Spurgeon disproves Calvinism

[Reformed]

Who's slandering? Slandering is accusing him of wrong doing for which he is not guilty of. If you mean i was slandering him by my busy misspelling ( or was it spell checker) that's wrong.

You do not even know what slander is. Slander is making false and damaging statements against someone. Your inane OP attempted to do just that. CHS was an avowed Calvinist. You are off to a great start on this board, but something tells me this is not your first rodeo in these parts.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You do not even know what slander is. Slander is making false and damaging statements against someone. Your inane OP attempted to do just that. CHS was an avowed Calvinist. You are off to a great start on this board, but something tells me this is not your first rodeo in these parts.

He was a Doctrine of Grace believer but not a Presbyterian & Presbyterians are what I consider true followers of Calvin... ie, infant baptism, sacrament hopping etc

 

[JonC]

which animals beside bees eat honey?
So why have excess? to insure the chance of ingestion.

Bears, skunks, honey badgers, raccoons...animals eat honey. People eat honey as well.

Your line of reasoning is utilitarianism. I believe the philosophy flawed.

Why have a universe when a solar system would do? Why have such diversity in nature when a less diverse creation would have been enough? Why have more than is necessary?

The answer is not chance. The answer us that Creation itself testifies to the glory of God. Things look different when you start with the Creator rather than creation.

 

[Ran the Man]

Bears, skunks, honey badgers, raccoons...animals eat honey. People eat honey as well.

Your line of reasoning is utilitarianism. I believe the philosophy flawed.

Why have a universe when a solar system would do? Why have such diversity in nature when a less diverse creation would have been enough? Why have more than is necessary?

The answer is not chance. The answer us that Creation itself testifies to the glory of God. Things look different when you start with the Creator rather than creation.

I wrote or meant to write WHICH ANIMALS BESIDES BEES EAT POLLEN?

 

[Ran the Man]

Bears, skunks, honey badgers, raccoons...animals eat honey. People eat honey as well.

Your line of reasoning is utilitarianism. I believe the philosophy flawed.

Why have a universe when a solar system would do? Why have such diversity in nature when a less diverse creation would have been enough? Why have more than is necessary?

The answer is not chance. The answer us that Creation itself testifies to the glory of God. Things look different when you start with the Creator rather than creation.

And how does Calvinism glorify God? It makes him into an arbitrary chooser of who goes to hell and who doesn't.

 

[Ran the Man]

You do not even know what slander is. Slander is making false and damaging statements against someone. Your inane OP attempted to do just that. CHS was an avowed Calvinist. You are off to a great start on this board, but something tells me this is not your first rodeo in these parts.

Hey man, don't insinuate.

 

[JonC]

And how does Calvinism glorify God? It makes him into an arbitrary chooser of who goes to hell and who doesn't.

I don't believe it does. I believe Calvinism elevates man over God. But that does not make your argument valid.

 

[Reformed1689]

I don't believe it does. I believe Calvinism elevates man over God. But that does not make your argument valid.

Curious as to how you think Calvinism elevates man over God?

 

[JonC]

I wrote or meant to write WHICH ANIMALS BESIDES BEES EAT POLLEN?

Several types of insects that eat pollen. Many species of beetles eat pollen. Ladybugs eat pollen. Mites eat pollen.

Other animals feed on these insects that eat pollen.

 

[JonC]

Curious as to how you think Calvinism elevates man over God?

David,

I will not discuss it here (believe me, it would derail the thread), but I will try to answer your question. In my opinion Calvinism assumes a faulty view of divine justice which drives the theology by viewing God being both just and the justifier of sinners is not a declaration but rather a summary of the problem solved. Rather than viewing God as infinite, Calvinism has an idea of God as subjected to the knowledge of good and evil (in practice, not in word). The divine nature is, essentially, a human nature without sin on a larger scale. Calvinism looks to the Law and God's righteousness as coming through the Law in Christ imputed to man. It is all centered on man, not God, at it's foundation.

Insofar as the "five points" of Calvinism, I agree. But from a very different position.

 

[MartyF]

Who cares about philosophy?

Obviously you do. Your argument is purely philosophical and is not biblically based.

 

[tyndale1946]

If we're born of the spirit, why do we need to be born again?
And you just disavowed the uniqueness of the Conception of Christ.

Hey don't get your doctrine drawers in an uproar, I made an error... Every child is born of their natural father and every child of God is born again of their Spiritual Father... Been trying to walk with the Lord since the age of seven, see how you do at the age of seventy-three?... Been on this board over 18 years, newbie!

