Strong's, Lexicons and Greek Semantics

[TomVols]

Online Bible (www.onlinebible.net) is also free and packs more wallop than E-Sword.

John, this reminds me of the old and true saying: Young's isn't young, and Strong's isn't strong!

 

[John of Japan]

John's a gamer and plays Civ? Should we believe he's sleeping?
I think he might be starting another game. :laugh:
No wonder we haven't seen to much of him lately.
Civilization takes a looong time to play.

I plead the 5th....

Well the best lexicons are the ones you have and use.Strong’s Concordance [hardcover] has a lexicon of sorts in the back but it could be compared to an elementary school dictionary; it is quite limited in scope and keyed to the KJV.

Digital lexicons make the game of searching incredibly fast and independent of the version, cross linking with other lexicons in Logos Bible Software.

Looking forward to John's reviews.
Maybe I'll cover the Hebrew lexicons later.

Rob

I do hope you and maybe preachinginjesus can cover the Hebrew ones. I'm deficient there.

 

[glfredrick]

I am not a pastor, but a retired businessman. I do not translate Hebrew or Greek texts and I have never had a course in either language. However, I do personal word studies using the NIDOTTE and NIDONTT series from Zondervan. This series is designed for people who want to do Bible word studies, do not translate, and are willing to read articles in English written by scholars at the nontechnical level for lay people. The backbone for both the OT and NT series are the extensive indexes (last volume in each series).

(snip)

I am sure I do not have the best approach. However, it is what I purchased several years ago and I continue to use these resources for personal Bible word studies. You may have noticed many of my resources are keyed to the NIV 1984, except the Holloday OT lexicon and BAGD NT lexicon. For some, that may be a problem. For me, that is not a problem at all.

...Bob

Bob, Those are solid study materials and should serve you well. Have you looked at electronic versions? Best thing is the incredible search function and the speed at which one can dig in. A man with a computer, some good software, and a bit of knowledge on how to use the languages and software can complete a search in 10 minutes that would have taken a doctor of the church a lifetime to complete. Studies like Lochyer's valuable "All the _____ of the Bible" series take seconds to complete.

Solasaint, I'd say that your needs depend on your level of study -- and whether you wish to dig all over the Bible or just one particular pericope. A good lexicon will show you the places where the same word is used all over -- something that a commentary will not show. As for laying out the usage "in context" the commentary (if decent scholarship and not with "liberal" bent -- there are some out there that are not worth their weight in paper!) will win hands down. The lexicon focuses on the word, the commentary on the passage that the word is in, if that makes sense.

 

[John of Japan]

I used Thayer's a lot during my Greek studies:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1565632095/?tag=baptis04-20

If one wishes to use printed media, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition (Bauer, Danker):

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0226039331/?tag=baptis04-20

For Hebrew, it is hard to beat the Brown-Driver-Brigg Hebrew Lexicon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1565632060/?tag=baptis04-20

It is also necessary to have a great Hebrew and Greek text to go with those printed study materials. I prefer the Nestle-Alland with critical apparatus and dictionary and the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (better font and better mechanism):

http://www.amazon.com/dp/343805115X/?tag=baptis04-20

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1598561634/?tag=baptis04-20

Strongs is useful for primary searching, but that is about all.

I now almost exclusively use electronic lexical aids. They are WAY fast and more complete and up to date than any printed version.

I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 1800 volumes on my hard drive and use just about every major software package out there (and some difficult to find versions as well). The preponderance of great electronic media available to the biblical scholar today is outstanding, and the man who refuses to use the new resources is, in a way, suggesting that God doesn't know about and has not, in His sovereignty, allowed us more access to the text than ever before in history.

Thanks for your comments. I'll discuss Thayer's later.

 

[John of Japan]

Online Bible (www.onlinebible.net) is also free and packs more wallop than E-Sword.

John, this reminds me of the old and true saying: Young's isn't young, and Strong's isn't strong!

But Crudens.... :laugh: Old Crudens literally went nuts. His nickname was "Crudens the Corrector," since he went around correcting everything he saw wrong. He would have been perfect for the BB. He ended up in an insane asylum off and on, as I remember.

