Spurgeon's own summation

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!

Now friends, "Do you agree with this statement"?

 

[freeatlast]

Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!

Now friends, "Do you agree with this statement"?

Not if it stands alone. It denies the other side. I realize that the two do not mix in our/my mind but both irresistible grace and free will are taught in the bible. I am not compelled (although I wish I did understand) to understand it, just believe it. Here is the other side.


Revelation 3:20 ..... "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me." The Holy Spirit is a gentleman! He knocks at the door of your heart, he doesn't kick it down! Man has the choice to hear and open, or to refuse Him entrance.

Matthew 23:37 ..... "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem ... How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

II Timothy 3:8 ..... "And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose (resist) the truth."

"Thou didst bear with them for many years, and admonished them by Thy Spirit through Thy prophets, yet they would not give ear" (Nehemiah 9:30).

"The angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, and fought against them" (Isaiah 63:9-10).

Acts 7:51 ..... "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did."

 

[quantumfaith]

Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!

Now friends, "Do you agree with this statement"?

EWF, I do agree with the truth of this statement in that it applies to many persons in pages and narratives of scripture. God, IMO, does in fact, select certain men and women in redemptive history to perform appointed tasks and fulfill certain roles. I am not convinced that scripture teaches that this is so for all (rank and file) of believers. I am with FAL that I believe the scriptures demonstrate a tension between God's Sovereignty and our freedom. Our "issues" is how we work through that tension and understand it.

 

[HAMel]

EW&F, I consider Spurgeon to be right on target.

Yes, Jesus knocked on the door of my heart and kicked it open like a gentleman would have done. Then, instead of destruction leaving all in shambles, He rebuilt it with a door knob so that it would open from both sides. In fact, I gave Him an extra key. That way, should He drop by while I'm asleep he can let Himself in.

Ask me if I'm thankful for that new door.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not if it stands alone. It denies the other side. I realize that the two do not mix in our/my mind but both irresistible grace and free will are taught in the bible. I am not compelled (although I wish I did understand) to understand it, just believe it. Here is the other side.

Yes well Gerald, I am trying to understand it....it is at the epicenter of our conflicts with one another. I well understand Spurgeon's own statement because it is identical to my own salvation story (which came late in my life) so it is very clear to me. However If I'm to understand the other side, they came to faith via their own efforts. Still searching but obviously you can see why I camp with the Calvinists.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, I do agree with the truth of this statement in that it applies to many persons in pages and narratives of scripture. God, IMO, does in fact, select certain men and women in redemptive history to perform appointed tasks and fulfill certain roles. I am not convinced that scripture teaches that this is so for all (rank and file) of believers. I am with FAL that I believe the scriptures demonstrate a tension between God's Sovereignty and our freedom. Our "issues" is how we work through that tension and understand it.

Dave, what answer do you think a Calvinist would give to your last statement? Now there may be more than one, which do you feel the majority would answer you with (This exersize is to display your understanding of your opponent) :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EW&F, I consider Spurgeon to be right on target.

Yes, Jesus knocked on the door of my heart and kicked it open like a gentleman would have done. Then, instead of destruction leaving all in shambles, He rebuilt it with a door knob so that it would open from both sides. In fact, I gave Him an extra key. That way, should He drop by while I'm asleep he can let Himself in.

Ask me if I'm thankful for that new door.

Im serious about this question, "Dont you miss all the fun & enjoyment of the sin" ?

 

[freeatlast]

Yes well Gerald, I am trying to understand it....it is at the epicenter of our conflicts with one another. I well understand Spurgeon's own statement because it is identical to my own salvation story (which came late in my life) so it is very clear to me. However If I'm to understand the other side, they came to faith via their own efforts. Still searching but obviously you can see why I camp with the Calvinists.

That is interesting because I have not ever heard anyone claim that they came to the Lord by their own efforts. If anyone says that then they are just wrong and most likely not even saved. I believe it is good to seek to understand that which is hidden. However there are some things that we just have to accept, as God has chosen to hide them from us (Deut 29:29).

I believe in the Trinity but I can not explain it. I smile at those who have figured it out. I believe that Jesus was and is God, but God cannot be tempted, yet Jesus was tempted. I believe that Jesus is fully God but Jesus said the Father was greater then He. I believe that God knows everything, but Jesus said He himself did not. So we have a paradox many times in scripture.

For me I continue to seek some possible answers to these seeming paradoxes, but I do not allow them to override my faith as I allow both sides of the truth to be part of my faith since they are all true. The problem is that I just do not have enough information to process that truth to full understanding how it works. For now I live my faith in a paradox. One day I assume the paradox will become full light and I will wonder why I did not comprehend it in the past.
So I say keep seeking, but do not choose one side over another so as to rule out a truth of equal importance when two sides that seem to oppose exist in scripture.

 

[HAMel]

Im serious about this question, "Dont you miss all the fun & enjoyment of the sin" ?

...I though I was having fun.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Im serious about this question, "Dont you miss all the fun & enjoyment of the sin" ?

...I though I was having fun.

OK so you have really never had sin fun have you? This is no condemnation of you brother, merely an observation....IE your experience has never delved in the pool of sin.

 

[HAMel]

OK so you have really never had sin fun have you? This is no condemnation of you brother, merely an observation....IE your experience has never delved in the pool of sin.

Give me a break here. I was just as everyone else is/was. A lost sinner on my way to hell. Did I sell dope? Run illegal whiskey? Manage a 'ho house? Commit mayhem? Rob others? Beat up on the helpless...? No.