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

[tyndale1946]

David,

I will not discuss it here (believe me, it would derail the thread), but I will try to answer your question. In my opinion Calvinism assumes a faulty view of divine justice which drives the theology by viewing God being both just and the justifier of sinners is not a declaration but rather a summary of the problem solved. Rather than viewing God as infinite, Calvinism has an idea of God as subjected to the knowledge of good and evil (in practice, not in word). The divine nature is, essentially, a human nature without sin on a larger scale. Calvinism looks to the Law and God's righteousness as coming through the Law in Christ imputed to man. It is all centered on man, not God, at it's foundation.

Insofar as the "five points" of Calvinism, I agree. But from a very different position.

Same here and I also look at Calvinism from a different perspective... Brother Glen

 

[Ran the Man]

Hey don't get your doctrine drawers in an uproar, I made an error... Every child is born of their natural father and every child of God is born again of their Spiritual Father... Been trying to walk with the Lord since the age of seven, see how you do at the age of seventy-three?... Been on this board over 18 years, newbie!

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Well, people got up in arms over my misspelling of Spurgeon's name. I thought i'd fit right in.

 

[JonC]

Well, people got up in arms over my misspelling of Spurgeon's name. I thought i'd fit right in.

You have to understand that to most Calvinists around here, misspelling "Spurgeon", questioning his theology, mentioning that he never actually preached the sermons as published (he revised each sermon before print), or refusing to appreciate a good cigar is blasphemy.

 

[Ran the Man]

You have to understand that to most Calvinists around here, misspelling "Spurgeon", questioning his theology, mentioning that he never actually preached the sermons as published (he revised each sermon before print), or refusing to appreciate a good cigar is blasphemy.

ha ha!

 

[Ran the Man]

Hey don't get your doctrine drawers in an uproar, I made an error... Every child is born of their natural father and every child of God is born again of their Spiritual Father... Been trying to walk with the Lord since the age of seven, see how you do at the age of seventy-three?... Been on this board over 18 years, newbie!

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

very interesting that you quoted Romans 8. this section is reaffirming the Christians not to doubt and go back to Judaism. He reaffirms that they are indeed the new vessel, the new ark of the covenant, and that if they suffer with Christ, they will be glorified with Him.
Romans is about God choosing a new vessel, the gentiles. Not invdividual salvation.

 

[tyndale1946]

very interesting that you quoted Romans 8. this section is reaffirming the Christians not to doubt and go back to Judaism. He reaffirms that they are indeed the new vessel, the new ark of the covenant, and that if they suffer with Christ, they will be glorified with Him.
Romans is about God choosing a new vessel, the gentiles. Not invdividual salvation.

Okay, here's the big one!... Brother Glen

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Ran the Man]

Okay, here's the big one!... Brother Glen

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

right. salvation is a MYSTERY, not an easily defined, manmade, lockbox doctrine like TULIP. you cant lock God into 5 points. That's the point. This Jew wanted a definite, doctrinal answer. Jesus gave him a spiritual one. Calvinists are basically the Pharisees of the Church.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Conclusion: if there are so many pollen to maximize chance, then God is not controlling it.What is chance is not control. Spurgeon's example disproves itself.

I think you drew an invalid conclusion. [Note: I am neither a C. nor an A. so this isn't a spiritual argument.]

You didn't define "chance". Do you mean chance as in giving all pollen grains an equal chance or chance as in giving that one singular pollen grain God intends the chance to enter the pistil?

The Bible says that the stars, moon, sun [yes, a star], and even ocean waves are all ordained, set in their order, and know their place. I believe that means that God is in control of those things.

And if God is sovereign over things that are incredibly macro in nature, why shouldn't he be in charge of the incredibly micro?

God created the way that all living things would reproduce, including flowers and humans. Knowing ahead of time that there would be many barriers to a male germ cell reaching a female germ cell in matter, which is created by God, but does not contain the supernatural abilities of God......it makes sense to me that God could ensure a way for the male germ cell of his choice to be free of those natural barriers by having other male germ cells "take the fall" so to speak.

That's one idea of chance - one way that God could be sovereign even over his smallest of matter.

Who's to say that this is not how it works? Even our own bodies - created by God - are subject to deterioration because of sin. And yet God ordains when our hearts stop beating and when they conquer disease.

If you are trying disprove a doctrine or spiritual teaching, giving your ideas about germ cells didn't do it. All you did was to disagree with someone. Again, I don't march behind the tenets of C. nor A. I'm just making an observation.