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Still waiting on a answer....

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Most theologians I know believe the truth that Romans 9-11 is dealing with the Jews, not individual salvation. The calvinist theologians need for it to be individual salvation, but in context of the enitre book it's clear that it is not.

Please make a list of the top 50 theologians before the year 1900 that held to freewill.

1) Wesley
2) Finney <<<( Its hard for me to call this guy a real theologian)

48 more and your have it.
 
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johnp.

New Member
Really! How So?

They make up their own meanings as well GordonSlocum. :) For instance: Did Bush get elected because he elected himself? Why has the meaning of election changed into something alien?

The US is a democracy and Americans understand what the word 'election' means, why do they tried to kid us that the word doesn't mean what it means?

The Jw's are like that. Trying to kid us with false meanings when the obvious would bite you if it was a dog. But they pick up the ones that want what they offer as free will does.

Pelagius James. Is that two or three? :)

john.
 
Does Darwin have any relevance to this issue? Who is obsessed with Calvin on this board? Why don't you stick with Scripture and drop this genetic argument?
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
Please make a list of the top 50 theologians before the year 1900 that held to freewill.

1) Wesley
2) Finney <<<( Its hard for me to call this guy a real theologian)

48 more and your have it.
Why is 1900 the magic number? Was "classic" Holy Spirit better than modern day Holy Spirit?
 

npetreley

New Member
webdog said:
Why is 1900 the magic number? Was "classic" Holy Spirit better than modern day Holy Spirit?

Maybe we're living in the time of apostasy, when men are falling away from the true faith, as foretold in scripture. Maybe not, but that's a possible reason for the cutoff point.
 

GordonSlocum

New Member
johnp. said:
They make up their own meanings as well GordonSlocum. :) For instance: Did Bush get elected because he elected himself? Why has the meaning of election changed into something alien?

The US is a democracy and Americans understand what the word 'election' means, why do they tried to kid us that the word doesn't mean what it means?

The Jw's are like that. Trying to kid us with false meanings when the obvious would bite you if it was a dog. But they pick up the ones that want what they offer as free will does.

Pelagius James. Is that two or three? :)

john.

Why did Bush Get Elected? He first made a decision to present Himself for the office. Second, enough people voted for Him. Third, He was ask if He would accept the nomination at the convention. Fourth, Election is not just based upon arbitrary choice. People are elected on the BASIS of something all the time. Christians are Elected on the basis of their faith in Christ.

The problem with Calvinistic thinking is this: It is wooden literal, not normal literal.

Gordon
 

Allan

Active Member
I started to respond but decided that ... there is no point in it. No one is listening anyway.
 
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Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
Why is 1900 the magic number? Was "classic" Holy Spirit better than modern day Holy Spirit?
Was asked on the last page...

Has Calvinism been universally accepted until recently

Plus you added...

Most theologians I know believe the truth that Romans 9-11 is dealing with the Jews, not individual salvation.

And now we have Darwin being compared to Calvin on the table, :)

So it is fair to ask who has changed...and who are these theologians? I would say 95% that you would list, come from after Darwin.

BTW...I have my list ready to go, when I see yours. Being that I recognize that this is a daunting task to list 50 respected free will theologians before 1900, I will reduce this number to 25.

You can thank me later. :)

anyone up for it????
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
GordonSlocum said:
.......................Christians are Elected on the basis of their faith in Christ.
Gordon

Dead wrong.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; The Ephesian believers, who actually existed unless you want to deny, like that lunatic president of Iran that Jews who were slaughtered by Hitler did not exist, were as dead in sins and trespasses as dead can be, no feeling of remorse, no feeling of guilt, not knowing they were in that condition;

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(A continuation of verse one, showing how these children of God in times past walked in the same trespasses and sins according to the ways of this world, under the influence of Satan, the same influence that even at this present time is at work in the ungodly;}


[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires F4 of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (The ungodly among whom the Ephesians lived and cavorted with, satisfying the mind and the flesh, the ungodly who by nature were children of wrath [which the Ephesians were not], like everyone else who are not of God)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(But God, because of the great love which He had for the Ephesians)

[/FONT]2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

(Even when the Ephesians [and those whom He loved], were dead in sins, uncaring, unmindful, enoying fleshly and spiritual sins, unrepentant, have (not will, not shall, but have) regenerated them, brought them back to life, caused them to be born again, and, oh, by the way, you are saved by grace)

To be elected on the basis of your faith in Christ is to be elected by merit, and makes God a respecter of persons.
To be able to exercise faith in Christ is the result of being "born from above", enlightened by the light, as you yourself said in your other post, now closed, and to be born from above is to be born by the will of God, again, as you yourself said in your other post.

