Who are "most" how many exactly has made that argument? Please show each and every post since you have claimed "most".
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Start Praying in Tongues
- Thread starter plain_n_simple
- Start date
Who are "most" how many exactly has made that argument? Please show each and every post since you have claimed "most".
THat is irrevelant...How do you reconcile the two debates?
See here is the problem. I have no onus to reconcile the two because I neither made the claim nor do I hold to it. But what you have done is to paint everyone with your broad brush. Now you have misrepresented others so answer my question. Who was it that made this claim? I know who and how many but you cannot provide more than one or two.
How do YOU reconcile the two?
#1..I have no problem with the Holy Spirit praying for me when I do not know how to pray!
#2...I also have no problem "praying in the spirit"/tongues and allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through me!
So I do not have to reconcile the two!
I am not saying # 1 is tongues!
But the ones that make the argument that "Why would you pray in a language when you do not know what you are saying?" Needs to answer the question concerning allowing the Holy Spirit to pray for you and you still do not know what he is praying! What is the difference?
I did not name you....
....did I specifically say that YOU were the culprit? I am painting with a borad brush, and if the paint happens to tocuh on you, I apologize. I was addressing the "better than thou" persons who proclaim to have a corner on everything that comes forth from the Bible and out of the Kingdom.
Like the old idiom says: If the shoe fits, where it. But, I did not name names, I was simply making a very broad point, and I for one, am thoroughly disgusted with the attitdue being copped by some on this board, that if they can't explain it, it doesn't come from God.
My gift of tongues [prayer language] is done in the privacy of my prayer closet. It does not hurt anyone. It does not present itself as a stumbling block for anyone. So, if it works for me, let it be! After all, I'm not busting into anyone elses prayer life or closet, and telling them what they do and say is not of God!
The audacity of some on this board is shameful, and if I were God, I'd judge it severely. So, be grateful I'm not God :laugh:
....did I specifically say that YOU were the culprit? I am painting with a borad brush, and if the paint happens to tocuh on you, I apologize. I was addressing the "better than thou" persons who proclaim to have a corner on everything that comes forth from the Bible and out of the Kingdom.
Like the old idiom says: If the shoe fits, where it. But, I did not name names, I was simply making a very broad point, and I for one, am thoroughly disgusted with the attitdue being copped by some on this board, that if they can't explain it, it doesn't come from God.
My gift of tongues [prayer language] is done in the privacy of my prayer closet. It does not hurt anyone. It does not present itself as a stumbling block for anyone. So, if it works for me, let it be! After all, I'm not busting into anyone elses prayer life or closet, and telling them what they do and say is not of God!
The audacity of some on this board is shameful, and if I were God, I'd judge it severely. So, be grateful I'm not God :laugh:
All I want to say is....
Gee Whiz; Good golly!
:BangHead:
Last edited by a moderator:
Here is the difference: "praying through you" and "praying for you."
Romans 8:26 is clear that the Spirit intercedes for us, with groanings that cannot be spoken. There is NO vocalization indicated; it cannot be the Spirit praying through us.
The speaking in languages mentioned in 1 Cor 14 is couched within the context of edifying the church; this is not the Spirit interceding on our behalf. It is obviously vocalized words; so does not meet the criteria of "groanings that cannot be uttered."
If no one can interpret, then the one speaking in languages is to sit and pray quietly (silently?) to God and to himself (don't forget the "and"; it's not just God Paul tells us to pray to). Now remember Paul's words earlier in the chapter: if there is no understanding, then the speaker is as a barbarian to the listener; in other words, you are as a barbarian to yourself. So again, this is not the Spirit interceding on our behalf, because there is vocalization.
So how are the two reconciled? A couple of pages back, I mentioned there was a word I was thinking of that starts with an "L"; you apparently missed that post, due to all the other posts you were responding to. The word is "leads." We pray as the spirit leads. This fully supports praying to God and to ourselves, and fits with what Paul says in chapter 14, because we pray with the understanding.
Last edited by a moderator:
This was not the point..but go ahead!
Again, this was not the point!
I do believe the Holy Spirit leads us to pray with our understanding as well as in the spirit! But you missed my point! If you go back and read the thread and other threads on tongues...most ask the question "why would God give you a prayer language that you do not understand or know what you are praying? BUT YET! They will say it is ok for the Holy Spirit to pray for you when you do not know what to pray. Either way YOU do not know what the Holy Spirit is praying! Whether it is the one where no vocals are used or one that you use your vocals.
I got your point, and addressed it. But I'll try again, because I readily admit I don't communicate well.
In the case of the Holy Spirit interceding on our behalf, there is no language in the sense of speaking in languages; as scripture says, "groanings that cannot be uttered." Thus, this is not a "prayer language" that you or I simply don't understand; and it is not us praying, or the Spirit praying through us. This is the Spirit interceding for us.
In the case of 1 Cor 14, again: if there is no interpreter, we are to pray to God and ourselves; but if we pray without understanding, then we are as barbarians to ourselves. Thus, why Paul said we should pray with the spirit and with the understanding.
Before I forget: remember that we all agree that speaking in languages is a sign for unbelievers; which begs the question, why would God use a private, unknown language with a believer? Why do you, as a believer, need the sign?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I have answered it. Are you dense or just dishonest?
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Did I claim you said I was the culprit? No. I was trying to give you a compliment. Did you not get that?
In case you and others have missed where I stated my position of the present-day operation of the gifts, I'll repeat it: I am not a cessationist. However, the Charismatic interpretation and practice of the gifts is not scriptural. Therefore, any purported gift based on error does not come from God.
You may very well have a genuine gift. If so, it will line up with scripture and not the Charismatic error.
Last edited by a moderator:
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Do you attend a Baptist church?
