Strange Things the Holy Spirit Cannot Do….

[puros_bran]

Ever have one of those moments where you didn't know whether to laugh or cry?

I have read some versions where I believe the Spirit was practically yelling at me to close the book.... BUT (and I am strongly King James Preference) I don't see the issue with this particular verse. One can not be IN Jesus without walking in the Spirit. That is, if you are walking in the flesh you are not in Jesus.

Which way did the autograph read? Either way I don't see it as a change of meaning.
Paul practically repeats the statement in Galatians, which is both an argument that it should be in Rom 8:1 AND an argument that it was an added cross reference. People repeat certain phrases, for all we know Paul was fond of saying 'walk in the spirit' and wrote it all the time... but people also like to copy notes into their bibles (even the scribes) so maybe it was a cross reference saying, "look, this is what he is talking about when he says in Jesus."

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ever have one of those moments where you didn't know whether to laugh or cry?

I have read some versions where I believe the Spirit was practically yelling at me to close the book.... BUT (and I am strongly King James Preference) I don't see the issue with this particular verse. One can not be IN Jesus without walking in the Spirit. That is, if you are walking in the flesh you are not in Jesus.

Which way did the autograph read? Either way I don't see it as a change of meaning.
Paul practically repeats the statement in Galatians, which is both an argument that it should be in Rom 8:1 AND an argument that it was an added cross reference. People repeat certain phrases, for all we know Paul was fond of saying 'walk in the spirit' and wrote it all the time... but people also like to copy notes into their bibles (even the scribes) so maybe it was a cross reference saying, "look, this is what he is talking about when he says in Jesus."

The autograph's are no longer exant.

 

[puros_bran]

I'm very well aware of that, thats why I said 'did it read', instead of 'does it read'.

 

[tamborine lady]

Well well well, now I remember why I don't come here anymore. Just for the record, I believe that the KJV says it correctly. People like to leave the second part out because it leaves them free to believe other things. (Whatever is convenient), and gives them the liberty to attack others.

The Holy Spirit does speak to all of us daily. Some choose to ignore Him, but He is speaking never the less.

John 16-13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

The Bible is for ALL of us, otherwise, these verses would not need to be in our Bible.

Jesus was speaking to all the people that would ever be born in this world, from then until this present day and beyond.

Not just the Apostles, that were there with Him that day.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God Bless you all,

Tam

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

[QUOTE] Pastor Larry: Yet if I claim that the Holy Spirit told me that Rom 8:1 was in fact inspired as the modern versions have it, I have made the exact kind of claim and thus we have two opposite position both claiming the Holy Spirit as the source. How do you mediate between that? You can't, which is why the OP was misguided.[/QUOTE]

HP: Patience Larry. God has yet to speak in finality, .....but He will. I have spoke and you have spoke and we both will stand before Him and give an account for every idle word spoken. Yes, there will be a way to mediate between our dissenting opinions. Be certain as to where you stand and what you say and I should do the same. If you are not certain of your opinion, then silence is in order. One thing for certain is that this list can do without your slanderous and wicked comparisons.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The question is: Do you believe all men all liars?
If not (besides Jesus Christ), can you point to one who isn't a liar?

HP: No, I do not believe that all men are liars I direct opposition to your stated beliefs.

As for which men in particular are not liars, I will allow God to be the final judge of that. Scripture does give us some good insight into those in particular, i.e., all those making their eternal abode with Christ that will not find their home in an eternal hell. Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TL: Well well well, now I remember why I don't come here anymore. Just for the record, I believe that the KJV says it correctly. People like to leave the second part out because it leaves them free to believe other things. (Whatever is convenient), and gives them the liberty to attack others.

HP: What a refreshing breeze of spiritual insight you bring back to the list. :thumbs: It is nice to know that the Spirit still witnesses truth to His people.

TL: The Holy Spirit does speak to all of us daily. Some choose to ignore Him, but He is speaking never the less.

HP: Amen. Isn’t it nice to know that the God that we will stand before does not simply leave us in the maelstrom of man’s opinions and those that call themselves experts, but guides us and teaches us His truth if we will be attentive to His voice? I know one thing for certain, we will have an Advocate on that day. Where will all the experts be that some seem so desperately depending on? Will they stand with those that follow them and testify before God on their behalf in the last day as to how they treated the Word of God and those that claimed to be lead by His Spirit? Will these experts be there to tell God that His Holy Spirit could not testify to man’s heart the truth He intended to give to man in His Word, in particular relating to this discussion concerning whether or not the last half of Romans 8:1 is in fact His words to man? We shall see won’t we. As for myself, I will do my best to be attentive to His Spirit and be careful how I limit the Holy Spirit’s dealings with other individuals as well. One might find themselves fighting against a Holy God in the end.

TL: John 16-13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

HP: Do you think you are omnipotent as God, knowing everything? You know I am just kidding!:laugh: But if you have followed this thread such charges are being leveled at me in like manner. Oh well, comes with the territory.