If one is elected on the basis of his faith in Christ, it follows therefore, according to your thinking, that God causes you to be born again, and then elects you because now you have faith in Christ as a result of your being born again.

Mark that I am not putting words in your mouth, or misinterpreting your doctrine.
I have simply put into thought and sentence what you have said in your own posts.

On the other hand Paul has been very consistent with his theology. God foreknew, predestinated, called, justified and then glorified, as he wrote to the Romans. And now he writes in the beginning of his letter to the Ephesians:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Please don't apply your freewheeling free willing logic to these verses by saying that God foresaw the faith of individuals and based on that foreseen faith elected them in Christ.

Because that makes God a respecter of persons, respecting persons on the basis of their faith, when the Bible clearly says "not by works of righteousnesses which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5), a faith which He himself gifted them with (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, now, that thickens your broth, doesn't it ?


First He sends the Light to enlighten all men.
Then, He causes the light to really light up some, but not all.
Then, He causes this really lit up ones to be born again.
Then, He gives them the gift of faith.
Then, He elects them according to the gift which He gave them, after He Himself caused their rebirth.

Now, who has a puppet master God ?


 
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Jarthur001

Active Member
Originally Posted by webdog
Why is 1900 the magic number? Was "classic" Holy Spirit better than modern day Holy Spirit?
Was asked on the last page...

Quote:
Has Calvinism been universally accepted until recently

Plus you added...

Quote:
Most theologians I know believe the truth that Romans 9-11 is dealing with the Jews, not individual salvation.

And now we have Darwin being compared to Calvin on the table,

So it is fair to ask who has changed...and who are these theologians? I would say 95% that you would list, come from after Darwin.

BTW...I have my list ready to go, when I see yours. Being that I recognize that this is a daunting task to list 50 respected free will theologians before 1900, I will reduce this number to 25.

You can thank me later.

anyone up for it????

Humm should I drop the number down again??

Being that I'm a nice guy, how about 15? List the top 15 theologians that held to "free will" before the year 1900. I'll add a few to help.

1) Pelagius
2) Caelestius
3) James/Jacob Arminius
4) Wesley..Methodism
5) Fletcher another from the Wesleyan / Methodism Tradition
6) Adam Clark flaming Methodist
7) Phoebe Palmer (the only lady on the list)...Wesleyan / Methodism / Holiness Tradition
8) Henry Orton Wiley.. from the Holiness movement

9) Finney ....I saved this guy for last, for he came back to Pelagianism as we see it still growing today. Check out the link below..
A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing

Now that is 9...all you need now is 6 more.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I'll just keep waiting until you supply them, you're doing a great job! :)

I see you are into history pretty heavy. After this can you do the 1800's?
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
I'll just keep waiting until you supply them, you're doing a great job! :)

I see you are into history pretty heavy. After this can you do the 1800's?

That is the end of the list. Kinda short...is it not? And...which ones would you call "great" doctors of the Word of God? AND.....Why are there no Baptist?????? :)

NONE believe in OSAS...which shows that given a deep study of Gods word...OSAS is not part of a free will system of man.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I thought I'd let you finish your list before I informed you again of what I said originally that you had a problem with...
Most theologians I know believe the truth that Romans 9-11 is dealing with the Jews, not individual salvation.
I don't personally know any non cal theologians over the age of 107... :)
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Blammo said:
And... ? :confused:

Has Calvinism been universally accepted until recently? Or, have the only people to oppose the calvinist theology, past and present, been stupid?

I did not want to reply to this earlier until the "great list of freewillers" ran out. You see the list...its rather small.

Now to address you proper...

Yes..this is a new found movement idea. Freewillism was always...always rejected till Arminius put a twist on the subject of salvation. It stated with Arminius saying man could reject Gods call. Before this time, nearly all in the faith claimed man could not say no to God, if God called him. No one believed all men were called by God. Though everyone in the faith was not Augustinian in nature, most did not agree with predestination as Augustin had said it was, they still felt God was in control and man must respond if they were called by God. That is all but Pelagius and Caelestius who said man will was not dead at all from the fall, but was free to do as he wished. This of course was rejected by all, till Arminius came on stage with this new idea rejecting Gods call.

The list of well know men holding to this doctrine in the early years from 1600s to the 1900s are very small. Very, very few Baptist. Now a days many Baptist on this board go back to Pelagius and have no problem with it. Sad indeed.

