I see you can not answer as well! Why? Because to answer this question will put a kink in your own interpretation!
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Start Praying in Tongues
- Thread starter plain_n_simple
- Start date
I see you can not answer as well! Why? Because to answer this question will put a kink in your own interpretation!
There was no question to answer when you use fallacies to make your point. You should do some research on formal and informal fallacies. Quite honestly you need your fallacies to make your point.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
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Last edited by a moderator:
Really? So how does the Holy Spirit pray when we do not know how to pray? I missed your answer...There was no question to answer when you use fallacies to make your point. You should do some research on formal and informal fallacies. Quite honestly you need your fallacies to make your point.
You must have missed my testimony! I have heard it all and believed it all (cessationalism)! I lived in unbelief concerning this for years! But no one could answer my question back then either! THey ignored certain scriptures in order to believe that way!HERE SEE WHAT JOHN MACARTHUR HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT...HE COVERS THE SUBJECT MUCH BETTER AND MAYBE YOU'LL BELIEVE HIM MORE CAUSE HE IS A MAN AND A MAN OF GOD....EVEN THOUGH I'M A WOMAN OF GOD...OH WELL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZBraM8BU30
Really? So how does the Holy Spirit pray when we do not know how to pray? I missed your answer...
It cannot be answered reasonably because the premise is incorrect. Let's take a look at your question:
Ok...I will ask again! Do you know the scriputure that says that when we do not know how to pray the Holy Spirit prays for us?
Set aside tongues for a moment! And tell me how the Holy Spirit prays for us when we can not pray for ourself!
The answer to this questions does not lead to praying in tongues anywhere in scripture. The begging the question fallacy comes into play here because your implication is that if scripture says that the HG prays for us when we do not know how to pray that leads to or proves that tongues is the HG praying through us to the Father.
One does not lead to the other. It is a fallacy and your premise to the question is in error.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
JOHN MACARTHUR
Can anyone understand what you are saying?
The next verses in Chapter 14 are the crux of Paul’s chastising admonishments to the Corinthians. He is clearly not happy with the way that tongues are being used, and with this church rich with pagan practices, the use of tongues is just another misuse of the gifts that God has given them with. Paul admonishes them here:
Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:7-12
Paul again repeats the purpose of true tongues:
Tongues MUST be spoken with intelligible words
Must be understood by others
Must be with meaning
Must be a gift to build up the church
Pray and sing with the understanding and fruitfulness
Paul continues in Corinthians:
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
- 1 Corinthians 14:13-17
It’s unbelievable to me the number of Christians that read the preceding paragraph and think Paul is patting them on a back for “praying in the spirit” using an unknown tongue! Paul is one again, chastising the baby believers for their immature use of the gift of tongues. These things he declares from those verses:
Tongues are useless without interpretation
The mind is unfruitful with this type of tongues
Those who can’t understand what you are praying or singing about can’t even say “Amen”
Praying must be done with understanding
Singing must be done with understanding
When praying or singing “in the spirit” of bad tongues, the other is not edified
Stop acting like children!
Paul says in verses 18-19 how he speaks in tongues more than anyone, but in church he rather speak words of understanding. Now, can anyone think after carefully reading the preceding verses that Paul speaks unintelligently and without meaning? Which tongues is Paul speaking of? He wouldn’t turn around and speak the same type of tongues he just finished chastisng the baby Christians for doing, would he?
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:
“Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” 1 Corinthians 14:20-25
Paul verbally spanking the babies again when he tells them straight out STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN! It’s time for them to grow up and use the gifts that God has given them for the building up of the church, not for self-glorification.
Can anyone understand what you are saying?
The next verses in Chapter 14 are the crux of Paul’s chastising admonishments to the Corinthians. He is clearly not happy with the way that tongues are being used, and with this church rich with pagan practices, the use of tongues is just another misuse of the gifts that God has given them with. Paul admonishes them here:
Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:7-12
Paul again repeats the purpose of true tongues:
Tongues MUST be spoken with intelligible words
Must be understood by others
Must be with meaning
Must be a gift to build up the church
Pray and sing with the understanding and fruitfulness
Paul continues in Corinthians:
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
- 1 Corinthians 14:13-17
It’s unbelievable to me the number of Christians that read the preceding paragraph and think Paul is patting them on a back for “praying in the spirit” using an unknown tongue! Paul is one again, chastising the baby believers for their immature use of the gift of tongues. These things he declares from those verses:
Tongues are useless without interpretation
The mind is unfruitful with this type of tongues
Those who can’t understand what you are praying or singing about can’t even say “Amen”
Praying must be done with understanding
Singing must be done with understanding
When praying or singing “in the spirit” of bad tongues, the other is not edified
Stop acting like children!
