Strange Things the Holy Spirit Cannot Do….

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: There are all kinds of strong faith. But you can completely believe something that is completely false

HP: This thread, according to you, surrounds the question as to my admission that that the Holy Spirit testifies to my spirit that the KJV translation of this verse is absolutely correct. Are you claiming that the KJV is completely false? I remember something about a rule concerning such remarks.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: Assurance of salvation is based on Jesus, not on my faith. My faith is weak, but Jesus is the one who saves.

HP: Let me understand you correctly here. Are you saying it is not by faith and faith alone that salvation is accomplished? What is assurance based upon if not by faith?

 

[Pastor Larry]

This thread, according to you, surrounds the question as to my admission that that the Holy Spirit testifies to my spirit that the KJV translation of this verse is absolutely correct. Are you claiming that the KJV is completely false?

No, of course not. I don't believe that. My comments in this thread are not really even directed at how Rom 8:1 should read (whether the KJV or the MVs). My comments are directed at the methodology by which you claim to make a decision. You have a bad methodology.

Let me understand you correctly here.

That would be helpful.

Are you saying it is not by faith and faith alone that salvation is accomplished?

No of course not. The issue was assurance of salvation, not accomplishment of salvation.

What is assurance based upon if not by faith?

Based on the promises of God (cf. John 3:16, et al), the testimony of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:16), and the evidences of salvation in the life (1 John, Col 1:22-23; Heb 3:12-14, etc.) I have assurance of salvation because I believe what Jesus did was sufficient, not because I believe in my faith.

Don't get confused about the question. Having salvation and having assurance of salvation are two different things. One can be saved and have no assurance and one can be unsaved and have complete assurance.

It's exchanges like this that make me think you aren't even paying attention to what is being talked about.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: Don't get confused about the question. Having salvation and having assurance of salvation are two different things. One can be saved and have no assurance and one can be unsaved and have complete assurance.

HP: Help eliminate confusion. Tell us how the things you speak of are possible.

 

[Pastor Larry]

HP: Help eliminate confusion. Tell us how the things you speak of are possible.

The Bible says that our hearts are deceitful (Jer 17:9). Your heart can deceive you about your salvation. In Matthew 7, Christ talks of those who will say, "Lord, Lord ..." and yet will be unsaved. They obviously had assurance without salvation.

On the other hand, there are those who can doubt because of weakness of faith, yet they have truly been regenerated.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: I have assurance of salvation because I believe what Jesus did was sufficient, not because I believe in my faith.

HP: The devils believe that what Christ did was sufficient, and tremble. What Christ accomplished was sufficient for every soul that has ever lived on this earth and for every sin that was ever committed by every human being, yet not all are saved. Facts of sufficiency do not establish one personal right to claim salvation. It takes faith to do that, but as you so aptly pointed out, PL: “Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.” Remember? “PL: FAITH WON”T MAKE YOU RIGHT.”

There must be something between the work of Christ which was sufficient to save all and the fact that not all will be saved. If one simply points to the sufficiency of the atonement, one would conclude that because it is sufficient for all, all must be saved and universalism rules. There must be something that connect us as individuals to those that will be saved. If it is not faith, because you said that “faith won’t make you right” what is it? What makes us right before God? If you point to the work of Christ, I am going to ask you why all are not saved? Was His atonement insufficient to save all?

What gives us the assurance that we are children of God? It cannot be the Word of God alone because the last time I read it none of our names were mentioned specifically in it as part of the redeemed, and again it is not merely our faith according to you (and I believe the Word of God agrees). What must one do to be part of the family of the redeemed? How can I be certain I am one of those that are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb? How can I be certain I am not one of those claiming to have faith but in reality are really one of those that you say PL: “ Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.”?

 

[Jim1999]

I think I have heard certain preachers preach away: "I FEEL the Spirit in me. I FEEL saved! Hallelujah!....."

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

The devils believe that what Christ did was sufficient, and tremble.

Yes, but that's not saving faith.

What Christ accomplished was sufficient for every soul that has ever lived on this earth and for every sin that was ever committed by every human being, yet not all are saved.

Yes.

Facts of sufficiency do not establish one personal right to claim salvation.

Correct.

