understanding of it. Neither you nor Augustine are immutible. Even to imply false brethern are those who reject YOUR theology speaks volumes and supports those beside myself who are constantly calling you out for the questioning the salvation of others, a violation of board rules you constantly get away with. Don't like it? Tough...stop doing it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Learn to use the quote function properly. For someone always saying others don't understand the deeper things of Scripture when you cannot even grasp a simple concept in this forum doesn't lend much credibility to your argument. something thousand posts enough times to counyour "proof texts" have been dealt with t. Its not that I reject Scripture, or don't understand it..for th umpteenth hundreFact is in 20 d times, I reject YOUR understanding of it. Neither you nor Augustine are immutible. Even to imply false brethern are those who reject YOUR theology speaks volumes and supports those beside myself who are constantly calling you out for the questioning the salvation of others, a violation of board rules you constantly get away with. Don't like it? Tough...stop doing it.

This is the same whining you have been doing...since you were temporarily banned.....

The reality is I have not named any person and said they are unsaved.
there are dozens of verses that warn against tares among the wheat, false brethren, about false professors...and warnings given....

To bring them up is valid. This might be a news flash for you......but not everyone who says Jesus....is a christian.....{of course, everyone on BB is a believer, they said they were when they signed up,right}

So, you have open theists, NPP, and all manner of heretical ideas, being put forth as orthodox.....

For someone always saying others don't understand the deeper things of Scripture

Could you show where I have said this??? Talebearing is a sin. If you cannot show it...repent.

Learn to use the quote function properly

i was not looking to quote something....just to answer...

when you cannot even grasp a simple concept in this forum doesn't lend much credibility to your argument

the verses I offer...that you dismiss as proof texting.....or the best was when I offered you romans 3:23 ....I quoted from a greek teacher, the exact language....you said it was eisegesis:laugh::laugh: the verses I offer are what is credible. You are critical, because you cannot answer to the verses...or the links, or the quotes offered......saying you have answered, and actually answering are two different things!

What I would describe as an answer is taking the quote and answering specifically what you agreed with, or do not agree with....

again ....I will use Allan....he quotes from a link, or comment...shows he read it, then responds with either verses, or a link of his own.

your "proof texts" have been dealt with

Not once that i have seen...maybe i missed this??? To be honest you cannot when you start with such a wrong premise as saying each man is born alive spiritually......you will never come to truth...

have you read Augustine???? You mention his name alot...to a certain extent I see why you do it...to just use his name that is linked to OS.
i am not that familiar with his writings, or that many of what are called the church fathers...except when they are quoted.
I am leary of many of them, but nevertheless they are part of church history.

What I find amusing is how you and others just cast off wholesale many of the historic persons who offered teaching as if....THEY NEVER READ THE BIBLE. Only you have come up with these ...new ideas....
No wonder you and others do not like when I offer historic teaching,quotes and links.....In this past month or so...I have tangled with several people in here....dude, seeking truth, you, of course benny.... and then Michael wrenn.

after all the emotion, and charges against each other, I was pm..ing.. Michael Wrenn....we came to a conclusion that we could keep on being enemies, and getting personal,and attacking...or we could seek to work on understanding just where we are......

he looks back to the anabaptists...more than I would....however I respect some of them..as being a baptist..they were persecuted by both rome,and the protestants.....I respect them for standing for baptist teaching, although they did have much error , that did need correction.

I am not sure if you want that kind of understanding..{you know...with dealing with My kind....was that the phrase??

If you want to remain hostile, critical, smug, and whatever else...that is up to you. I can deal with whatever way you want to go....not a problem.
If you would like to see things improve...that is up to you also.

You know as I have posted to you before...I will always respond to your dangerous ideas a false view of romans 5.....if you look back...do you see what else if anything I have confronted you on.....
You seem critical of all my theology...or as you say{ my view of my theology}
I can defend it biblically...I have not seen anything you posted that even causes me to flinch on anything I post biblically. When you call me names,and so on...that shows me you are out of theological bullets, and are just reduced to spitting and cursing---metaphorically speaking.

Whatever way you want to proceed is okay with me.:thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

It's sad to see these in here (some claiming to be pastors) stating others are only lost/condemned on way to hell after rejecting Christ.

You would think it is as clear as it appears to be....

Who on earth is saying that 'others are only lost...after rejecting Christ?' Sounds like another straw-man attack to me.

 

[Yeshua1]

I await the rush of those against 2 Timothy 2:8-10 to use the age old excuse about 'knowing who the elect are' which neither Paul, nor any other knows.

