Strong Drink -The Baptist Truth

[ituttut]

Grape juice did not exist until after the civil war? That one can easily be refuted by reading the works of Josephus who lived back in the first century AD. Josephus wrote how one could make non-alcoholic wine from the juice of the grape even back then.

You need to go back further than this to prove "fresh grape juice" had a long "shelf life". Was it "fresh grape juice" Melchizedek brought to Abram? Was it fresh "grape juice" used at the celebration of the returning prodigal son? We know they didn't celebrate this event, toasting with "grape juice", and we don't know if a process was known at this time to extend the life of presentable "grape juice".

We don't know the "seasons" of these events, but we do know the "day and month" of the wedding when Jesus turned water into wine. The picking of the grapes was long past at the time of this wedding, so we know the wine furnished for this event was at least 10 months old. Scripture does not show preservation of "grape juice", or history to date, that "grape juice" could last but for only a short time before fermentation would begin.

Who is it that preserves us? Isn't it because of His blood that we are saved? If it saves us then it must condemn those that do not believe in Him that shed His blood for them also. In days to come there will be dead bodies all over the place, and blood galore. Interesting to see what drinking too much blood can do to something that is alive - "And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you", Ezekiel 39:19. Blood is represented by wine, and not grape juice.

 

[ituttut]

The same thing Bruce L. stated:

He doesn't state they CAN'T under the right conditions, but that if do it will sour rather quickly. I doubt this souring took hours but more like days, however it was not something that took place with bottle of juice made. Rather. it was something man learned to do from a seldom but natural process in which he refined to be able to make the liquor faster and consistantly which also will last longer (and in our day mutliple times stronger with the distilling process) than the natural process.

Why is it we wish to always give man credit for everything, completely trusting in men who may not understand a specific subject? The ground was no longer cursed, and the lush grape vines could be grown. Does scripture say man gave to himself wine to make the heart glad? I would say God rewarded Noah, and instilled (nor pun intended) in him the art of making wine. Either that or Noah became drunk on the natural fermentation of the grapes. Either way don't mean to knock Dr. Lackey, but he opposes scripture, and from what has been presented here he looks to be in error.

 

[mes228]

Drink

This is amazing. I do not drink. I am a Baptist. All I pointed out is that the actual Baptist doctrine says Christians CAN drink strong drink based on scripture. I also pointed out that the Baptist discipline is abstinence. I agree pretty much with the position. But that position is not the entirety of scripture. It is specific and is foundational for a social concern. I am not unaware that earlier generations could preserve things and make juice. Churches and people pretty much used wine as it's an easy thing to do. I know, as I've brewed both wine and beer. The world is full of polemics and writings to buttress beliefs. No matter what you wish to believe.

Other churches have disciplines also. But the members pretty much know that it is a discipline not a doctrine. An example would be Catholic Priest not marrying. No Catholic believes that position is a "Doctrine" based on scripture. It is a "discipline"
based on the needs of the church and the perceived needs of the church members. A discipline can be changed at any time. A Doctrine cannot.

The Baptist doctrine says clearly that Christians can drink strong drink. The discipline says they should not. I agree. But many Baptist (unlike catholics) think Baptist doctrine is abstinence. It is not. It is a social position taught for the good of society and members based on selective sampling of scripture. As I said before no legitimate scholar, or honest person, can reach that position based on all scripture.

Most that argue this topic don't know the difference between a doctrine and a discipline. There is no argument if you are a Baptist and accept their doctrine.
Christians can drink, BUT SHOULD NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS AND CONCIENCE.

 

[Allan]

This is amazing. I do not drink. I am a Baptist. All I pointed out is that the actual Baptist doctrine says Christians CAN drink strong drink based on scripture. I also pointed out that the Baptist discipline is abstinence. I agree pretty much with the position. But that position is not the entirety of scripture. It is specific and is foundational for a social concern. I am not unaware that earlier generations could preserve things and make juice. Churches and people pretty much used wine as it's an easy thing to do. I know, as I've brewed both wine and beer. The world is full of polemics and writings to buttress beliefs. No matter what you wish to believe.

Other churches have disciplines also. But the members pretty much know that it is a discipline not a doctrine. An example would be Catholic Priest not marrying. No Catholic believes that position is a "Doctrine" based on scripture. It is a "discipline"
based on the needs of the church and the perceived needs of the church members. A discipline can be changed at any time. A Doctrine cannot.