Thanks for, Ummm.....
...the compliment?!?
As for your claim that I am in some state of Chrismatic error, did you ever think that it could be those who do not accept the gift of prayer language or even tongues that are caught up in the Charismatic error.
Thomas, what I like about mirrors are that if you look into one, you see yourself as others see you. When it comes to who is in error, I am trusting God to make that correction, not well intended folks who have never experienced this realm of the supernatural side of God.
We both agree that God is supernatural, at least I hope you believe that He is a supernatural God? And it is that ability to come forward in the supernatural realm that most believers tend to overlook just what He can do.
You, and others think He ended the passing on to mankind the supernatural gifts somewhere during the NT era. However, in Acts 2:17, the author repeats the prophecy of Joel 2:28 when he writes that [and I'll show this verse in several different versions]:
New International Version (©2011)
"
New Living Translation (©2007)
In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams..."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;"
The one thing we both should be able to agree on is that no one knows when the last days are, which means, from the time this word was shared in Acts 2:17, the church started thinking and living as if it were in the "last days!" Thus, we are seeing the possibility of the gifts be handed out to the young and old, including the gift of prophecy.
In fact, the entire text speaks of God's supernatural outpouring upon mankind, and that would and should include tongues. I do not believe that the gifts of Pentecost ever ceased, because if they did, then the prophecy in Joel and here in Acts2:17-21, is null and void.
Let me share the entire text from the Joel and Acts word of prophecy:
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’"
There is nothing to say that my interpretation is any more wrong or right than anything you or others have quoted. I guess we'll all just have to wait until, like that neat old hymn says, "When we all get to heaven!" Then our eyes will be really opened.
However, until then, there is nothing that I am doing that is going to separate me from God's grace.
Thomas, when you get to heaven, look for me there, and we can discuss these issues in more depth! Shalom..... :wavey:
...the compliment?!?
As for your claim that I am in some state of Chrismatic error, did you ever think that it could be those who do not accept the gift of prayer language or even tongues that are caught up in the Charismatic error.
Thomas, what I like about mirrors are that if you look into one, you see yourself as others see you. When it comes to who is in error, I am trusting God to make that correction, not well intended folks who have never experienced this realm of the supernatural side of God.
We both agree that God is supernatural, at least I hope you believe that He is a supernatural God? And it is that ability to come forward in the supernatural realm that most believers tend to overlook just what He can do.
You, and others think He ended the passing on to mankind the supernatural gifts somewhere during the NT era. However, in Acts 2:17, the author repeats the prophecy of Joel 2:28 when he writes that [and I'll show this verse in several different versions]:
New International Version (©2011)
"
New Living Translation (©2007)
In the last days,' God says, 'I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
English Standard Version (©2001)
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams..."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;"
The one thing we both should be able to agree on is that no one knows when the last days are, which means, from the time this word was shared in Acts 2:17, the church started thinking and living as if it were in the "last days!" Thus, we are seeing the possibility of the gifts be handed out to the young and old, including the gift of prophecy.
In fact, the entire text speaks of God's supernatural outpouring upon mankind, and that would and should include tongues. I do not believe that the gifts of Pentecost ever ceased, because if they did, then the prophecy in Joel and here in Acts2:17-21, is null and void.
Let me share the entire text from the Joel and Acts word of prophecy:
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’"
There is nothing to say that my interpretation is any more wrong or right than anything you or others have quoted. I guess we'll all just have to wait until, like that neat old hymn says, "When we all get to heaven!" Then our eyes will be really opened.
However, until then, there is nothing that I am doing that is going to separate me from God's grace.
Thomas, when you get to heaven, look for me there, and we can discuss these issues in more depth! Shalom..... :wavey:
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I wonder how many times I will have to say the following here; I'll put it in bold so maybe it will be seen: I am not a cessationist.
But I am absolutely certain that the Charismatic interpretation, doctrine, and practice of the HS baptism and tongues is a sham, unbiblical, and not of God. As for experiencing it, oh, yes, I have in many worship services. It is manufactured, man-made, a dog-and-pony show, and does great harm to people, sometimes lifelong harm.
Tongues is not just a sign to unbelievers! One purpose, yes! But not the only one!
I do not need a sign to believe! I am already a believer! I see the sign to unbelievers different than you do.
I still do not think you understand my point! In both cases the speaker does not understood what the Holy Spirit is saying. Whether the Spirit speaks without vocal or with vocal!
Then please explain. Why do you need a sign?
You're not making any sense. If the Holy Spirit speaks for us with groanings that cannot be uttered, then of course we can't understand what the Holy Spirit is saying, because He isn't speaking through us.
As for the other, I've answered that fully. You simply refuse to address what I've written. If what is spoken isn't understood, then we are as barbarians, and we are to sit down and pray to God and to ourselves. If we still don't understand what is spoken, then we are as barbarians to ourselves.
Why won't you discuss what I've written? Instead, you simply fall back to "you don't understand." If that's true, then you should be able to address what I've written, provide scripture that refutes it, provide exhortation, and help me understand.
A yes or no answer is best for this question....
Does the Holy Spirit pray for us in Rom 8 and we do not know what he is praying? Yes or no???
Believers do not need a sign! I will ask you why does the unbeliever need tongues as a sign?
You are absolutly right!!!!!:thumbs:
You added "to ourselves!" The scriptures do not say that! It says to each other! Tongues in the church assembly is not to be done without the interpretation. But Paul spoke in tongue more than all...if he did not speak in tongues in church where did he speak in tongues?
My point was what you answered the first part of this post! If you can believe the Holy Spirit can pray for us (without us praying) and we do not know what he is saying as in Rom. 8...then why do you have a problem with the Holy Spirit praying through us and we do not understand him?