Statues

[billwald]

>Jesus said that God is spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth.

That describes an attitude, not a procedure. Which denomination or religion doesn't think they are worshipping in spirit and truth? Are they? How does anyone know what is inside another person's head?

Say that a simple and accurate lie detecter was invented. Should every local church member and applicant for baptism or membership be tested?

If I wasn't so cheap I would love to have myself tested to find out how big a liar I am.

 

[Zenas]

Do you have any guarantee that they are pictures of "Jesus"?
Can you verify it somehow?

That reminds me of joke I heard recently.

Kindergarten teacher: "Michael, what are you drawing?"
Pupil: "I'm drawing a picture of God."
Teacher: "But no one knows what God looks like."
Pupil: "They will as soon as I finish drawing this picture." :laugh:

 

[Zenas]

I believe it is wrong. God says not to make an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Why tempt yourself to feel even a little admiration for the object? Have you not heard of people wearing cross necklaces holding onto the cross for some kind of comfort? Have you not ever had a so-called picture of Jesus in your house, and you handle it with special care and respect, and even look at it while praying. Why would you look at the picture when Jesus is not in it, Jesus is in the hearts of the believer. That is not even a real picture of Jesus.

Although you haven't said so, your objection to statues seems to stem from the Second Commandment. If that is so, and I believe it is, why is the Second Commandment more sacrosanct than the Fourth Commandment which nearly all of us violate on a weekly basis?

As for the use of crosses and other symbols, and also pictures, they are nice reminders of our Savior. For many years I carried a cross in my pocket and each time I touched it I was reminded of our Lord's great act of love for us.

I cannot stand it that there are those so-called pictures of Jesus, pictures we are subjected often to throughout our lives since childhood. The Catholics with their rendition of what they claim Jesus looks like, the Mormons have theirs, and so on. When I pray to God and Jesus, I have to resist the Catholic Jesus and Mormon Jesus that come to my mind. Those are not real pictures of Jesus. Why would you want to look at a fake picture of Jesus?

I take it that you're OK with pictures of the Protestant Jesus?

 

[Walter]

Since I am currently studying the Catechism of the Catholic Church and for the purpose of this discussion, I looked up what it says constitutes idolatry. This is what I found:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (2113) explains:


Quote:
Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God

 

[DHK]

Since I am currently studying the Catechism of the Catholic Church and for the purpose of this discussion, I looked up what it says constitutes idolatry. This is what I found:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (2113) explains:


Quote:
Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God

According to their own definition that is exactly what they do with Mary. They have a statue of her, pray before it, though it represent her.
They do the same with a crucifix of Jesus. It is a representation of God. They pray before it.

It is no different than a Hindu praying before his statue of Ram. The statue is not the god, it only represents the god. The god, Ram, is a spirit. It is the same concept in Catholicism as it is in Hinduism. The two religions have much in common.

 

[Walter]

The state and city governments erect statues of the nation’s founding fathers to inspire patriotism and loyalty. Do you also consider this to be idolatry?

 

[DHK]

The state and city governments erect statues of the nation’s founding fathers to inspire patriotism and loyalty. Do you also consider this to be idolatry?

No, they are not religious icons. We don't bow down before them. We don't worship them in any way. The Ten Commandments, the Lord was saying "of Him," Thou shalt not make any graven image (of me). There was to be no representation of God, or anything that would take the place of God in worship such as Mary. All glory, honor and worship belongs to God alone.

 

[Moriah]

Although you haven't said so, your objection to statues seems to stem from the Second Commandment. If that is so, and I believe it is, why is the Second Commandment more sacrosanct than the Fourth Commandment which nearly all of us violate on a weekly basis?

Jesus is my Sabbath Rest.

As for the use of crosses and other symbols, and also pictures, they are nice reminders of our Savior.

No way do I need a picture, a cross, or any other material object to remind me of Jesus. His Spirit lives in my heart, how could I ever forget him?

For many years I carried a cross in my pocket and each time I touched it I was reminded of our Lord's great act of love for us.

That is what kind of things I was explaining what people do with their material objects. Did you really have to touch the cross each time to be reminded of the Lord’s great act of love for us?

I take it that you're OK with pictures of the Protestant Jesus?

I am not a Protestant. I am not okay with any religion’s depiction of what they think Jesus looks like. I do not want to look at a picture of someone that Jesus may not look anything like. True worshipers worship the Father in spirit and truth. Using a picture of a made up image to help one remember is not spiritual.

