Still waiting for an answer

[Ps104_33]

One of the verses that Roman Catholics like to use to support oral tradition is John 20:30

[30] And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

But lets not forget verse 31.

[31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Notice that it says: But these are written

Only that which is essential to our salvation needed to be recorded! Any apochryphal stories that might be passed down to us are not to be part of Church doctrine.

 

[GH]

Dear Psalm,

I am a former Catholic and raised my children in the Catholic faith. My own experience has been that the Catholic Church as well as all other Christian denominations have been a tutor for me - much like the law was for the Jews. Until Jesus appeared in my life and became my hope of glory.

In His indescribable Love, Diane

 

[Ps104_33]

give up?

 

[GH]

Give up talkin' about the Lord? Never

 

[Dualhunter]

Just a reminder of what the challenge was:

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
Considering all the rehashing thats being diccussed on "oral tradition" I thought I would ask a question that I asked before and never received an answer. Please spare me all of the copy and pasted 10,000 word dissertations from Thomas Aquinas and the like. Here goes:

CAN YOU NAME ONE ORAL, EXTRABIBLICAL TRADITION, DEMONSTRABLY TRACED TO THE APOSTOLIC AGE, WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR THE FAITH AND PRACTICE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.

I think the key phrase here is "necessary for the faith and practice of the Church....."

You must also be able to historically prove which Apostle the tradition originated or it is resting on sinking sand.

Now name one and we can talk.

 

[Astralis]

It's been posted - you refuse to accept that and use your own interpretation of scripture. Where does the Bible tell us that one doctrine is above another? I guess if you believe in Faith Alone then simple Christianity is good enough for you.

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Astralis:
It's been posted - you refuse to accept that and use your own interpretation of scripture. Where does the Bible tell us that one doctrine is above another? I guess if you believe in Faith Alone then simple Christianity is good enough for you.

He clarified what he previously stated in the original challenge and he asked that people not try to make a simple topic huge by answering with a novel instead of simply answering the question.

"Is there anything Roman Catholics must believe in order to obtain salvation that is not found in the Scriptures."

"I thought I asked all of you to refrain from all the copy and pasted plagiarised 10,000 word tomes.

You ought to know enough about what you believe without resorting to something that most of us have little time or desire to read."

 

[Ps104_33]

It's been posted - you refuse to accept that and use your own interpretation of scripture. Where does the Bible tell us that one doctrine is above another? I guess if you believe in Faith Alone then simple Christianity is good enough for you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HUH????

 

[Ps104_33]

Can some Catholic on this board please answer this one simple question?

"Is there anything Roman Catholics must believe in order to obtain salvation that is not found in the Scriptures."

 

[Dualhunter]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
Can some Catholic on this board please answer this one simple question?

"Is there anything Roman Catholics must believe in order to obtain salvation that is not found in the Scriptures."

Restate the question in 10,000 words and maybe you'll get an answer

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It's been posted - you refuse to accept that and use your own interpretation of scripture. Where does the Bible tell us that one doctrine is above another? I guess if you believe in Faith Alone then simple Christianity is good enough for you.
---------------------------------------

HUH???? </font>[/QUOTE]Ps104_33 --
I would like to ask a favor of you, if you can. I
am very interested in this thread you started and
in what you, as well as others, have to say. But
because of the long line typed in the post I
copied above, I canot read the posts on this
second page, nor can anyone else who uses
WebTV. The lines falll too far off the screen to
the right.

Would you mind shortening the line, as I did
above, so that I can read what is here? Please?
8o) Thank you!!

 

[Abiyah]

Astralis --

I just read your answer to me on page one and
thought I should respond. You wrote:

The "sweet name of Jesus" doesn't give you
automatic faith. I live in Texas and know
many Jesus' and they don't inspire me to
believe in them.

That is very trite and cute, but you are writing to
a transplanted Californian who understands
these things. 8o) Furthermore, we at my
synagogue call Him Y'shua, not Jesus. Now,
there are a few Y'shuas when we read the
Scriptures, but there is only One who is King
of kings and Lord of lords. None of these other
ones inspire us, and we know enough not to
worship the others.

So my question is what do you propose is
that element which should give me "automatic
faith" and "inspire me to believe"? It is certainly
not some dusty creed written in c.e. 325, nor is
it some man, now sainted by the RCC, who
died in c.e. 215.

I do not accept the creeds; they hold absolutely
no value for me. What cannot be proven by
the Scriptures remains Totally Irrelevant to my
life, as are the writings and ideas of Luther and
many others.

[ August 13, 2002, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Astralis]

So my question is what do you propose is
that element which should give me "automatic
faith" and "inspire me to believe"?

It's all of that and more!