Paul says in verses 18-19 how he speaks in tongues more than anyone, but in church he rather speak words of understanding. Now, can anyone think after carefully reading the preceding verses that Paul speaks unintelligently and without meaning? Which tongues is Paul speaking of? He wouldn’t turn around and speak the same type of tongues he just finished chastisng the baby Christians for doing, would he?
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:
“Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” 1 Corinthians 14:20-25
Paul verbally spanking the babies again when he tells them straight out STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN! It’s time for them to grow up and use the gifts that God has given them for the building up of the church, not for self-glorification.
I was not referring it to tongues! If you read my post I told them to set aside tongues! Just answer the question if you can!It cannot be answered reasonably because the premise is incorrect. Let's take a look at your question:
The answer to this questions does not lead to praying in tongues anywhere in scripture. The begging the question fallacy comes into play here because your implication is that if scripture says that the HG prays for us when we do not know how to pray that leads to or proves that tongues is the HG praying through us to the Father.
One does not lead to the other. It is a fallacy and your premise to the question is in error.
How does the Holy Spirit pray for us when we can not pray for ourselves?
I was not referring it to tongues! If you read my post I told them to set aside tongues! Just answer the question if you can!
How does the Holy Spirit pray for us when we can not pray for ourselves?
sigh, you are asking a leading question with a false premise to make your point about speaking in tongues is the HG praying through us. Let's be a little honest here.
Matt22:37-39
New Member
Question: "What is praying in the Spirit?"
Answer: Praying in the Spirit is mentioned three times in Scripture. First Corinthians 14:15 says, “So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.” Ephesians 6:18 says, “And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.” Jude 20 says, “But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.” So, what exactly does it mean to pray in the Spirit?
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for. Romans 8:26 tells us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”
Some, based on 1 Corinthians 14:15, equate praying in the Spirit with praying in tongues. Discussing the gift of tongues, Paul mentions “pray with my spirit.” First Corinthians 14:14 states that when a person prays in tongues, he does not know what he is saying, since it is spoken in a language he does not know. Further, no one else can understand what is being said, unless there is an interpreter (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). In Ephesians 6:18, Paul instructs us to “pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.” How are we to pray with all kinds of prayers and requests and pray for the saints, if no one, including the person praying, understands what is being said? Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in tongues.
www.gotquestions.org
Answer: Praying in the Spirit is mentioned three times in Scripture. First Corinthians 14:15 says, “So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.” Ephesians 6:18 says, “And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.” Jude 20 says, “But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.” So, what exactly does it mean to pray in the Spirit?
The Greek word translated “pray in” can have several different meanings. It can mean “by means of,” “with the help of,” “in the sphere of,” and “in connection to.” Praying in the Spirit does not refer to the words we are saying. Rather, it refers to how we are praying. Praying in the Spirit is praying according to the Spirit’s leading. It is praying for things the Spirit leads us to pray for. Romans 8:26 tells us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”
Some, based on 1 Corinthians 14:15, equate praying in the Spirit with praying in tongues. Discussing the gift of tongues, Paul mentions “pray with my spirit.” First Corinthians 14:14 states that when a person prays in tongues, he does not know what he is saying, since it is spoken in a language he does not know. Further, no one else can understand what is being said, unless there is an interpreter (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). In Ephesians 6:18, Paul instructs us to “pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests.” How are we to pray with all kinds of prayers and requests and pray for the saints, if no one, including the person praying, understands what is being said? Therefore, praying in the Spirit should be understood as praying in the power of the Spirit, by the leading of the Spirit, and according to His will, not as praying in tongues.
www.gotquestions.org
NO! I am not speaking of tongues in this verse! I just ask a simple question...How does the Holy Spirit pray when we do not know how to? Just answer honestly! If you do not know...then say so!sigh, you are asking a leading question with a false premise to make your point about speaking in tongues is the HG praying through us. Let's be a little honest here.
The rebuke here was tongues without the interpretation! Anyone that speaks in tongues no one can understand them UNLESS God interpretes through you also! He is not rebuking speaking in tongues...just putting in order what they were doing!JOHN MACARTHUR
Can anyone understand what you are saying?