 

[Oldtimer]

The cross on our steeple proclaims to the world that we are a Christian church. While the name on the sign out front establishes that we are a Baptist congregation.

We have stained glass windows in our church depicting various representations of scenes from the Bible. There's a cross behind the altar. In one common room there are several pictures of our church that illustrate how the facilities have changed over the years. Inside the building there are two marble slabs engraved with the 10 Commandments. Outside there's an even larger version cast in concrete.

There's more....

Sometimes 3 white pillow candles are on the altar table.
Sometimes 3 crosses are erected for sunrise Resurrection Sunday services.
And, other items that proclaim to the world our faith.

If I were to wear a cross or hang one from my rear view mirror, the purpose would be the same. A visual representation of my belief in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit for others to see. A proclaimation, if you will.

The only time I've ever bowed before those stained glass windows is when I've helped dust the window sills.

Further, IMHO, there's a big difference between knowing a painting of Christ is an artist's speculation vs believing it's an actual portrait of our Lord. A quick glance at over a thousand years of art history is enough to show the huge variations in what each artist had in his/her imagination.

In my home kitchen there's a stained glass panel in front of the window with birds and flowers. I don't worship it. Just as I don't worship the stained glass depiction of Christ in a window at our church. Instead I appreciate each for what they portray. There is a difference.

It's what's in our hearts that counts, IMHO. There's a KJV Bible lying near my elbow as I type. A chronological version within reach, as well as a couple of daily devotional guides. If I chose to do so, any one of them could become an idol. An OBJECT of worship. As could the CD player and the audio Bible CD's beside it. Any of these objects can fail or be destroyed. My faith resides where it can never fail or be destroyed.

In closing this long winded thought process, my concern is for those who have true idols in their lives. Far too many around me will kneel before money, football players, flat screen TV's & preachers, new cars, Oprah, booze, and far too many other things to list. If the cross on the Christian flag in front of our church helps bring even one of them to Christ, the flag will have served its purpose.

Thanks for listening.

 

[JarJo]

These questions are so hard to discuss in this format because they need to be considered from so many angles. It isn't just a question of analyzing one or two bible verses. This question involves other huge questions, like
1. The christian interpretation of the law of moses, including the 10 commandments
2. The background of the second commandment
3. The purpose of christian art
4. A broad analysis of the sin of idolatry
5. The relationship of an individual to the church community

It's just too much to address even one of those points in a single post. But they all have to be addressed to really understand what someone believes and why.

I'll take a quick stab at #2, which seems to be the heart of the question.

The purpose of the second commandment was to forbid the Israelites to worship FALSE gods. Their God was an unseen god that transcended the created world. This was at the core of what made their religion superior to the rest of the world. Every other religion had a god that was a created physical thing, that could be represented as a statue. But the God of Israel transcends all of that. So a ban of statues and a ban of FALSE gods was the same thing.

When Jesus came, that changed. Now the transcendant God had taken on physical form. We still cant worship other gods, but the background of the 2nd commandment is different now. Now we do know what God looks like, and now we could have a picture of our God. There are still dangers - we cant treat the art work as a power apart from God, as if the image was an idol. But the strict ban of any picture or other representation has lost its original reason for being given. Things changed when Christ came into the world.

 

[Walter]

I asked the question about statues a city may have erected because I know of well meaning people who believe that to be idolatry as well.

However, on the issue of bowing. Is all bowing worship? And is that what Catholics are doing when they bow? Worshipping? In order to be fair, we need to know what the Catholic Church teaches. I previously posted that teaching and the answer to it was 'see, they go against this teaching all the time!'

Yes, bowing can be used as a posture in worship, but is all bowing worship. The Japanese would dispute this. Their bowing to each other in greeting is the equivalent of the Western handshake. Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In a similar way, can a Catholic kneel in front of a statue while praying and not be worshipping a statue or even praying to it? I think so. I know plenty of Baptists who kneel with a Bible in their hands while praying that are not worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

 

[Walter]

This has been discussed before and there were accusations that Catholics 'bow TO the representation on the wall of Jesus in the Stations of the Cross. This was posted by a former Catholic. It didn't take much investigating to find out this was wrong. Catholics bow during the Stations of the Cross when praying the words 'we adore you, Christ and we bless you, for by your Cross you have redeemed the world'. No Catholic is to be 'bowing' TO anything during The Stations of the Cross, they bow AT the words mentioned. It is an action which reflects adoration of Christ, not such a terrible thing and certainly not idolatry.