Read the creed. If you believe all of it, chances are you're a Christian. If you disagree with parts of it then how can you pick and choose? Belief in the Trinity is the major content of the creeds and there are Oneness Christians who I would not classify as being Christian if they reject parts of the Trinity, although the Trinity is mysterious and difficult to explain.

[ August 13, 2002, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Astralis ]

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Astralis:

It's all of that and more!

Read the creed. If you believe all of it, chances are you're a Christian. If you disagree with parts of it then how can you pick and choose? Belief in the Trinity is the major content of the creeds and there are Oneness Christians who I would not classify as being Christian if they reject parts of the Trinity, although the Trinity is mysterious and difficult to explain.

Astralis --

I understand that the creeds work for your belief
system, but they do not work for mine. 8o) I would
respond, "read the Bible. If you disagree with any-
thing in it, then your religion, to me, is suspect." 8o)

I know that many religions use the Catholic creeds,
including my husband's church. Some of them are
even in his hymnal, and the day may come when I will
once again have to decline from joining with his con-
gregation, should we be asked to stand and read a
creed. I will not do it, as I will not join with Commun-
ion there. While I love and respect the people at his
church, and really apprecdiate his pastor, I cannot
partake in some of the practices--including Lent.
Neither will my husband.

I will say this: my sister left Wicca and found our
God in a RCatholic church. Although she has
since moved on, I appreciate that she is a believer
now.

[ August 13, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Astralis]

I first glance, I would say that if you disagree with anything in the Bible then your religion is suspect too but Oneness Christians use the Bible Alone to refute the Trinity.

In fact, the Arian Heresy was defended using the Bible alone.

How can we know that it is interpreted correctly?

I think the creed can help.

 

[Astralis]

CAN YOU NAME ONE ORAL, EXTRABIBLICAL TRADITION, DEMONSTRABLY TRACED TO THE APOSTOLIC AGE, WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR THE FAITH AND PRACTICE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST.

Back to this question.

I posted this question on my message board and got some responses that I will share:

from Matt:
Interesting question. Sounds a bit baited. On the one hand, if you say, "Yes," then it implies that the Catholic Church has "added" to Scriptural teachings a system upon which you "earn" your salvation. On the other hand, if you say "No," then it implies that Scripture alone should be our sole rule of faith -- for after all, if everything we need for salvation is in Scriptures, why do we need anything else.

Of course, the question itself implies that there is a certain thing, or are certain things, that you must do to be saved -- and once you check these off your to do list, you've done it.

As it turns out, this is a very Protestant question, and not really reflect the Catholic understanding of things. So if a Protestant is asking this of a Catholic, and wants an honest answer, we need to first look at what a Protestant means by salvation, versus the Catholic meaning of the word. Otherwise we may wind up talking past eachother.

Protestants (most main line Protestants anyway) see salvation as a one time event that happens to you during this life time here on earth. All you need to do in order to be "saved" is to repent of yoru sins, accept Jesus Christ as your "personal Lord and saviour" and believe in Him. Thier primary proof text for this, showcased on home made signs on highways across America, is John 3:16.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Using this definition, it would be unthinkable to a Protestant that anything that we might need for salvation could be found outside of the Bible.

Catholics have a different understanding of salvation, however. We view salvation as an ultimate goal. We are saved when we are forever united with Christ in heaven. Our "salvation" then is the process that leads up to that eternal reward. Rather than one moment, one profession of faith, we see our entire journey here on earth as the path upon which we work out our salvation. The favourite texts of Catholics on this is Phil 2:12, where Paul says to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Of course there are more Scriptural passages that speak of salvation being an ultimate goal, not a one time event. Matthew twice quotes Christ saying this exact thing in his gospel.

"he who endures to the end will be saved." Mt 10:22
"he who perseveres to the end will be saved." Mt 24:13

There are more Scriptural passages I could quote, of course, but my goal here is not to write a thesis on the Catholic understanding of Salvation, but to illustrate how Catholics and Protestants mean different things by this word, so a question such as "Is there anything Roman Catholics must believe in order to obtain salvation that is not found in the Scriptures?" will be difficult to answer unless we define first what we are talking about.

I'm going to break here and post this first part of the message, so it isn't lost, then post the last half seperately.
Pax,
Matt

from Theophilus:

I would say no. All our sacraments and our beliefs in what leads to Salvation are grounded in Scripture--perhaps not a Protestant interpretation thereof, but in Scripture nonetheless.

The question that begs is, well, then, why do you believe more than is in Scripture, if all that is needed for Salvation is found in Scripture?

The answer is that, while what we must believe in order to be saved is in Scripture, it is not altogether clear what is necessary to Salvation in Scripture and what is not. Additionally, the way we must live out our lives day to day is guided by a living, historical Church, whose doctrines related to faith and morality have developed over time. What is written in Scripture and the logical results thereof are not always clear (witness the many different interpretations of Scripture from various denominations), and we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church, to help interpret Scripture, so that we follow the right path.