 

[John of Japan]

I have a question concerning dictionaries and lexicons. For good bible study and preparation for teaching is it better to use dictionaries or to rely upon a good commentary which usually has Greek definitions. I use John MacArthurs NT Commentaries and feel I really don't need a Greek lexicon. Please tell me if you think I should invest in one despite using good commentaries? Thanks!

Hi, SolaSaint. The advantage for you in having a good lexicon is that you can then make up your own mind. When you depend on a commentary you sometimes lock yourself into that view. If you have a good lexicon you can make up your own mind based on your own insights. Having said that, I do use commentaries for insights, and think they are valuable, but depend first of all on direct insights from the original languages. I hope this helps.

 

[glfredrick]

Thanks for your comments. I'll discuss Thayer's later.

Thayers was just "easy." Sort of like using the ASV -- "cheating" when it comes to Greek class.

 

[John of Japan]

I am not a pastor, but a retired businessman. I do not translate Hebrew or Greek texts and I have never had a course in either language. However, I do personal word studies using the NIDOTTE and NIDONTT series from Zondervan. This series is designed for people who want to do Bible word studies, do not translate, and are willing to read articles in English written by scholars at the nontechnical level for lay people. The backbone for both the OT and NT series are the extensive indexes (last volume in each series).

....

I am sure I do not have the best approach. However, it is what I purchased several years ago and I continue to use these resources for personal Bible word studies. You may have noticed many of my resources are keyed to the NIV 1984, except the Holloday OT lexicon and BAGD NT lexicon. For some, that may be a problem. For me, that is not a problem at all.

...Bob

Hi, Bob.

Thanks for your recommendations. I'm impressed that you are doing your best without having any training in the original languages. You are a good example for others on the thread who have no training, yet want to dig deeper.

 

[Amy.G]

Hi, Amy.

I don't know your situation, but if you can't read Greek, any real lexicon becomes a problem, since there are no romanized (English alphabet) lexicons. For anyone who has no training but wants to graduate beyond Strong's, here are suggestions.

Thanks John! I don't read Greek, but I do want to go beyond Strong's.

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me and for the suggestions.

 

[John of Japan]

Since Thayer's has been mentioned a few times already, I'll discuss it now.

First of all, it's a good deal better than Strong's, that's for sure. Thayer's was the standard lexicon from the time it came out in 1885 (revised in 1889) until 1957, when Bauer's work was published in English. It was based on a previous work by C. G. Wilke in 1841. My father used it from when he was at Wheaton College in the 1940's. However, for modern day Greek studies Thayer's has two major problems.

(1) It is very out of date, since it is more than 100 years old. There have been many, many papyrii discovered since then, and scholars now have much more to work with in determining Greek meanings.

(2) Thayer's depends too much on etymology (also known as historical or diachronic linguistics, the study of word origins and changes in meaning), as other works from that era did. Linguists nowadays reject etymology as a way to determine contemporary meaning in 99 times out of 100. (The exception is when a word is extremely rare and there are no other clues as to its meaning.) Note what Moises Silva says about using etymology to determine meaning: "Although it would be a serious mistake to dismiss the method altogether, every proposal must be carefully scrutinized and evaluated on the basis of established semantic principles, such as the centrality of lexical structure and the determinative role of context" (Biblical Words and their Meanings, p. 44). David Alan Black also has a useful chapter in Linguistics for Students of New Testament Greek.

To sum it up, because of these reasons I almost never consult Thayer's when doing NT translation. I'll write more later on how meaning should be determined when I talk about how a translator decides on a word in the target language to represent a word in the original language.

 

[John of Japan]

I have Civ IV, great games. Love that they take a long time to develop if played on marathon mode.

Don't you love being a dictator or king, maybe even conquoring the world? :thumbs:

Should be an interesting conversation. I've got my favorites for both Testaments but I'd enjoy hearing your perspective.

I hope you and Deacon can give insights about Hebrew lexicons later. I'm deficient there.

