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- Thread starter Moriah
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WestminsterMan
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Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Esther 3:2 And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.
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That is not the issue! The issue is the prepositional phrase "IN Christ" alone. You on the other and do not beleive that justification is "IN Christ" meaning in His Personal provisions alone but in Christ PLUS your works - sacramental ordinances. You believe in a PARTICIPANT justification not a substitutionary justification.
WestminsterMan
New Member
The question was... "Is bowing to angels or to people acceptable to God?"
Based upon your response I must conclude that your answer is no.
But...
Genesis 19:1-5 1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
Genesis 23:6-8
6 "Sir, listen to us. You are a mighty prince among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our tombs. None of us will refuse you his tomb for burying your dead."
7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites. 8 He said to them, "If you are willing to let me bury my dead, then listen to me and intercede with Ephron son of Zohar on my behalf
Genesis 23:12-13
12 Again Abraham bowed down before the people of the land 13 and he said to Ephron in their hearing, "Listen to me, if you will. I will pay the price of the field. Accept it from me so I can bury my dead there."
Genesis 27:27-30
27 So he went to him and kissed him. When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said,
"Ah, the smell of my son
is like the smell of a field
that the LORD has blessed.
28 May God give you of heaven's dew
and of earth's richness—
an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
and those who bless you be blessed."
30 After Isaac finished blessing him and Jacob had scarcely left his father's presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting.
Genesis 33:1-4
Jacob Meets Esau
1 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two maidservants. 2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother. 4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept.
1 Kings 1:31
Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, "May my lord King David live forever!"
1 Kings 8:54
When Solomon had finished all these prayers and supplications to the LORD, he rose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had been kneeling with his hands spread out toward heaven.
Numbers 22:31
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
Exodus 11:8
All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave.” Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.
Notice that there is a difference between bowing/kneeling as a show of respect versus bowing/kneeling as a sign of worship. Thus intent DOES matter. However, if one makes the claim that when Catholics bow/kneel their intent doesn't matter (as many have done here), then by necessity one must also conclude that in all of these verses above, those bowing and kneeling were worshiping someone or something other than God regardless of their intent.
Oops...
WM
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Just saying it isn't the issue doesn't relieve you of your problem.
Apparently, you are unable to read and comprehend well enough to know what I believe.
WM
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You go out of your way to find reasons to disobey God. You go out of your way to try and find scriptures that will support your disobedience. No way, that is not going to happen.
Catholics bow to the works of their hands. Catholics bow to their fellow believer, the Pope.
Therefore, tell us, how do YOU obey God when He says do not bow to the works of your hands.
I would also like to know how YOU obey God when the Bible says we are fellow servants and not to bow to each other.
I will tell you how I obey. I obey by not making an image and bowing to it. I obey by not bowing to any other fellow Christian. That is how I obey God. Now it is your turn. Tell us how you obey.
Moriah, I'm not sure that WestminsterMan is going out of the way to find reasons. These examples seem like good ones. The English bow or curtsey when meeting their royalty. At the end of a ballet class, students will also curtsey or bow to the teacher and the pianist to show gratitude. Etc. That is out of respect and honor, not worship. Is that wrong? Worshipping a statue or a person is absolutely wrong. You say that is what Catholics are doing. Catholics deny that. I believe they know what and who they worship.
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Yes way!
Now do you or do you not believe that all of scripture is inspired? If you do and you are being intellectually honest, then you have nowhere to go with your line of reasoning (so called). Thus, I will state this again (and I will keep stating it until you can give me a cogent answer)...
Either you believe that everyone listed in those versus - regardless of intent - was guilty of idolatry when they bowed or kneeled to someone or something other than God, or you must concede that intent really does matter and they were only doing so out of respect. Ultimately, if you agree with the latter, then you must also concede that when Catholics tell you that their intent in kneeling or bowing is a sign of respect (except to God alone to whom worship is reserved) that this is in fact what they are doing. I don't think anyone here would agree with the former position.
Sooo...
Are you going to comment meaningfully on the premise here, or just wallow in the disingenuous hypocritical bed into which you have placed yourself?