There must be something that connect us as individuals to those that will be saved. If it is not faith, because you said that “faith won’t make you right” what is it?

It is faith. You are not paying attention here. Faith connects us to Jesus. Jesus saves us through faith. All people have faith. Salvation comes when your faith is in the right object.

If you point to the work of Christ, I am going to ask you why all are not saved? Was His atonement insufficient to save all?

All are not saved because all do not have faith in Christ. They have faith in works, faith in baptism, faith in being good, faith in giving money, faith in Buddha, faith in the non-existence of God, faith in all kinds of things.

What gives us the assurance that we are children of God?

I answered this above: 1) The promises of God; 2) the testimony of the Spirit; 3) the evidences of salvation.

What must one do to be part of the family of the redeemed?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

How can I be certain I am one of those that are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb?

Trust Christ and follow him.

How can I be certain I am not one of those claiming to have faith but in reality are really one of those that you say PL: “ Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.”?

By trusting in Christ and following after him.

Now remember, you are asking about assurance here ("How can I be certain?"), not about salvation itself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: The Bible says that our hearts are deceitful (Jer 17:9). Your heart can deceive you about your salvation.

HP: I could not agree more. :thumbs: I believe there are multitudes believing themselves to be saved that are deceived.

PL: In Matthew 7, Christ talks of those who will say, "Lord, Lord ..." and yet will be unsaved. They obviously had assurance without salvation.

HP: No disagreement there. I believe that if you would have asked any one of them they would have told you that they had faith as well, for there is no assurance apart from faith.

PL: On the other hand, there are those who can doubt because of weakness of faith, yet they have truly been regenerated.

HP: Another good point.:thumbs: I personally believe that any one seeking God with their whole heart would testify that there have been times they had to wonder about their standing before God. At such times it would be useless to tell them that because they had an assurance or because they have had faith in the past that they are right with God now, or tell them OSAS. As you point out they are having doubt. It could be caused by many things, although I believe it is most often caused by doubtful activity. They have more than likely entered into doubtful areas they had no faith in and have found themselves a victim of such formed intents. That might not always be the case, as I believe their could be clinical reasons that might affect ones thinking processes as well.

What advice would you give to the one in such doubt? What do you see as a scriptural direction for them to follow to bring them safely into an assurance that can be trusted to point them in the right direction, and to establish once again a certain assurance of their standing before God?

 

[Pastor Larry]

What advice would you give to the one in such doubt?

Fight for your faith through constant exposure to the Word and to godly people who can help you. Preach the gospel to yourself day after day and rely wholly on Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: It is faith. Faith connects us to Jesus. Jesus saves us through faith. All people have faith. Salvation comes when your faith is in the right object.

HP: BUT, you said, PL: “ Faith won't make you right. Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.” We are back to the deception problem. Those that stand before God deceived are there with the object of their faith in Christ, but are deceived as to its work in their life. They are going to stand before the King of Kings, basing their hope upon their faith in Him, yet have been deceived. You can have faith in Christ and His work and be deceived.

You alluded to the truth of the matter when you said, PL: “Trust Christ and follow him.” It is not merely faith alone, but faith and following Him. God accepts repentance to start us off with a clean slate but our faith must not stop there. It must follow Him to be found to be saving faith in the end. Jas 2:14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I have to head to work. God bless you.:thumbs: I have enjoyed our discussions and look forward to taking up where we leave off as time permits.

 

[Pastor Larry]

HP: BUT, you said, PL: “ Faith won't make you right. Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.”

That comment was made about a different topic, but the point is clear. Believing the wrong thing is still wrong, no matter how much you believe it.

Those that stand before God deceived are there with the object of their faith in Christ, but are deceived as to its work in their life. They are going to stand before the King of Kings, basing their hope upon their faith in Him, yet have been deceived. You can have faith in Christ and His work and be deceived.

Their faith was not in Christ. If it was they would have been saved. You are creating a contradiction.

You alluded to the truth of the matter when you said, PL: “Trust Christ and follow him.” It is not merely faith alone, but faith and following Him.

I didn’t allude to it. I plainly stated it. And I was talking about assurance, not salvation. (And I made that clear when I said it).