Secondly, their rejection of 'none righteous' &c in Romans 3, their rationalizing away of Romans 5 for the sake of man and his false alleged goodness, while grasping the word 'all' to mean all, or each and every single person soteriologically shows you in a crystal clear manner the anthropocentric basis of their theology.

even IF we were able to perfectly keep the law as jesus did, which NONE are able to, we would STILL be in debt to the Lord as being found "in Adam"...

perfect living keeps the sin debt from accrueing interest to ourspiritual account owed God, but still owe the initial debt!

 

[preacher4truth]

even IF we were able to perfectly keep the law as jesus did, which NONE are able to, we would STILL be in debt to the Lord as being found "in Adam"...

perfect living keeps the sin debt from accrueing interest to ourspiritual account owed God, but still owe the initial debt!

I find it amusing the previous post to yours, as it's well known that others on the BB have stated people are only going to hell for rejecting Christ. Argument after argument has been raised to defend their position, to which others and myself have come against this with the fact man is already lost right now, concerning those outside of Christ.

Anyhow.... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


So, what a strawman mess he brings up concerning me. The incessant game of 'pretend and prove it' which I'll take a pass on. When one does prove it, the facts are denied, it's the same old worn out song and dance and 'merry go round' that I'm glad to not be a part of with him.

Several on here know for a fact what I've stated isn't a strawman. It's been mentioned on here time and again. Someone needs to go sift through some archives and open his eyes.

...like I just made this up.

Nonetheless overlooking the nonsense, you're correct Yeshua1, no one can keep the Law, and it's being given shows the lost state of man.

 

[Iconoclast]

Who on earth is saying that 'others are only lost...after rejecting Christ?' Sounds like another straw-man attack to me.

Was it you who posted something to the effect that only unbelief sends men to hell????

The world is condemned already......if Jesus does not save them they perish.

They perish because of sin.....any and all sin...not just unbelief.

 

[preacher4truth]

Who on earth is saying that 'others are only lost...after rejecting Christ?' Sounds like another straw-man attack to me.

First of all note I never stated what you are saying. Go reread what I actually said. :smilewinkgrin:

See? There ya go.

Actually read the quotes of others you use against them to no avail. OK?

The thing is you've constructed a perfect strawman, having had much practice. In other words, nothing I said is represented in your post, you've assumed and completely misrepresented me.

BTW, strawman is not hyphenated, as in the term used in debating. You should've known this since you claim yourself to be the debater extraordonaire.

:wavey:


When you represent me accurately, then we'll debate.

Well, on second thought, I'll pass. :love2: :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

Was it you who posted something to the effect that only unbelief sends men to hell????

Actually that was John Calvin. He wrote, "No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief."

I agree with Calvin on this point.

The world is condemned already......if Jesus does not save them they perish.

No one disagrees with this, but given what Christ HAS provided, no one dies for lack of atonement or provision, "they perish because they refused to accept the truth and so be saved." - Paul

 

[preacher4truth]

Was it you who posted something to the effect that only unbelief sends men to hell????

The world is condemned already......if Jesus does not save them they perish.

They perish because of sin.....any and all sin...not just unbelief.

Exactly. This truth has been stated against numerous times on the BB.

No strawman argument on my part, and no 'attack' either, as the added term was used with 'incendiary' intent, and my words and statement is in fact representative of the truth.

:wavey:

 

[preacher4truth]

No one disagrees with this, but given what Christ HAS provided, no one dies for lack of atonement or provision, "they perish because they refused to accept the truth and so be saved." - Paul

The red is a strawman.

 

[jbh28]

people have the penalty of hell because of their sin. Otherwise, Christ dieing on the cross would condem people which would violate John 3:17-18.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
(John 3:17-18 ESV)

Now its true that people go to hell because they don't believe, but the reason they believing/not believing is of any importance is because they are a sinner and deserve hell.

 

[Skandelon]

people have the penalty of hell because of their sin. Otherwise, Christ dieing on the cross would condem people which would violate John 3:17-18.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
(John 3:17-18 ESV)

Let me just make a little adjustment and then my point will be made:

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Question: Why does he stand under wrath and condemnation now?

Answer: Because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Question: When will he not be condemned anymore?

Answer: When he believes in the name of the only Son of God.

Question: What if he never believes?

Answer: He will die under condemnation.

Question: If he dies condemned, will it be because atonement wasn't provided for him?

Answer: No, it will be because he did not believe in the name of the only Son of God

Question: If he dies condemned will it be because God didn't love him or provide all he needed to be reconciled to God?

Answer: No, it will be because he did not believe in the name of the only Son of God.

ETC.