The Baptist doctrine says clearly that Christians can drink strong drink. The discipline says they should not. I agree. But many Baptist (unlike catholics) think Baptist doctrine is abstinence. It is not. It is a social position taught for the good of society and members based on selective sampling of scripture. As I said before no legitimate scholar, or honest person, can reach that position based on all scripture.

Most that argue this topic don't know the difference between a doctrine and a discipline. There is no argument if you are a Baptist and accept their doctrine.
Christians can drink, BUT SHOULD NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS AND CONCIENCE.

Is this just a general statement or are you addressing someone in particular.
There might be a FEW who state this is a doctrine (concerning TOTAL abstinance) but there IS a doctrine relating to abstaining from alcohal (in partial or total form), which you and I both spoke of.

However scripture does state there are those who are FORBIDDEN to drink any, and in every instance it has to do with them being seperated and or in the service of the Lord. Priests were forbidden to drink ANY alcohal of God Hiself would kill them while they were preforming or serving the Lord in their priestly duties. The Nazarite vow forbid the person to even touch a grape or raisin which represented alcohal, wine or otherwise. Proverbs states Kings and princes SHOULD NOT partake in wine NOR strong drink lest it pervert their judgment. Pastors according to scripture are not to drink wine.

So we KNOW there are times when drinking wine was forbidden and that was while they are in service, or seperated unto a purpose of God. Therefore one CAN make a case to abstain NOT in the sense the bible absolutely forbids it, but because you desire to be completely seperated and in the service of God at all times not desiring at ANY time your judgment COULD be distorted or impared. This along with the actual Doctrine of conscience and weaker brother, makes a very strong position to choose to the abstinence position but I agree nothing in scripture says to TOTALLY or in absoluteness Abstain (unless it cause thy brother to stumble). Though it is not a doctrine by itself (abstinence totally or partially and regarding why) but it IS PART of the doctrine concerning alcohal since it is the whole counsil of God concerning the matter.

 

[Allan]

Why is it we wish to always give man credit for everything, completely trusting in men who may not understand a specific subject? The ground was no longer cursed, and the lush grape vines could be grown. Does scripture say man gave to himself wine to make the heart glad? I would say God rewarded Noah, and instilled (nor pun intended) in him the art of making wine. Either that or Noah became drunk on the natural fermentation of the grapes. Either way don't mean to knock Dr. Lackey, but he opposes scripture, and from what has been presented here he looks to be in error.

No said Man did it all by himself. And Lackey in no way opposes scripture. God did it FIRST, and man took it and ran to make sure it consistantly produced a fermentation as well as make it more intoxicating. So man could have wine on demand and to the strength he desired, rather than the light brewed stuff God makes naturally. Do you understand the context of "glad of heart". It refers to forgetting you problems for a time and is shown clearly in Prov. where it says give strong drink to the person who is about to die and those of great sorrow. It also says to give wine or drink to one who has nothing and remember (for a time) his lfe of misery.

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

and here it speaks specifically to the gladness and those things which are comparable (slaying, killing, eating and drink - are references to feasting or partying) because there is no hope tomorrow- they WILL die.

Isa 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Why is it we wish to always give man credit for everything, completely trusting in men who may not understand a specific subject? The ground was no longer cursed, and the lush grape vines could be grown. Does scripture say man gave to himself wine to make the heart glad? I would say God rewarded Noah, and instilled (nor pun intended) in him the art of making wine. Either that or Noah became drunk on the natural fermentation of the grapes. Either way don't mean to knock Dr. Lackey, but he opposes scripture, and from what has been presented here he looks to be in error.

NEWS FLASH!!

Just because the flood took place does not mean the curse was lifted from the ground. As a matter of fact, if one looked around, one would clearly see that the ground is still cursed.

Genesis 3:17 (KJV) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Genesis 3:18 (KJV) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {bring...: Heb. cause to bud}

Guess what?? Thorns and thistles are still growing on this old cursed earth.

If the curse were lifted from the earth, God would not have to destroy it with fire in the future as He said He would do.

 

[ituttut]

No said Man did it all by himself. And Lackey in no way opposes scripture. God did it FIRST, and man took it and ran to make sure it consistantly produced a fermentation as well as make it more intoxicating. So man could have wine on demand and to the strength he desired, rather than the light brewed stuff God makes naturally.

You have changed the wording to fit your argument. I was answering "The following study is by Bruce Lackey: (snip) Quote "Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it." Unquote.