You quote James 2:14-17, but fail to note that that passage is talking about a particular kind of faith—“Can that faith save him?” The point is not whether or not faith alone saves, but rather what the nature of the kind of faith alone that saves is.

This verse has been used by many to corrupt the glorious gospel of Christ—to add works or efforts to saving faith. Such is the kind of deceit that will lead people to think they are saved, but will find them standing before God unsaved because they were trusting in something other than Christ alone.
\

 

[Alive in Christ]

Honestly, this is one of the most ridiculous threads I think I have ever read.

Here Ye...Here Ye: :wavey:

Any christian, in any conversation...be it discussion board or not...has every right in the world to articulate what they believe the Holy Spirit of God has testified to them!

And when that event occurs...nobody...be it a "moderator" or not...has any right to forbid them from articulating that.

From Romans 14...

"Let your brother be fully convinced in His own mind, for who are you to judge anothers servant."

If someone doesnt agree with someone else about something, hash it out, discuss it, argue, "contend earnestly for the faith", etc.

But it is unthinkable to tell someone that they have no right to articulate what they believe God, through the Holy Spirit, is speaking to them. Maybe they are wrong about what they believe God is saying to them...but until God makes that plain to them, they have a right to articulate what they believe the Holy Spirit is teaching them right then.

Why that would bother anybody is completely beyond me.



Sorry, just couldnt hold it in any longer. :laugh:


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

Honestly, this is one of the most ridiculous threads I think I have ever read.

Here Ye...Here Ye: :wavey:

Any christian, in any conversation...be it discussion board or not...has every right in the world to articulate what they believe the Holy Spirit of God has testified to them!

And when that event occurs...nobody...be it a "moderator" or not...has any right to forbid them from articulating that.

From Romans 14...




If someone doesnt agree with someone else about something, hash it out, discuss it, argue, "contend earnestly for the faith", etc.

But it is unthinkable to tell someone that they have no right to articulate what they believe God, through the Holy Spirit, is speaking to them. Maybe they are wrong about what they believe God is saying to them...but until God makes that plain to them, they have a right to articulate what they believe the Holy Spirit is teaching them right then.

Why that would bother anybody is completely beyond me.



Sorry, just couldnt hold it in any longer. :laugh:


:godisgood:

AIC, you are wrong. You have not been reading carefully enough. I will give you some simple examples.

Does 3+2=5 ? How do you know? Was it the Holy Spirit witnessing to your spirit that three added to two would equal five. Or did you come to this knowledge some other way?

What about 5X6=30 ? Is that a correct statement? How do you know? Did the Holy Spirit tell you? Did you have to pray about it? Did God supernaturally reveal it to you?

Is water composed of two atoms of Hydrogen to one atom of Oxygen? If so, is this knowledge gained by the Holy Spirit?

Does the absence or presence of the last half of Romans 8:1 come because the Holy Spirit testifies to your spirit that it is the truth? No, it does not. That too is outside the limits of biblical knowledge. The Holy Spirit does not guide in that are no more than he leads in the are of adding two numbers together.

It is not wrong to have convictions. I have a strong conviction that two plus three equals five. But that conviction isn't as important as my conviction that Jesus Christ is deity, a conviction worth dying for. One may have a conviction about Romans 8:1 including the last half of the verse as it does in the KJV. That is a matter of textual criticism, not a matter of the Holy Spirit witnessing to one's spirit of the truth. If you give into that nonsensical reasoning the one using that reasoning has come to the conclusion that:
1. All who disagrees with him does not have the Holy Spirit and is therefore unsaved.
2. That if the Holy Spirit is able to testify an opposing view to others, then the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic; or opposes Himself. Either way he doesn't have a very high view of God.
3. Or, He has a monopoly on the Holy Spirit in all matters of truth, whether or not he is right. All who disagree with him are wrong because the Holy Spirit has witnessed to his spirit that he is right.

No. God does not work that way. He does not work against his own nature. He does not oppose himself.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

In your quoting of my post, you didnt include probably the most important part.

The scripture from Romans 14...

"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind. For who are you to judge anothers servant?"

Here is God saying "Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind", and yet you and others are telling HP that he can not be "fully convinced in his own mind"

To be honest, I cant even remember what the original point was on the 1st thread that this is all about, but I think I remember that I disagreed with HP like you did.