The next verses in Chapter 14 are the crux of Paul’s chastising admonishments to the Corinthians. He is clearly not happy with the way that tongues are being used, and with this church rich with pagan practices, the use of tongues is just another misuse of the gifts that God has given them with. Paul admonishes them here:
Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:7-12
Tongues with interpretation will do this!Paul again repeats the purpose of true tongues:
Tongues MUST be spoken with intelligible words
Must be understood by others
Must be with meaning
Must be a gift to build up the church
See this is an example of what I said earlier! You have to leave out part of the scripture to prove your theory! It says pray with BOTH with the spirit (which is tongues, vs.14) AND with your understanding!Pray and sing with the understanding and fruitfulness
The rebuke was praying in the spirit without the interpretation! He is not forbidding tongues!Paul continues in Corinthians:
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
- 1 Corinthians 14:13-17
It’s unbelievable to me the number of Christians that read the preceding paragraph and think Paul is patting them on a back for “praying in the spirit” using an unknown tongue! Paul is one again, chastising the baby believers for their immature use of the gift of tongues. These things he declares from those verses:
Tongues are useless without interpretation
The mind is unfruitful with this type of tongues
Those who can’t understand what you are praying or singing about can’t even say “Amen”
Praying must be done with understanding
Singing must be done with understanding
When praying or singing “in the spirit” of bad tongues, the other is not edified
Stop acting like children!
He was saying IN THE ASSEMBLY! He did speak in tongues more than any! Can you tell me where he spoke in tongues if not in church? Between him and God just like he tells them to do in vs. 28.Paul says in verses 18-19 how he speaks in tongues more than anyone, but in church he rather speak words of understanding. Now, can anyone think after carefully reading the preceding verses that Paul speaks unintelligently and without meaning? Which tongues is Paul speaking of? He wouldn’t turn around and speak the same type of tongues he just finished chastisng the baby Christians for doing, would he?
Where are you getting this! It is so against what the true meaning of the scripture says! Prophecy is not for the unbeliever it is for the believer! Believers do not need tongues for a sign...they already believe!Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:
“Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” 1 Corinthians 14:20-25
The rebuke was the selfishness in not thinking of the assembly and to do all through love! You left out vs. 39!!! But most unbelievers in tongues usually Do!Paul verbally spanking the babies again when he tells them straight out STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN! It’s time for them to grow up and use the gifts that God has given them for the building up of the church, not for self-glorification.
NO! I am not speaking of tongues in this verse! I just ask a simple question...How does the Holy Spirit pray when we do not know how to? Just answer honestly! If you do not know...then say so!
uh huh, sorry I do not believe you. We all know where you are headed.
What a cop out! You do not know the answer do you?uh huh, sorry I do not believe you. We all know where you are headed.
What a cop out! You do not know the answer do you?
Just because no one is going to let you corner them into your false premise does not mean what you say. That is a demonization tactic to provoke others. Rather than have an actual discussion you resort to debate tactics and childish rhetoric. I will leave you to your misery.
NO! I am not speaking of tongues in this verse! I just ask a simple question...How does the Holy Spirit pray when we do not know how to? Just answer honestly! If you do not know...then say so!
I'm curious as to how YOU answer this. I have a word in mind that starts with an "L"; but please, by all means, educate us.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
You know every time I see these kinds of posts I get irked.
Why? Because tongues was NOT given to EVERY Christian. Yet we are some how supposed to think if we can't speak in tongues we are some how deficient in our Faith.
1 cor 12 makes it clear this is NOT the case. There are different gifts, some are even said to cease, tongues is one of those. 1Cor 13.
It is sinful to demand others do what God has not called them to do just because some preacher some where takes a snippet of scripture and runs with it.
Exactly.
And since it seems that what happens in churches when Charismatic nutcases infiltrate them is also happening on this forum, I may not post here much any longer.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Ok...I will ask again! Do you know the scriputure that says that when we do not know how to pray the Holy Spirit prays for us?
Set aside tongues for a moment! And tell me how the Holy Spirit prays for us when we can not pray for ourself!
With groanings too deep for words. Which eliminates this scripture as meaning tongues or a "private prayer language".
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Modern Charismatic/Pentecostal tongues has been proven to NOT be a language; the mission filed has proven this.
Modern Charismania tongue-talk is nothing more than gibberish, vain nonsensical babblings of deceived minds. Considering where and with whom this originated, it is occult-inspired.
Satan can and has appeared as an angel of light, and he is doing it again with this modern Charismanic tongue-babble.
Modern Charismania tongue-talk is nothing more than gibberish, vain nonsensical babblings of deceived minds. Considering where and with whom this originated, it is occult-inspired.
Satan can and has appeared as an angel of light, and he is doing it again with this modern Charismanic tongue-babble.
Yes, if fact the verse says "with groanings which cannot be uttered."With groanings too deep for words. Which eliminates this scripture as meaning tongues or a "private prayer language".
It is impossible for the human vocal chords to utter or produce in any way these "groanings of the Holy Spirit." They are of the Holy Spirit alone. They cannot originate from man. He cannot utter them. Therefore, they have nothing whatsoever to do with tongues.