Strong Drink -The Baptist Truth

[webdog]

That is about the most ridiculous accusation you have made to date, webdog.

Because what HBSMN said lined up with the Word of God and I agree with the Word of God, you accuse me of being an idolator?

I said I disagreed with HBSMN, he said if I disagreed with him, I disagreed with the Word of God, to which you replied I disagreed with the Word of God. This can only mean you agree with HBSMN and believe HBSMN is the Word of God.

You sir, need to study the Word of God with the mind of Christ rather than presuppositions that all wine is alcoholic as you posted in an earlier post.

You sir, need to study how wine is made and coincide that with the Bible.

Josephus was a famous historian who apparently gave himself to seeking out the truth of what happened during those days of Pharaoh's and kings

If he saught the truth...why didn't he believe in Christ?

The account posted by HBSMN, and Scripture clearly show that non-alcoholic wine was served and drank, and preferred above the alcoholic wine.

I showed from HBSMN's own "proof text" that what was said is NOT what HBSMN was saying the text said. It wasn't squeezed directly into a cup and consumed. I can't see how anyone reading that gets that.

he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink, and that he received it from him with a pleasant countenance.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have gone through the posts from today and cannot find where HBSMN said, 'If you disagree with me, you disagree with the Word of God.' Help me out here webdog... where is that post?

The fact is, it is not there. Do you have to lie about HBSMN in order to try to discredit him?

HBSMN used Scripture, and a famous Historian who lived back in the 1st century A.D.. You are not disagreeing with HBSMN, but with Scripture and Josephus.

Your accusations of me and HBSMN are unfounded and unChristlike.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You sir, need to study how wine is made and coincide that with the Bible.

If he saught the truth...why didn't he believe in Christ?

I showed from HBSMN's own "proof text" that what was said is NOT what HBSMN was saying the text said. It wasn't squeezed directly into a cup and consumed. I can't see how anyone reading that gets that.

he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink, and that he received it from him with a pleasant countenance.

1. You mistakenly think wine made today is made the same way it was in Bible days and that all wine was alcoholic.

2. You did not show HBSMN was wrong, you just twisted the ancient account to your own liking. I can strain seeds, stems or skins out of freshly squeezed grape juice, that does not make it alcoholic. The grapes were fresh from the vine, the juice was squeezed and given to the Pharaoh.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

There is none so blind as he who will not see. That which was squeezed from the grape was indeed fresh new wine... tiyrowsh.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I don't have time to continue. I have better things to do.

 

[Jerome]

Only one problem...it wasn't consumed directly after it was squeezed...
I see:
A. grapes squeezed into the kings cup
B. cup given to whomever to "strain"
C. at some point the cup with WINE was given back to the king to drink.

Genesis 40:11
And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

Where is any indication of a "time lapse to account for fermentation because alcohol is an essential component of wine" in the verse?

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I have already (earlier) dealt with the what scripture equates with "making the heart glad".

Is this where you dealt with "making the heart glad", using the Isaiah passage to interpret the Psalm 104:15 reference?

and here it speaks specifically to the gladness and those things which are comparable (slaying, killing, eating and drink - are references to feasting or partying) because there is no hope tomorrow- they WILL die.
Quote:
Isa 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Genesis 40:11
And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.

Where is any indication of a "time lapse to account for fermentation because alcohol is an essential component of wine" in the verse?

You're deriving the formula of wine making from a recounting of a cupbearers dream?

 

[ituttut]

ituttut second page answering Allen.

ituttut: I have faith before God in public, and privately. I can do things with Him, and also with Him and others that I can't do in the presences of certain one's that do not understand - Romans 14:22.

Allen: You contention here is also incorrect regarding us doing what we please privately.
Let us look at it in context: Here is your verse (even out of context it holds no water.
Quote:
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

Have that faith to thyself before God. Not do it privately but keep it to yourself (your understanding of that knowledge) But it isn't finished, It states that "Happy is he that does not condemn himself by doing that which he can do.' How can you condemn yourself doing that which you understand you can do biblically. We find that in the context of the preceding verses:

If I condemned myself would mean I am sinning, which I am not. He would not be pleased with me.

You fail to grasp close contact with God is in private. Go into your closet and pray about this matter. He is with me whether I am alone or with others. We cannot escape. We are to have our privacy when not acceptable to others in public.

It is good to not do too much praying (too long) in public, and we shouldn't do too much drinking in public either. People notice that perhaps we are showing off in our liberty and freedom in Chris in either of the cases. He understands us, when many people do not.

Quote:
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

I believe perhaps there is a more simple answer (shown below), than what I show here. But many do not believe that answer, so here is a long explanation in my belief.

Let's keep our sins straight here, and begin at the 1st verse. We wouldn't be having doubtful disputations, if we were "weak in our faith". We need to determine who the "weak" are. These are those who are not sure about certain aspects of conduct and are perhaps anemic, and could be looked on as handicapped in the faith, maybe for the reason of extra baggage, so we should not take advantage of them, as we have fellowship with them. They should not judge us, and we should not judge them. The weak will tend to lean toward the "Law" for support and want to think of certain days as Holy, and perhaps some meats and drinks unholy, and perhaps only on certain days.

But in the Baptist church today do you really believe you will find one that is so weak that they would not eat meat, and any kind of drink, because it had been offered to idols?