I was just a plain run of the mill sinner on my way to an eternity of misery. I was as morally good as the next guy, just lost.

 

[Winman]

Im serious about this question, "Dont you miss all the fun & enjoyment of the sin" ?

When I was young I was an idiot and acted the fool, but it did not really make me happy, it made me hate myself. Sin always seems fun at first, but turns on you quickly.

I don't agree with Spurgeon, God forces no one, he wins us over with love. When you realize Jesus loved you so much he would die for you, you would be a fool to not gladly open the door and invite him in. When I got saved, I wanted Jesus to come into my heart more than anything I have ever wanted. There is nothing the world can offer that can compare to Jesus.

Some of you fellows must be young, sin will ruin you, I don't miss it, I want to get away from it. I long for the day I will not have to deal with this sinful flesh anymore.

 

[Amy.G]

Im serious about this question, "Dont you miss all the fun & enjoyment of the sin" ?

I sure don't. I agree with Winman that sin made me hate myself. God used my sinful lifestyle and the guilt that it caused to bring me to Jesus. I could not bear the weight of it anymore.


Maybe if you miss your sin, you haven't really repented.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK so you have really never had sin fun have you? This is no condemnation of you brother, merely an observation....IE your experience has never delved in the pool of sin.

Give me a break here. I was just as everyone else is/was. A lost sinner on my way to hell. Did I sell dope? Run illegal whiskey? Manage a 'ho house? Commit mayhem? Rob others? Beat up on the helpless...? No.

I was just a plain run of the mill sinner on my way to an eternity of misery. I was as morally good as the next guy, just lost.

LOL....did I say that.....ROFL. Noooooo but if you ran drugs, there is a guy I know who makes about 90K Net a month.....that will buy you a hell bent interesting life. Noooo though....just wine, women & song sin variety is all I was asking about:smilewinkgrin:

 

[quantumfaith]

Dave, what answer do you think a Calvinist would give to your last statement? Now there may be more than one, which do you feel the majority would answer you with (This exersize is to display your understanding of your opponent) :smilewinkgrin:

1. There would most likely be question regarding my "deficient" understanding of God's soveriegnty.
2. Second, I would be reminded that we don't really have free will.

These are the first two that come to my mind. I am certain there are others.

 

[Winman]

LOL....did I say that.....ROFL. Noooooo but if you ran drugs, there is a guy I know who makes about 90K Net a month.....that will buy you a hell bent interesting life. Noooo though....just wine, women & song sin variety is all I was asking about:smilewinkgrin:

I have been in numerous Rock bands (guitar) and played clubs for years, I have seen it all. That stuff will ruin you. Those guys AREN'T having fun, they are all miserable, it just takes awhile to see it.

 

[Amy.G]

I have been in numerous Rock bands (guitar) and played clubs for years, I have seen it all. That stuff will ruin you. Those guys AREN'T having fun, they are all miserable, it just takes awhile to see it.

My uncle was a professional musician (bass) from his early twenties until he committed suicide 7 years ago. He lived a wild life and it finally got the best of him. He never had faith in Jesus and he was never happy regardless of all the women that threw themselves at him or the alcohol or drugs.

 

[Winman]

My uncle was a professional musician (bass) from his early twenties until he committed suicide 7 years ago. He lived a wild life and it finally got the best of him. He never had faith in Jesus and he was never happy regardless of all the women that threw themselves at him or the alcohol or drugs.

Well, I was a Christian and for the most part behaved myself. I loved playing guitar (still do), and the money was good, but the work environment is terrible. I have seen folks break beer bottles over people's heads, girls flash themselves, one night a drunk lost his balance and came at us full speed and crashed all over our drummer, one night a drunk attacked me while I was playing for no reason! I even saw a big guy, maybe 6'3" and 250 lbs. get shot in the stomach. He ran around in circles crying like a baby.

I still plug my Les Paul into my Marshall amp and hit a power chord, I do love that sound, but I don't miss those clubs at all.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

1. There would most likely be question regarding my "deficient" understanding of God's sovereignty.
2. Second, I would be reminded that we don't really have free will.

These are the first two that come to my mind. I am certain there are others.

Well regarding your 1st answer.....I dont know any Calvinist who have a very deep, deep understanding because sometimes that takes years of study & prayer to understand so I personally would not be in any position to criticize.....however SOVEREIGNTY is a big concern to us

Regarding free will.....I stand on the side of limited Free Will & my mind is always drawn back to the Potter & Pottery in Romans.....you know the passage. However Im now going to study your beliefs because I need to have greater understanding ....Sun Tzu (Know your opponent)

Have a good evening!

 

[Thousand Hills]

God, IMO, does in fact, select certain men and women in redemptive history to perform appointed tasks and fulfill certain roles. I am not convinced that scripture teaches that this is so for all (rank and file) of believers.

Just wanted to point out this statement for discussion, as I've seen it used on here several times, that God selects some special people but not all. I disagree, just a couple of points:
(1) Were the disciples not just ordinary guys who did extraordinary things through God's power.
(2) I may not have been called to be a Billy Graham, or an Adrian Rogers, or Spurgeon, but God called me to be a Thousand Hills, and I'm to bloom where I am planted however small or large it is, however menial or grand it is. I'm still a part of his grand plan. "For Such a Time as This". Its like a car, I may not be a flashy chrome bumper or a hood ornament, but just a simple nut and bolt. But if that piece is missing its not complete, the whole won't function or work like its designed to.