 

[Moriah]

These questions are so hard to discuss in this format because they need to be considered from so many angles. It isn't just a question of analyzing one or two bible verses. This question involves other huge questions, like
1. The christian interpretation of the law of moses, including the 10 commandments
2. The background of the second commandment
3. The purpose of christian art
4. A broad analysis of the sin of idolatry
5. The relationship of an individual to the church community
It's just too much to address even one of those points in a single post. But they all have to be addressed to really understand what someone believes and why.

Do you believe God knows His creation? Do you believe God is the only wise One? When God says do not…why would you want to challenge what God says? God says do not make an image…for us to watch ourselves closely. God knows you. Do what God says.

I'll take a quick stab at #2, which seems to be the heart of the question.
The purpose of the second commandment was to forbid the Israelites to worship FALSE gods. Their God was an unseen god that transcended the created world. This was at the core of what made their religion superior to the rest of the world. Every other religion had a god that was a created physical thing, that could be represented as a statue. But the God of Israel transcends all of that. So a ban of statues and a ban of FALSE gods was the same thing.

It is not the same thing. For you to say it is the same thing is something you should stop thinking. It is not just about worshiping false gods.

Tell me, are we worshiping the same God? My God says do not make an image. Your god says you can make an image. My God says do not make any image and do not bow to it. Your god says you can make an image and bow down to it, but you must say you are thinking of him. So, now, does it sound so far like we are worshiping the same God? No, we are not. You are now worshiping a false god.

When Jesus came, that changed. Now the transcendant God had taken on physical form. We still cant worship other gods, but the background of the 2nd commandment is different now.

No, Jesus does not say in the Bible since he came as a man we can make images of what we think he looks like. Now you are adding to God’s word. You are going against the word of God when you make images. You are worshiping another god when you say your God allows you to make images.

Now we do know what God looks like, and now we could have a picture of our God.

What you say right there is not truth. You are off the path. We do not have a clear description in the Bible of what Jesus looks like, just a few words in the Old Testament. From the Bible, we have no scripture describing exactly what Jesus looks like, don’t you think that if God thought we should know He would have even of had a statue of Jesus made and survive all this time?

There are still dangers - we cant treat the art work as a power apart from God, as if the image was an idol.

What you say here is a little disturbing. There is no power from God in that art. Why are you projecting power into those material objects?

But the strict ban of any picture or other representation has lost its original reason for being given. Things changed when Christ came into the world.

That is your wisdom. Man’s wisdom is rubbish. Do what God says.

 

[Walter]

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

In my opinion the Catholic Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.

 

[Walter]

The Jews were prohibeted to make any representations of God because he had not revealed himself in any visible form. Given the pagan culture surrounding them, the Israelites might have been tempted to worship God in the form of an animal or some natural object .

We see that later God did reveal Himself in visible forms, such as in Daniel 7:9: 'As I looked, thrones were placed and one that was Ancient of Days took his seat; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire.' Baptists make depictions of the Father under this form when they do illustrations of Old Testament prophecies don't we?

Then the Holy Spirit revealed Himself under at least two visible forms—that of a dove, at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32), and as tongues of fire, on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4). Don't we use these images when we are drawing or painting these biblical stories and also when we wear Holy Spirit lapel pins or place dove emblems on our cars? There may be some on this board who avoid making such representations of God. I beleive that would be consistant with what I have read posted by some. I have to admit, I have such representations in my home and in my car. Holy Spirit lapel pins and emblems in my car.

Idolatry?

 

[JarJo]

Do you believe God knows His creation? Do you believe God is the only wise One? When God says do not…why would you want to challenge what God says? God says do not make an image…for us to watch ourselves closely. God knows you. Do what God says.

Hi Moriah,

"God knows you... do what God says"...

The first thing I noticed when trying to understand the bible is that the Old Testament contains a whole bunch of things that "God says" that most Christians, with the possible exception of Seventh Day Adventists, don't follow. This almost led me to join the SDA church. But instead I looked further.

There are apparently some old testament rules that we're supposed to follow and some we're not supposed to follow. Everyone agrees on the 6th commandment but there is some disagreement on the 4th. Almost all Christians don't follow the mosaic law about what foods we can eat. It's confusing. This discrepancy has to be worked out before we even begin looking at verses with rules in the Old Testament. Until this gets worked out, there is no point in looking at what "God says" in the OT. It has to be looked at from within a framework.