We await with baited breath...
Yep – and so did all of those towering biblical characters in the verses that I gave you – you know… those verses inspired by God.
How I worship and how you worship isn’t the issue. Now stop trying to wriggle out of your uncomfortable corner and answer me. I think that if you could have, you already would have. Now lay there and wallow in it!
WM
You defend others sins. Westminster is going out of his way to find scriptures that he hopes will give him reasons to sin. He bows to the works of man's hands, and he bows to a fellow Catholic believer.
Instead of making excuses to why he sins, tell him to stop sinning.
Do not bow in respect and honor to a statue. Do not bow in respect in honor to the Pope. It is not so hard to obey. Stop doing what God hates.
Yes way!
Now do you or do you not believe that all of scripture is inspired? If you do and you are being intellectually honest, then you have nowhere to go with your line of reasoning (so called). Thus, I will state this again (and I will keep stating it until you can give me a cogent answer)...
Either you believe that everyone listed in those versus - regardless of intent - was guilty of idolatry when they bowed or kneeled to someone or something other than God, or you must concede that intent really does matter and they were only doing so out of respect. Ultimately, if you agree with the latter, then you must also concede that when Catholics tell you that their intent in kneeling or bowing is a sign of respect (except to God alone to whom worship is reserved) that this is in fact what they are doing. I don't think anyone here would agree with the former position.
Sooo...
Are you going to comment meaningfully on the premise here, or just wallow in the disingenuous hypocritical bed into which you have placed yourself?
We await with baited breath...
Yep – and so did all of those towering biblical characters in the verses that I gave you – you know… those verses inspired by God.
How I worship and how you worship isn’t the issue. Now stop trying to wriggle out of your uncomfortable corner and answer me. I think that if you could have, you already would have. Now lay there and wallow in it!
WM
God says do not bow to the works of your hands! YOU BOW TO THE WORKS OF MAN"S HANDS.
God says do not bow to fellow servants. YOU BOW TO FELLOW SERVANTS.
HOW DO YOU OBEY? ANSWER, AND REPENT.
WestminsterMan
New Member
Stop dodging the question and respond to post #249! It's a simple thing... a "yes" or a "no" will suffice.
Yet, here it is again!
Now do you or do you not believe that all of scripture is inspired? If you do and you are being intellectually honest, then you have nowhere to go with your line of reasoning (so called). Thus, I will state this again (and I will keep stating it until you can give me a cogent answer)...
Either you believe that everyone listed in those versus - regardless of intent - was guilty of idolatry when they bowed or kneeled to someone or something other than God, or you must concede that intent really does matter and they were only doing so out of respect. Ultimately, if you agree with the latter, then you must also concede that when Catholics tell you that their intent in kneeling or bowing is a sign of respect (except to God alone for whom worship is reserved) that this is in fact what they are doing. I don't think anyone here would agree with the former position.
Sooo...
Are you going to comment meaningfully on the premise here, or just wallow in the disingenuous hypocritical bed into which you have placed yourself?
We await with baited breath.
WM
:applause::applause:
WestminsterMan
New Member
Then how do you explain all of those towering biblical characters doing that very thing? They bow and/or kneel to humans, angels, etc.
Shouting and preaching won't get you off the hook this time. Answer the question...
Here it is again!
Now do you or do you not believe that all of scripture is inspired? If you do and you are being intellectually honest, then you have nowhere to go with your line of reasoning (so called). Thus, I will state this again (and I will keep stating it until you can give me a cogent answer)...
Either you believe that everyone listed in those versus - regardless of intent - was guilty of idolatry when they bowed or kneeled to someone or something other than God, or you must concede that intent really does matter and they were only doing so out of respect. Ultimately, if you agree with the latter, then you must also concede that when Catholics tell you that their intent in kneeling or bowing is a sign of respect (except to God alone for whom worship is reserved) that this is in fact what they are doing. I don't think anyone here would agree with the former position.
Sooo...