I am reminded of a talented talk show host that remarked how when one fails to take a definitive stand there seems to be little or no opposition, but let one take a stand and stand there and all the powers of hell seem to come against them. There is nothing that enflames the attacks of men more than one that knows where he stands and stands there. Stand firm Tam! The Lord will sustain you!

 

[Pastor Larry]

People like to leave the second part out because it leaves them free to believe other things. (Whatever is convenient), and gives them the liberty to attack others.

Only if you don't read the passage. The passage makes it clear.

John 16-13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

That statement was made to the disciples of Jesus about the NT. It was not made to you.

 

[DHK]

Well well well, now I remember why I don't come here anymore. Just for the record, I believe that the KJV says it correctly. People like to leave the second part out because it leaves them free to believe other things. (Whatever is convenient), and gives them the liberty to attack others.

FTR, I also believe the KJV rendering is the correct one, but it is not because of "the Spirit bearing witness with my witness" that I believe that way. If I say that, then I imply that I have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit and all others that disagree with me are either unsaved or don't have the Holy Spirit. That is a very unkind and judgmental stand to take--one that HP has taken. Basically he is calling half the board unsaved.

The Holy Spirit does speak to all of us daily. Some choose to ignore Him, but He is speaking never the less.

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

John 16-13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

He leads and guides us. But this verse is taken out of context. He is speaking to His Apostles. Can you honestly say that He leads you into ALL truth? Do you know ALL the truth?

The Bible is for ALL of us, otherwise, these verses would not need to be in our Bible.

There are many verses in the Bible that don't apply to us.
Does God speak to you through a burning bush as he did to Moses?
If you speak in tongues is there a mighty wind and cloven tongues of fire present every time?
Have you witnessed the parting of the Red Sea lately?
--All Scripture/events do not apply to us today.

Jesus was speaking to all the people that would ever be born in this world, from then until this present day and beyond.

On what authority do you say that? It is just your opinion. Again do you know all truth?

Not just the Apostles, that were there with Him that day.

If it was just the Apostles, and didn't relate to the inspiration of Scripture, why aren't you omniscient like God, and know all things?

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Although this is the way the KJV renders it, it would not deter my faith if it didn't, for the same truth is taught if it wasn't in the KJV. Many MSS do omit it. The Holy Spirit cannot bear witness with my spirit whether it is in the original MSS or not. That must come from a study of the Greek MSS, and a conclusion based on my own personal study. I may come to my own personal conclusion. But it is wrong to say: "The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that Romans 8:1 is correct as written in the KJV." The Holy Spirit does not work that way. He does not go beyond the bounds of the Word. He does not give extra-Biblical knowledge. He does not engage himself in the heresy of gnosticism.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you are not certain of your opinion, then silence is in order.

I am certain that your methodology is wrong, and that is why I spoke up.

One thing for certain is that this list can do without your slanderous and wicked comparisons.

This is slanderous and wicked (to use your words). I made no such comparison and you should not have accused me of such. the fact that you don't understand the comparison is your problem. You have not thought very well or very deeply about this topic. You are using the Holy Spirit in a blasphemous way to support your own opinion. I showed you that and you have refused to accept it. The Holy Spirit is not a toy to be used as you are using him.

 

[tamborine lady]

Only if you don't read the passage. The passage makes it clear.

That statement was made to the disciples of Jesus about the NT. It was not made to you.

If what you say is true, then the Bible is a dead book and is of no matter in this world.

But we all know that the Bible is called a living book. Each time I pick it up and begin to read, the Holy Spirit shows me understanding of scripture that I didn't see before, even though I may have read the scripture hundreds of times before.

But then how can light debate with darkness. The scripture even says:

1 Tim 6-20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

If the scripture was not for me, then who? All scripture is given for inspiration------etc.

And with that I will sign off for now.

Tam

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: Compare the two claims:
The Holy Spirit told me that Rom 8:1 in the KJV is the correct reading.
The Holy Spirit told me that I could commit adultery.

They are both the same kind of claim, a claim of special information from the Holy Spirit that cannot be gained from the Bible.

HP: You are drawing a comparison between my statement of the Holy Spirit testifying to my heart that the KJV of Romans 8:1 is correct, with the wicked statement made by an adulterer. That is about as low of a comparison I have ever witnessed on this list If you cannot see how that can be seen as a personal insult, you need some sensitivity training.

There is no reasonable or just comparison between the two remarks, and to act as if there is it can certainly be seen as slanderous and wicked. Your comparison is an insult to any semblance of reason. One is the truth, the other a lie of the enemy. There is no just comparison as you attempted to draw, and you as a Pastor should be the first to know.
It was baseless and without merit, and as such was nothing more than a thinly veiled baseless personal attack.

What if you told me that you were a believer and I told you that the following was a reasonable comparison.

You say you are a believer and that God testifies that truth to your heart..
I knew a man that said he was a believer and that God testified that to his heart and yet he admitted he lived like the devil.