Scripture says God caused the grape vine to grow, the vine to produce grapes, and caused grapes to ferment. Who caused this to happen, man or God? God made the properties of wine, and Noah implemented the procedure to bring about what God caused, or what God did. "He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
15. And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart", Psalms 104:14-15. It's God that "caused, or made happen" this thing of turning the grape with it's yeast, mold and bacteria into wine. God said this "wine He provides for man" makes glad the heart of man. Evidently Dr. Lackey's had acetic bacteria on the grapes he used, which can cause the wine to turn to vinegar. From all indications Dr. Lackey, in this area, lacks credibility.

Do you understand the context of "glad of heart". It refers to forgetting you problems for a time and is shown clearly in Prov. where it says give strong drink to the person who is about to die and those of great sorrow. It also says to give wine or drink to one who has nothing and remember (for a time) his lfe of misery.

Amazing how easily one can just "willy nilly" go about picking out a verse here, and then one there, and stick it where it doesn't fit. We need to understand that God meant what He said. He gave a gift, and the gift contained the ingredients of joy and pleasure, with the ability to "cheer-up". You are confusing "gluttony" with "pleasure". Over do it and it will dull the senses. The verse you give would be for those that are suffering from physical "pain" of body and mind, of which today we have drugs that can do the same thing.

Some will take the "gifts" that God offers, and others will not. We are to read and understand the whole Bible, and not flipping through to find certain verses to fit theology of man which ends on contradiction. Let's correctly divide His Word for understanding. Apply this where it fits to show this gift of God is after all "GOOD". "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones", Proverbs 17:22. This will still work (and did for thousands of years) to get people over the rough spots. But people quit the habit of over indulgence of the wine when the "crisis" had passed. Today we have the tranquilizer. It works when it is correctly used, but abuse will incapacitate.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Amazing how easily one can just "willy nilly" go about picking out a verse here, and then one there, and stick it where it doesn't fit. We need to understand that God meant what He said. He gave a gift, and the gift contained the ingredients of joy and pleasure, with the ability to "cheer-up". You are confusing "gluttony" with "pleasure". Over do it and it will dull the senses. The verse you give would be for those that are suffering from physical "pain" of body and mind, of which today we have drugs that can do the same thing.

And you are confusing the alcoholic wine of the Bible (that which God forbids) with the non-alcoholic wine of the Bible (that which God allows).

 

[ituttut]

NEWS FLASH!!

Just because the flood took place does not mean the curse was lifted from the ground. As a matter of fact, if one looked around, one would clearly see that the ground is still cursed.

You must watch CNN. Try Fox News to get both sides of the story.

You are saying what so many others imply that God is wrong again - "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field", Genesis 3:17-18. Please notice there is nothing to "make glad the heart of man".

Please compare the "Rest of the Story". Genesis 8:21-22, "And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." The Thorns and the thistles are still with us, but now we have "Wine" to make our hearts glad. Is our God a Great God or What? Some do not believe so. They believe wine is from evil for that is what "man" says.

Guess what?? Thorns and thistles are still growing on this old cursed earth.

Perhaps the above has helped to understand.

If the curse were lifted from the earth, God would not have to destroy it with fire in the future as He said He would do.

We shouldn't try to change what God says. He didn't say He lifted the curse. He says "any more" cursing of the ground for man's sake is stopped - not eradicated.

If we continue to read on into chapter 9 we see blessing, and then further on something has happened to the ground that was cursed, but now good healthy plants can also be grown. Not only will this now recognizable product given to man make his "heart glad", but also can make "merry". This is a good place for us to begin telling the truth and explain to our children we "make our own bed in life", and we should to our best not to overeat, over drink. When we do we are over lusting, and over coveting.

 

[ituttut]

And you are confusing the alcoholic wine of the Bible (that which God forbids) with the non-alcoholic wine of the Bible (that which God allows).

You need scripture to back up your claims. You have the word of man, and you believe the words they want you to believe. Why do you want to believe them, for you know from where their information comes from?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I do not see where the curse was lifted, just that no more curse would be added.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Thorns and the thistles are still with us, but now we have "Wine" to make our hearts glad.

Why not try rightly dividing the Word of Truth instead of twisting it to your own destruction?

Now you are saying because there are thorns and thistles growing in the ground, we need to drink alcoholic beverage?? Boy, are you deceived.