I have no problem with disagreeing with the original point, only with HP being chastised for sharing what he sincerely believes the Holy Spirit has taught him.

And if HP has no right to say what he believes the Holy Spirit has taught him, why do YOU have the right to share what you believe the Holy Spirit has taught you?

Its just very bizarre.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Any christian, in any conversation...be it discussion board or not...has every right in the world to articulate what they believe the Holy Spirit of God has testified to them!

And when that event occurs...nobody...be it a "moderator" or not...has any right to forbid them from articulating that.

It is not about having "the right" to say it. It is about whether or not it is right to say it ... in other words, is it theologically accurate. In this case, it isn't. And no one should object when bad theology is pointed out.

The Holy Spirit works through the Word, not apart from it, and his role doesn't include extra-biblical revelation about which textual variant is correct.

From Romans 14...

That is about an entirely different topic. Romans 14 is about matters of conscience where a believer might not participated in something that is acceptable to God because his conscience forbids it. It is not about whether we can invoke the Holy Spirit as a trump card to promote our personal beliefs.

But it is unthinkable to tell someone that they have no right to articulate what they believe God, through the Holy Spirit, is speaking to them.

Who here said that anyone didn't have a right to say something?

Sorry, just couldnt hold it in any longer

Self-control is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Pastor Larry...

You said...

"Who here said that anyone didn't have a right to say something?"

You did, on the 1st page of this thread, when you said to HP...

"......"Exactly, which is why you can't invoke the Holy Spirit.""

And DHK, also on the 1st page...

"Your entitled to your opinion, but don't come on here and claim that it is God's opinion and everyone else is wrong."

Again, I ackowledge that someone might not be correct when they say something like that. If that is the case, God will straiten them out in due time. But at the time, the person believes God has taught them something, and they should have the freedom to post accordingly.


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

Again, I ackowledge that someone might not be correct when they say something like that. If that is the case, God will straiten them out in due time. But at the time, the person believes God has taught them something, and they should have the freedom to post accordingly.

Does a poster have the freedom to post: God taught me 3+3=7.
Does a poster have the freedom to post a lie, and then say that God taught me it?
No one has that freedom.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

PL: The Holy Spirit works through the Word, not apart from it, and his role doesn't include extra-biblical revelation about which textual variant is correct.

HP: This is precisely the point of this thread, to point out clearly how some limit an Omnipotent Sovereign God. The irony of the remarks of PL is that it IS the Word of God that we are addressing, nothing more or less. Let the reader know of certainty, the idea that somehow this involves “extra-biblical revelation” is simply not the case. We are speaking of nothing other than Holy Spirit direction as to His Word and His Word alone. That is biblical, not ‘extra-biblical.’ It is not a hard thing for the Spirit to spot the absence of what He Authored.

I am not adding my words to it, nor even giving my feelings as to its meaning, just simply attesting to the fact that God is able and willing, being the Author of Scripture, to convey to the heart of man the truth as to what He has inspired men to write. If in fact the translators did not rely on the Holy Spirit for such enlightenment, they had no right to pen the first sentence of Holy writ.

Stumble along as one wills through the maze of so-called translations, but as for me, I will seek the Lord directly for my guidance and direction. If we are going to be judged by His Word, God is faithful to attest to the heart and life of all who seek Him the truth of His Word and guide us to a translation(s) consistent with His inspired Word.

 

[DHK]

We are speaking of nothing other than Holy Spirit direction as to His Word and His Word alone. That is biblical, not ‘extra-biblical.'

This is a false statement. You should be ashamed even to post such.
The discussion has centered around Romans 8:1.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

or

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (ASV)

The ASV is translated from the Critical Text, and the KJV is translated from the Majority Text.
These are extra-biblical matters studied in the realm of textual criticism.
Is "textual criticism" found in the Bible? No.
Is "Majority Text" or "Critical Text" found in the Bible? No.

God does not bear witness of these things. God cannot tell you which is right and which is wrong. You can state your opinion, your belief, your conviction. But do not state that God told you..." When you do so you are claiming extra-biblical revelation. The canon is closed. You are also inferring that half of the board who believes differently than you are unsaved.