Are you going to comment meaningfully on the premise here, or just wallow in the disingenuous hypocritical bed into which you have placed yourself?
We await with baited breath...
WM
When two angels come to you at Sodom, and your name is Lot, you can bow down with your face to the ground. When your name is Abraham, and you are before the Hitties, you can bow down before the people. When your name is Isaac and your father is Abraham, your father Abraham can tell you May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. When you are Bathsheba, and you are before King David, you can bow low with your face to the ground and, kneeling before the king. When you are Jacob, and you meet your brother Esau, you can bow down to the ground seven times. When you are Balaam, and you see the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn, then you can bow low and fall facedown.
Do you understand now?
When you are a Christian, and you are around a fellow Christian, never bow down to him. When you are a Christian, do not bow down to the works of man’s hands.
Now tell me, how do you obey God?
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So, to bow or curtsey when meeting royalty out of respect or at the end of a ballet class, students will also curtsey or bow to the teacher and the pianist to show gratitude, or in Japan when two people bow to each other when they meet, that is wrong? Intent never matters? No Christian should ever bow out of respect?
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I would not bow to royalty. As for the ballet class, they are bowing to the people for clapping. As for Japanese customs, I am not Japanese. The American custom is to shake hands.
You should NEVER bow to the works of your hands.
You should NEVER bow to another Christian.
Are you going to start obeying God?
What problem? I agreed with you that most Christians believe that salvation is in Christ alone. However, that is not the issue in regard to what you attempted to respond to which our statement "BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone IN Christ alone." The prepositional phrase "IN Christ alone" has to do with the proper object of justifying faith.
You are trying to save face and change the subject. First you charged wrongly that our statement is oxymoronic. We proved that is a false charge by pointing out the terms "grace, faith and Christ" are not synonomous terms but refer to distinct aspects in regard to justification before God. Those distinct aspects are further distinguished by differing prepositions assigned to them by the Scriptures:
1. "by grace" - Eph. 2:8; Rom. 3:24
2. "through faith" - Ephe. 2:8
3. "in Christ" - Rom. 3:26
The Biblical fact is that "grace" ALONE is the sole basis of justification as the only other alternative is "works" and grace excludes that - Rom. 11:6
The Biblical fact is that "faith" ALONE is the sole means of receiving justification as the only altermative is "works" and that is expressly denied - Rom. 3:19-20
The Biblical fact is that "Christ" ALONE is the sole OBJECT of justifying faith - Rom. 3:27-28
However, in order to save face, you now turn the conversation by jerking the prepositional phrase "in Christ alone" out of the context we placed it.
It was not placed in the context of general "salvation" but "Justification." In its context with justification it is distinct but yet inseparable from the whole statement "BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone IN Christ alone" justifies the ungodly. Thus the preposition phrase in the context of our statement denies there is any other object but Christ and his finished work that justifies the ungodly "through faith alone."
The fact is, that you do not believe Christ and his works ALONE are completely sufficient to justify anyone through faith without YOUR OWN works.
So now, you have changed the subject from the charge that our statement is oxymoronic to a theological discussion about the phrase "in Christ alone" but jerked out of its context.
1. We proved it is not oxymoronic but the term "alone" is restricted to each individual aspect (grace basis, faith means, Christ object).
2. We proved the prepositional affinity with each is Biblical ("by his grace" - Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8; "through faith" - Eph. 2:8; "in Christ" - Rom. 3:26,27)
3. We proved they are distinct but yet inseparably related to justification - Rom. 3:24-28.
I'm just asking questions, I do my best to obey God. However, you are wrong about the ballet class. They are bowing to the pianist and to their teacher. I never said you live in Japan, what IF you did? The hand shake answer is a bit of a cope out, eh?
In most cultures, notably in African cultures bowing is seen as a sign of respect, the youth will bow when greeting an elder. Nevertheless to most Americans, bowing is seen as a sign of weakness. Are the African Christians guilty of disobeying God?
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It is your turn to answer questions.
Are you going to stop bowing to the works of your hands?
Are you going to be a Christian who obeys God and stop bowing to servants of the Lord?
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