Tell me in your church if you have lunch or dinner on the grounds, or a suitable building for eating, or gathering at a restaurant. If so do you are someone else get the attention of all and ask if it is all right to have "meat" at the meal? There are some vegetarians at my church, and one of my grand daughters will not eat "red meat", but only chicken or turkey, and has not done so for 14 years. They all do it for various reasons for the body, but not one has it tied to their faith. I also know none of them believe if a Christian has a glass of wine, will make them stumble in their faith. A good many do not partake, but they do not judge if they know one in fellowship does, and those that do don't judge them.

We have to be careful of the children (newbie's in Christ), making sure in their presence, we find if we will make them stumble if certain things are done. It only takes a moment. We accept what they say, and refrain from harming them, while in their presence, and hope some gossiper doesn't stir up trouble. I have seen this before, but after awhile the "weakling" becomes "strong" in their faith.

Long ago, the first time I asked one whom I knew was "weak" in the faith was a Catholic friend I occasionally ate lunch with. I had learned Catholic's (good Catholic's) had a thing about Friday, and Fish. The day came, and I asked if it would offend him in anyway if I had a steak. He said of course not, as I know we do not believe exactly the same. He did not judge me, and I did not judge him. He was strong in his faith, which I considered weak compared to mine, for I felt obliged to ask before taking the chance of making him stumble in his faith. As far as I know I've never encountered a Christian in Baptist fellowship that was so offended that it would make them "stumble". It may offend them, and they may think it is a sin, but they are not weak. They just judge.

Having gone through all that, I'll end with what I mention above about "Law". I believe if we really take a close look at chapter 14 we see the Gentile and the Jew being brought together. And we know at that time there were two (2) gospels. One for the circumcised and one for the uncircumcised. What did we Gentile's have to worry about if meat was offered to an idol, or worry about the Sabbath? The Gentile needed to bring them along slowly, for they had been taught all their life to obey the Law. What Baptist in their right mind tries to obey the Law of "meats, and Holy Days"? Whoops! I take that back about observing Holy Days. But I will not judge in this matter.

Due to length, last page will follow, after cutting the grass.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Joseph did not say the dream was silly and that was not how wine was made.

And as pointed out earlier, artifacts with the very etchings described in Genesis have been found. So, why argue that it was just a dream in which wine can be squeezed from the cluster?

 

[dan e.]

If you have a presupposition that refuses to change, then your mind will not be changed on any matter.

As for the funda-crazies (not fundamentalists, but funda-crazies), your mind will not be changed. Not because of the Bible, but more likely because of your generation, or upbringing. There are brothers and sisters in Christ who do not think it to be wrong to have a drink. You need to GET OVER IT. You are wasting time and energy damning everyone because you interpret a Hebrew word differently. Aren't you funda-crazy BAPTISTS? Which means in the priesthood of the believer, which should allow for others to interpret differently than you. Others are not subject to believing like you, no matter how funda-CRAZY you act, or how much you slam your favorite line down: "If you disagree with me you disagree with God." or "you aren't disagreeing with me, but with God". God save us from any kind of funda-crazy church that makes everyone believe the way they do. You show such lack of cooperation and love for others who think the NIV is okay, using listerine is fine (God forbid the alcohol), and women wearing a pair of shorts is not defiling. If you can't get over that.....I question you. I would not want you in any position of leading or teaching because you clearly are stuck up on something.....and it is probably that people aren't like you. WHEW!

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I would not want to be in leadership position of a people whose ears and heart are stopped from receiving the Truth.

 

[dan e.]

Thats a shame, because those are the people who need Godly leaders. That's the problem, you want to lead those who are just like you.

 

[gb93433]

I would not want to be in leadership position of a people whose ears and heart are stopped from receiving the Truth.

There is always a remnant. But if you want large numbers of people who are open then go to poor countries. They find a way to get things done without complaining about the lack of money. They are those who James talks about as being rich in faith.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

NO, I would rather be in a church where people were hungry for the Word of God than to be where people want to be tolerated and told that they are not in sin if they clrarly are.

I want to be in God's perfect will...not man's.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

There is always a remnant. But if you want large numbers of people who are open then go to poor countries. They find a way to get things done without complaining about the lack of money. They are those who James talks about as being rich in faith.

I have been in a poor country. I have seen starvation. Not just physical starvation, but spiritual as well.

I have been to places where faith was exercised, and God answered.

Sadly, America... and many people who claim to be of God are spiritually starving because they want to satisfy the flesh rather than please God.

 

[gb93433]

NO, I would rather be in a church where people were hungry for the Word of God than to be where people want to be tolerated and told that they are not in sin if they clrarly are.

I want to be in God's perfect will...not man's.

It is amazing how many times I have heard someone talk about how nice a person must be and then assume that person is a Christian because he is nice.

 

[dan e.]

I deleted what I had written because it is not worth it. I've already gotten everything off my chest. I think it is okay that you don't agree with drinking. I understand your interpretation, yet disagree. I wish you well and will remember to pray for those in different positions than me.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It is amazing how many times I have heard someone talk about how nice a person must be and then assume that person is a Christian because he is nice.

Sadly, that is what many base their Salvation on, niceness... or works.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Now you are making things up to make yourself sound holy. Good job. I didn't say anything about people not wanting to hear about their sin. You don't want to be around those that are different.

Pardon me???

Did I say dan e. said people do not want to hear about their sin? No, I am sure I didn't.

But it is true that most do not want to hear about their sin. And I would not want to be in a leadership position in a church such as that. As a matter of fact, the Word of God say if they don't receive your report, have nothing to do with them.

That being said, I leave you to your defending people's rebellion.