So, I invite you to share with me your framework that explains in a consistent manner for each and every rule, how we are to understand the old testament rules as Christians. This will have to explain why the 4th commandment is not followed, the other 9 are followed in a literal manner, and the rest of the mosaic law is not followed. This framework of understanding should be general enough that it applies to the entire old testament and new testament and it should not be ad hoc. If you say there are exceptions because of this and that verse in the NT, that may be true, but it isn't a general rule we can use. A general rule doesn't have a bunch of exceptions, but rather it helps us explain the WHY instead of just the WHAT as in what rules do we follow or not follow. We need a systematic theology of old and new testaments that lets us make these calls.

Without that, I don't think we can even begin to consider what "God tells us" in the bible.

 

[Walter]

What I am finding in way of the Catholic perspective comes from studying both the Catechism and visiting Catholic apologetic websites.Why shouldn't someone study something or check things from both sides of an issue? Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow their members to read anti-J.W. material, not just discourage the reading of it. I have been told by some on this board that my reading Catholic apologetic material is wrong. I have not read non-Catholic rebutals to their positions other than on this board and the paltry few who non-Catholics on their blogs.

 

[Walter]

And another observation. What I am finding, especially with the opening post, is that people make assumptions as to what Catholics are doing and what they are worshipping. The assumption that the statues in Catholic Churches are there so that they can be worshipped, that incense is 'to' the statue or 'to' the crucifix' instead the censing around these objects being what Catholics say it is and that is as 'a symbol of prayer' just like the bilbical reason it was used. Psalm 141:3 "Let my prayers rise before you like incense"
To assume it was borrowed from pagan customs and not a carry over from Judaism is a huge assumption. Judaism had the use of both, statues and incense. God even gave the directives for their use in the temple.

In giving directives-the rubrics of liturgies- to bishops, priests and deacons concerning censing, I don't know how these directives could be done without using the language bowing TO or censing OF these objects without it sounding like the intent is to offer incense TO the object. These rubrics are not written to teach people about why incense is used but the ACTION of how it is used. Catholics say the intent is not TO it anymore than the incense was used TO objects in the temple but is as a symbol of prayer. I would rather give them the benefit of a doubt and believe they are not lying about why they use incense or why they bow. As I have said before, I think if Catholics are wrong about the real presence of Christ in the elements of bread and wine in the Eucharist then they are truly guilty of idolatry in genuflecting. I have heard ex-Catholics on this board say that Catholics genuflect TO the crucifix when entering and leaving church. They were not taught well as Catholics. The reason Catholics genuflect when entering and leaving church is in reverence of Christ true presence in the bread and wine reserved in the tabernacle near the crucifix and altar. However, I will say, if they are wrong about Christ real presence in the bread & wine, then I would say they are guilty of idolatry.

 

[Zenas]

Jesus is my Sabbath Rest.

Perhaps. But you’re still violating the Fourth Commandment by not worshiping on Saturday. I worship on Sunday also, but I do so because “the memory of man runneth not to the contrary”, i.e., tradition. In fact this tradition was started by the Catholic Church probably in the First Century. Similarly, the Catholic Church, to whom Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose, declared in 787 that icons are to be used for teaching and as an aid to worship. "By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new 'economy' of images." CCC 2131.

No way do I need a picture, a cross, or any other material object to remind me of Jesus. His Spirit lives in my heart, how could I ever forget him?

So Jesus is on your mind every waking minute of your life. I rather doubt that.

That is what kind of things I was explaining what people do with their material objects. Did you really have to touch the cross each time to be reminded of the Lord’s great act of love for us?

No, but unlike your rather questionable allegation, Jesus is not on my mind every minute of my life. I don’t really need reminders of Him but they are nice to have. I don’t really need spell check on my word processor either, but it’s nice to have also.

I am not a Protestant. I am not okay with any religion’s depiction of what they think Jesus looks like. I do not want to look at a picture of someone that Jesus may not look anything like. True worshipers worship the Father in spirit and truth. Using a picture of a made up image to help one remember is not spiritual.

Your profile doesn’t say what denomination you are but I’m pretty sure you’re not a Catholic. Therefore, you’re Protestant. Actually some of the things you have said on this thread tend to put you in the Church of Christ camp. For what it's worth, I mentioned the "Protestant Jesus" simply because Protestant artists have portrayed Jesus slightly differently than the Catholic artists and the Mormon artists.

 

[Moriah]

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

In my opinion the Catholic Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry.

The Catholic Church makes idols and bows to them. This is against God. We are supposed to watch ourselves closely, so that we may not become corrupt and make for ourselves an image of anything, and we are not to bow to those images. Catholics do all those things.