For example, does the person who asked the question believe that belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation, since it is not expressly defined in the Bible? If not, we should ask why the person believes in it. How does the person decide which of the many different Scriptural citations that talk about what is necessary to be saved is the right one? How does the person figure out what is meant by justification vs redemption vs salvation?

My point is that, like the Constitution, Scripture requires interpretation and application to the world, and those are the responsbility of the Church. One cannot, on his own, read Scripture and fully understand what is necessary for Salvation.

from Matt:
To answer the question, "Is there anything Roman Catholics must believe in order to obtain salvation that is not found in the Scriptures?" we should see just what the Catholic Church has to say about how we are saved.

For this, we turn to the Catechism. Paragraph 161 speaks of the necessity of faith for our salvation.

quote:

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining salvation.* "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end.'"**


*here a footnote directs you to Mk 16:16, Jn 3:36, Jn 6:40
** here a footnote directs you to Dei Filius 3: DS 3012, Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13, Heb 11:6, and the Council of Trent: DS 1532.

So, what is necessary for our salvation? Our faith. And what is the source of our faith? Again, we turn to the Catechism, paragraph 169.

quote:
Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation."


Salvation is a free gift given to us by God. He alone can save us. But to obtain that salvation we must live in faith. This faith is found in the Church. The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Tim 3:15) and gaurds the faith "that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).

So, when we say that we are saved through our faith, we do not speak of a single act of a profession of faith. We speak of a lifetime of living the faith, that Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles and which has been handed down to us -- and includes teachings such as the forgiveness of sins, the sacramental graces of baptism, the Real PResence in the Eucharist, etc.

Only God is our judge and whether or not any particular soul is saved is His to determine. The full revelation of His truth is to be found in the Catholic Church and so the Catholic Church is the primary and best vehicle for salvation. Other Christian bodies, and even non-Christion religions, have elements of truth -- and God is not bound by denominational lines when he dispenses His grace. But it is the Catholic teaching that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

This does not mean that one has to be on the rolls of a Catholic parish to be saved. This means that anyone who is saved, Catholic or not, is saved through the graces God makes available in the Catholic Church. Those outside of the Catholic Church who are saved, are saved in spite of their separation, not because of it.

How does all of this answer the original question? The teachings of the Catholic Church regarding salvation are based entirely on what can be found in Sacred Scripture. This much can be seen in the Catechism, where the Church's teachings on salvation are laid out, and Scriptural references are abundantly given. In fact the Catechism says, in paragraph 124:

quote:

"The Word of God, which is the power of God for salvation of everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament" which hand on the ultimate truth of God's Revelation.


So, the one word answer to the question at hand is "Yes." Everyting that we must beleive in order to obtain our salvation is found in Scripture. But this is not to say that Scripture is our sole rule of faith, and this is not to say that to obtain salvation one merely has to beleive in x, y, and z. One must live out that faith, and seek every day to live in a manner worthy of one who follows Christ.

[ August 13, 2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Astralis ]

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Astralis:
I first glance, I would say that if you disagree with anything in the Bible then your religion is suspect too but Oneness Christians use the Bible Alone to refute the Trinity.

In fact, the Arian Heresy was defended using the Bible alone.

How can we know that it is interpreted correctly?

I think the creed can help.

Ah! Agreed! The CoC has the same Bibles, as
do many others we might call cults, and the
Mormons use the KJV exclusively, plus their
additions. Obviously, many Christiaan churches
use it to prove things I would disagree with, and
there are many Messianics (they range from
Charismatic to orthodox) with whom I would
not agree, all using the same Bibles to prove
their points. I, myself, have wanted so much to
believe certain thinigs in the past, and I could
point to Scriptures to prove my points.

But if I tried to depend upon the creeds, rather
than the Bible, to build my salvation upon, how
could these creeds be a firmer foundation than
the Word of God? Why must I rely upon a rein-
terpretation of what my God says, when He
left this book for me to follow? I get aggravated
when I listen to a presidential speech, then the
newscasters and political analysts come on
afterward and try to tell me what the President
"really" said. 8o)

 

[Dualhunter]

Anyone want to answer the original question according to the original conditions?

 

[Astralis]

Dualhunter,

The question is answered in my post two or three posts behind this one. That is the explanation. I'll post it again if you want.

 

[Ps104_33]

The question is answered in my post two or three posts behind this one. That is the explanation. I'll post it again if you want.

Can you just copy and paste one example so I dont have to sift through half the Catholic Cathecism. JUst one Example of one doctrine that a RC Must believe that is not found in Scripture.