Below is a clip from...
Systematic Theology - Volume II
Author: Hodge, Charles (1797-1878)

6. The Remonstrant Doctrine.
In the early part of the seventeenth century Arminius introduced a new system of doctrine in the Reformed churches of Holland, which was formally condemned by the Synod of Dort which sat from November 1618 to May 1619. Against the decisions of that Synod the advocates of the new doctrine presented a Remonstrance, and hence they were at first called Remonstrants, but in after years their more common designation has been Arminians. Arminianism is a much lower form of doctrine than Lutheranism. In all the points included under Anthropology and Soteriology it is a much more serious departure from the system of Augustinianism which in all ages has been the life of the church. The Arminians taught, —

1. That all men derive from Adam a corrupt nature by which they are inclined to sin. But they deny that this corruption is of the nature of sin. Men are responsible only for their own voluntary acts and the consequences of such acts. “Peccatum originale nec habent (Remonstrantes) pro peccato proprie dicto . . . . nec pro malo, quod per modum proprie dictæ pœnæ ab Adamo in posteros dimanet, sed pro malo infirmitate.”283283Apologia pro Confessione Remonstrantum , edit. Leyden, 1630, p. 84. Limborch284284 Theologia Christiana , V. xv. 15, edit. Amsterdam, 1715, p. 439. says, “Atqui illa physica est impuritas (namely, the deterioration of our nature derived from Adam), non moralis: et tantum abest ut sit vere ac proprie dictum peccatum.”

2. They deny that man by his fall has lost his ability to good. Such ability, or liberty as they call it, is essential to our nature, and cannot be lost without the loss of humanity. “Innatam arbitrii humani libertatem (i.e., ability) olim semel in creatione datam, nunquam . . . . tollit (Deus).”285285Confessio Remonstratum , vi. 6; Episcopii Opera , edit. Rotterdam, 1665, vol. ii. part 2, p. 80.

3. This ability, however, is not of itself sufficient to secure the return of the soul to God. Men need the preventing, exciting, and assisting grace of God in order to their conversion and holy living. “Gratiam Dei statuimus esse principium, progressum et complementum omnis boni: adeo ut ne ipse quidem regenitus absque præcedente ista, sive præveniente, excitante, prosequente et coöperante gratia, bonum ullum salutare cogitare, velle, aut peragere possit.”286286Ibid . xvii. 6; ut supra , p. 88.
328

4. This divine grace is afforded to all men in sufficient measure to enable them to repent, believe, and keep all the commandments of God. “Gratia efficax vocatur ex eventu. Ut statuatur gratia habere ex se sufficientem vim, ad producendum consensum in voluntate, sed quia vis illa partialis est, non posse exire in actum sive effectum sortiri sine coöperatione liberæ voluntatis humanæ, ac proinde ut effectum habeat, . . . . pendere a libera voluntate.”287287Apologia pro Confessione Remonstrantium , p. 162. This grace, says Limborch, “incitat, exstimulat, adjuvat et cerroborat, quantum satis est, ut homo reipsa Deo obediat et ad fineni in obedientia perseveret.” And again:288288Theologia , IV. xii. 8; p. 352. “Sufficiens vocatio, quando per coöperationem liberi arbitrii sortitur suum effectum, vocatur efficax.”
5. Those who of their own free will, and in the exercise of that ability which belongs to them since the fall, coöperate with this divine grace, are converted and saved. “Etsi vero maxima est gratiæ disparitas, pro liberrima scilicet voluntatis divinæ dispensatione tamen Spiritus Sanctus omnibus et singulis, quibus verbum fidei ordinarie prædicatur, tantum gratiæ confert, aut saltem conferre paratus est, quantum ad fidem ingenerandum, et ad promovendum suis gradibus salutarem ipsorum conversionem sufficit.”289289Confessio Remonstrantium , xvii. 8; p. 89. The Apology for the Remonstrance, and especially the Remonstrant Theologians, as Episcopius and Limborch, go farther than this. Instead of limiting this sufficient grace to those who hear the gospel, they extend it to all mankind.

6. Those who thus believe are predestinated to eternal life, not however as individuals, but as a class. The decree of election does not concern persons, it is simply the purpose of God to save believers. “Decretum vocant Remonstrantes decretum prædestinationis ad salutem, quia eo decernitur, qua ratione et conditione Deus peccatores saluti destinet. Enunciatur autem hoc decretum Dei hac formula: Deus decrevit salvare credentes, non quasi credentes quidam re ipsa jam sint, qui objiciantur Deo salvare volenti, sive prædestinanti; nihil minus; sed, ut quid in iis, circa quos Deus prædestinans versatur, requiratur, ista enunciatione clare significetur. Tantundem enim valet atqui si diceres, Deus decrevit homines salvare sub conditione fidei. . . . . Etiamsi hujusmodi prædestinatio non sit prædestinatio certarum personarum, est tamen omnium hominum prædestinatio, si modo credant et in virtute prædestinatio certarum personarum, quæ et quando credunt.”290
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
webdog said:
I thought I'd let you finish your list before I informed you again of what I said originally that you had a problem with...

I don't personally know any non cal theologians over the age of 107... :)

And this was my 1st post...