 

[ituttut]

This is amazing. I do not drink. I am a Baptist. All I pointed out is that the actual Baptist doctrine says Christians CAN drink strong drink based on scripture. I also pointed out that the Baptist discipline is abstinence. I agree pretty much with the position. But that position is not the entirety of scripture. It is specific and is foundational for a social concern. I am not unaware that earlier generations could preserve things and make juice. Churches and people pretty much used wine as it's an easy thing to do. I know, as I've brewed both wine and beer. The world is full of polemics and writings to buttress beliefs. No matter what you wish to believe.

Other churches have disciplines also. But the members pretty much know that it is a discipline not a doctrine. An example would be Catholic Priest not marrying. No Catholic believes that position is a "Doctrine" based on scripture. It is a "discipline"
based on the needs of the church and the perceived needs of the church members. A discipline can be changed at any time. A Doctrine cannot.

The Baptist doctrine says clearly that Christians can drink strong drink. The discipline says they should not. I agree. But many Baptist (unlike catholics) think Baptist doctrine is abstinence. It is not. It is a social position taught for the good of society and members based on selective sampling of scripture. As I said before no legitimate scholar, or honest person, can reach that position based on all scripture.

Most that argue this topic don't know the difference between a doctrine and a discipline. There is no argument if you are a Baptist and accept their doctrine.
Christians can drink, BUT SHOULD NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS AND CONCIENCE.

Nice post. However if one does it in the privacy of their own home, they can enjoy this gift from God. But there are some devious among us that will "spy" and then even "gossip" about it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

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If one were to look at the Hebrew word of cursed in Genesis 3:17 '[FONT=&quot]rra[/FONT]', and compare it to the Hebrew word for curse in Genesis 8:21 '[FONT=&quot]llq[/FONT]', one would see that the curse spoken of in the latter was not the curse pronounced upon the earth proclaimed by God in the garden of Eden.
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God has not removed the curse pronounced to Adam.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

double post

 

[Linda64]

Nice post. However if one does it in the privacy of their own home, they can enjoy this gift from God. But there are some devious among us that will "spy" and then even "gossip" about it.

What makes you think that God cannot see you?

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. (Psalms 139:7-10)

Fermented wine is NOT a gift from God. The unfermented "fruit of the vine" (which Jesus gave to His disciples to drink at the Last Supper) is what makes the heart glad. Go back and rightly divide. The word "wine" is generic--it can mean "unfermented" or "fermented" when taken into context--of what comes before and what comes after.

Christians can drink, BUT SHOULD NOT, FOR THE SAKE OF OTHERS AND CONCIENCE.

Well, that is a double-minded statement if I ever heard one. Either Christians can drink--or they can't--there are NO gray areas. Why be conformed to the world in this one area (drinking) and "be not conformed to this world" in all other areas? Isn't that being a bit hypocritical? You can't please the world and please God.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Matthew 6:24)

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1-2)

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.(James 1:6-8)

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Hebrew "yayin" (wine) includes all types both fermented and unfermented drinks. (2) Yayin when fermented makes one drunk as in Gen. 9:21-24. There are indeed passages of scripture using the word yayin, which according to the context are obviously referring to the non-alcoholic wines. Isa 16:10 "...the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses ...." (KJV) Also, Jer 48:33 " ... and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: ..." (KJV) Alcoholic, fermented wine doesn't squirt out of the grape freshly placed into the press, only pure grape juice, unfermented and non-alcoholic "yayin." This is the "wine" Isaiah said there was a blessing in.

exerpt from 'Drinking' by Ronnie Hoover

 

[Allan]

ituttut:

It is funny how it is a 'supposed' gift to all men, but it is forbidden (those who are seperated unto God or serving God) to some and to others it states they also should not touch the stuff (Kings, princes, and Pastors).

Wow, a gift to some and not others. You sound Calvinistic.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

If God is not a respector of persons as His Word says, how can He tell some they can drink alcohol and others they cannot?

 

[Allan]

Nice post. However if one does it in the privacy of their own home, they can enjoy this gift from God. But there are some devious among us that will "spy" and then even "gossip" about it.

Please show me in scripture where it EVER says a person who knows it is a stumbling block or offence to another, where they can go home and privately do it.

However, I can show you scripturally where Paul says if it cause one to stumble, he will NEVER partake as long as the earth standeth.
I can also show you scripturally where Paul states to mimic him (as in follow his example), for he mimics Christ.

Just let me know if you need to see them, ituttut.