I AM NOT MAKING ANY COMPARISON BETWEEN ANY WICKED INDIVIDUAL AND PASTOR LARRY. I am simply illustrating to the list the wicked and slanderous nature of any and all such comparisons. Let them not be named once among us.

Here is the lesson to be learned. Just because others misuse the Holy Spirit or any truth for that matter, does not negate the fact that others can be completely in line with the truth. The only thing that is established is one is being truthful and the other a liar. No comparisons can be rightfully made between the two.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: You are using the Holy Spirit in a blasphemous way to support your own opinion.

HP: Yet another thinly veiled personal attack. Tell me what is the difference between this remark and telling me that I am a blasphemer? You would do well to restate your remark in a less offensive way and more in keeping with truth and Christian charity.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If what you say is true, then the Bible is a dead book and is of no matter in this world.

If you think, then you don't understand what I said.

But we all know that the Bible is called a living book. Each time I pick it up and begin to read, the Holy Spirit shows me understanding of scripture that I didn't see before, even though I may have read the scripture hundreds of times before.

This is the result of illumination and study. It is not the direct work of the Holy Spirit, but the work of the Holy Spirit through regeneration which opens our spiritual eyes, and study.

But then how can light debate with darkness.

Are you questioning my salvation?

The scripture even says:

1 Tim 6-20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Yes indeed. The claim that the Holy Spirit confirmed a particular textual variant is a profane and vain babbling. We should avoid them.

If the scripture was not for me, then who?

Was Luke 1:35 written to you? Of course not. You can see how absurd that is. That doesn't mean that there is no profitability in that passage, but simply that it wasn't written directly to you. The same is true of the verse cited earlier. There is certainly profitability in that passage for us in that it teaches us the origin and preconfirmation of the NT Scriptures. That does not mean that it was written directly to us.

All scripture is given for inspiration------etc.

Yes indeed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

HP: Yet another thinly veiled personal attack.

I haven't made any personal attacks. That was you who did that.

Tell me what is the difference between this remark and telling me that I am a blasphemer?

The difference is that I have not seen you consistently do this, but you are using the Holy Spirit illegitimately, which is what blasphemy is, in part. Whenever we use God or his name for something he would not use it for, we are blaspheming and maligning him.

You would do well to restate your remark in a less offensive way and more in keeping with truth and Christian charity.

It wasn't offensive. It was in keeping with both truth and Christian charity. You are misusing the Holy Spirit. Do not do that, regardless of what you conclude about the passage in view.

Let's return to the topic and get away from your rabbit trails.

I say that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me the truth of Romans 8:1 that it should not contain the last phrase found in the KJV.

How do you respond?

And BTW, please quit changing the font. It makes your posts obnoxious to read.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
TL: The Holy Spirit does speak to all of us daily. Some choose to ignore Him, but He is speaking never the less.

DHK: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

HP: Tell us more about just what you are agreeing to. What does the Holy Spirit speak to you daily DHK? Can you give us Scriptures that would tell us specifically that such knowledge is indeed granted by the Holy Spirit? Is He limited to speaking to you only in accordance to the truth He has in the past, or is He free to share with you His Word? If not why not. If He cannot share with us the actual words in His Word, how can you be certain that the ones you would point to in Scripture are in actuality the truth??

No one is speaking about extra biblical revelation here. That is a paper duck, and a lame one at that. We are speaking directly concerning THE WORD OF GOD and if God can in fact reveal THE WORD OF GOD to ones heart as He intended it to be written down. If not why not? If not, why is that not specifically going beyond Scripture in limiting God to what He can and cannot reveal to man’s heart?

I would think that IF ANYTHING, God would be in the business of revealing to man’s heart the truth of His Word. That certainly would be within the confines of ‘Scripture itself’ would it not? Nothing ‘extra biblical’ about that is there?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Larry: The difference is that I have not seen you consistently do this, but you are using the Holy Spirit illegitimately, which is what blasphemy is, in part. Whenever we use God or his name for something he would not use it for, we are blaspheming and maligning him.

HP: Then are you directly accusing me or calling me a blasphemer?

 

[Pastor Larry]

HP: Then are you directly accusing me or calling me a blasphemer?

It is hard to imagine you don't understand what I have already said. It was clear.

Perhaps this is part of the problem both in this conversation, as well as with the Bible: You don't appear to be paying attention to what is said.

Bad doctrine and bad conversations are the result of people who don't read closely and pay attention to understand.

 

[Pastor Larry]

But let's return to the issue and let me repeat what I asked earlier:

I say that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me the truth of Romans 8:1 that it should not contain the last phrase found in the KJV.

How do you respond?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: You don't appear to be paying attention to what is said.

HP: Lets review the facts. The Scriptures say, Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I say, yes, that is correct and the Holy Spirit witnesses to my heart that it is correct.

I would say that I am paying close attention to not only His Word but the Spirit as well. They agree.