Please make a list of the top 50 theologians before the year 1900 that held to freewill.
The ones I listed no Baptist would claim as "great".

So far you have listed NONE. :)

Would you care to see a list of Calvinist theologians before 1900???

Does the web server have the space to hold the full list???? :)
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jarthur001 said:
And this was my 1st post...


The ones I listed no Baptist would claim as "great".

So far you have listed NONE. :)

Would you care to see a list of Calvinist theologians before 1900???

Does the web server have the space to hold the full list???? :)

"Please make a list of the top 50 theologians before the year 1900 that held to freewill."

I didn't see that anywhere in your OP...your "first post". For some reason you decided you wanted to limit your little list before 1900. At any rate, my first post came before your first post.
Replying to my...
"Most theologians I know believe the truth that Romans 9-11 is dealing with the Jews, not individual salvation."
with...
"Please make a list of the top 50 theologians before the year 1900 that held to freewill."
really makes no sense.
 
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EdSutton

New Member
Jarthur001, I don't know if your OP was answered and I'm not really getting into the thread, but I did notice 95 posts to it. That should either somewhat answer the question, or raise a whole bunch of new ones! :laugh: :laugh:

Ed
 

GordonSlocum

New Member
pinoybaptist said:
Dead wrong.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; The Ephesian believers, who actually existed unless you want to deny, like that lunatic president of Iran that Jews who were slaughtered by Hitler did not exist, were as dead in sins and trespasses as dead can be, no feeling of remorse, no feeling of guilt, not knowing they were in that condition;

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(A continuation of verse one, showing how these children of God in times past walked in the same trespasses and sins according to the ways of this world, under the influence of Satan, the same influence that even at this present time is at work in the ungodly;}


[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires F4 of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (The ungodly among whom the Ephesians lived and cavorted with, satisfying the mind and the flesh, the ungodly who by nature were children of wrath [which the Ephesians were not], like everyone else who are not of God)
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
(But God, because of the great love which He had for the Ephesians)

[/FONT]2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

(Even when the Ephesians [and those whom He loved], were dead in sins, uncaring, unmindful, enoying fleshly and spiritual sins, unrepentant, have (not will, not shall, but have) regenerated them, brought them back to life, caused them to be born again, and, oh, by the way, you are saved by grace)

To be elected on the basis of your faith in Christ is to be elected by merit, and makes God a respecter of persons.
To be able to exercise faith in Christ is the result of being "born from above", enlightened by the light, as you yourself said in your other post, now closed, and to be born from above is to be born by the will of God, again, as you yourself said in your other post.

If one is elected on the basis of his faith in Christ, it follows therefore, according to your thinking, that God causes you to be born again, and then elects you because now you have faith in Christ as a result of your being born again.

Mark that I am not putting words in your mouth, or misinterpreting your doctrine.


I have simply put into thought and sentence what you have said in your own posts.



On the other hand Paul has been very consistent with his theology. God foreknew, predestinated, called, justified and then glorified, as he wrote to the Romans. And now he writes in the beginning of his letter to the Ephesians:



Please don't apply your freewheeling free willing logic to these verses by saying that God foresaw the faith of individuals and based on that foreseen faith elected them in Christ.

Because that makes God a respecter of persons, respecting persons on the basis of their faith, when the Bible clearly says "not by works of righteousnesses which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5), a faith which He himself gifted them with (Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, now, that thickens your broth, doesn't it ?


First He sends the Light to enlighten all men.
Then, He causes the light to really light up some, but not all.
Then, He causes this really lit up ones to be born again.
Then, He gives them the gift of faith.
Then, He elects them according to the gift which He gave them, after He Himself caused their rebirth.

Now, who has a puppet master God ?



If I quote you perhaps I will not get accused by the accuser. "Dead wrong"

Can't say anymore I was told there are - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - .
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
Luis de Molina (who conceived of God's intermediate knowledge to allow free will and predestination to co-exist)'

Erasmus (who dueled with Luther over this very topic);

Hugo Grotius;

Gregory of Nyssa;

St. John Cassian;

Thomas More;

Menno Simons;

Balthasar Hubmaier;

John Smythe;

Thomas Helwys.
 
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J.D.

Active Member
Site Supporter
Even the most cursory review of history will quickly show that the theological underpinnings of the modern church has followed the current laid down by social movements - mainly, democracy and populism - which has led to the embracing of human determinism as the sovereign lord of today. The most ghastly thought to the modern/post-modern man is a personal, omnipotent, sovereign deity that is neither electible nor impeachable. We Christians call Him God.

Of course, that's history as a natural observation. We know God is in control of history, and if this is a day of a great apostasy (and I agree that it is), God has a glorious purpose in it.

 
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