 

[Luke2427]

It's Sunday evening, the services are over, I just won Civ III with the Space Race for the first time. Life is good! So I thought I'd start a thread I've been thinking about.

Sounds great!

A week or two ago my youthful opponent

You know, I wish 31 with five kids felt as youthful as you keep saying. That would be tremendous!raying:

in a BB debate insisted--twice in spirt of my objection--that Strong's should be authoritative.
So I quit the thread,

These exchanges would be so much better if you would even come CLOSE to represnting me rightly.

I said Strong's definition is fine until you can produce a lexicon to contradict it. You did not, nor could you, and let's be honest- you quit because it was obvious that you were going to get smashed in that subject. When several other guys joined in and pointed out that Paul was indeed pretty rough at times- you were done. :tonofbricks: So you retreated.

You did not retreat because of Strong's.

since that's a crock.

I find that to be very abrasive. It is absolutely hilarious to me that you called me abrasive for saying one of your arguments was full of baloney- and then you say stuff like this.:laugh:

We tend to be blinder to our own faults when rebuking others and that is why Scripture says "HEY!!! You who judge! Are you stupid? You do the same things!!!" That's the South Mississippi translation. Look for it at Lifeway soon- I think Nelson is going to take it up!:wavey:

 

[Mexdeaf]

Sounds great!

Luke,

Let's just kindly not rehash the hash on this thread. Thanks!

 

[Jim1999]

I bought my 1890 Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in 1978 because my older copy was worn out. I stick with the KJV of scripture, so it serves me well, and prolly will to my dying day. It is only a reference book to me and not a final authority.

Whilst many words have changed meaning over the years, one can determine meaning from the overall context even better than a one-word definition.

Most of my commentaries are old too. They remain useful. I don't even know a lot of the new theologians.

By the way, I found two examples of letters written in 1658 and 1669, which are interesting use of "modern" English. I am trying to copy them so I can print them on the Board.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[BobinKy]

John & glfrederick...

Thank you for your kind words.

To be honest, I know I am fumbling around in the dark when it comes to taking Biblical word studies all the way back to the Hebrew or Greek. Just going to blueletterBible.org and listening to the pronunciations tells me how much I do not know.

I also know it would take many years and many classes with trained scholars before I could begin with the original languages. I am within an hour's drive of several seminaries and I have thought many times of taking Hebrew and Greek classes because I have been told by several that you need a classroom learning environment to really learn the languages. I accept my ignorance and am satisfied with what I can learn from the books I do have and people willing to share in the online forums and blogs.

. . .

Dr. Bob mentioned classical Greek.

I also am reading translations of classical Greek authors. Currently, I am reading Homer's Iliad and Pindar's Odes. I read English translations and commentaries. Yes, they have commentaries for classical Greek authors!

. . .

Amy and others, you might want to check out the online tools at www.blueletterBible.org before buying a lexicon. They have Thayer's, interlinears, fonts, and pronunciations.

But there may be other online websites with similar or better tools.

. . .

(full circle)

John & glfredrick...

I know software would be faster and easier. But I like doing the quest with dusty old books. Reminds me of unrolling an old map and hunting for King Solomon's Mines. :thumbs:

...Bob

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,

Let's just kindly not rehash the hash on this thread. Thanks!

Suits me but John is the one who brought up the previous thread- not me. I am responding to John's reference to the previous thread.

 

[BobinKy]

Everyone...

I will be offline through the next two weeks--except for checking personal messages.

Please continue with the thread. I look forward to reading all of the good stuff about lexicons, dictionaries, and other resources.

. . .

Merry Christmas and remember the reason for the season.

...Bob

 

[glfredrick]

I like books... I have several thousand -- all read.

I just like software for dealing with biblical language issues.

I know a man who taught himself Koine Greek. He ended up as the Dean of Boyce College (Southern Seminary's undergrad school) and as the editor of the HCSB Apologetics Study Bible. Not too bad for homeschooled...

It is very possible to learn Greek at home.

All of Mounces Greek classes are available on-line for free. Just pick up his textbook and workbook and follow the classes as he (one of the world's foremost experts) teaches.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/biblical-greek/william-mounce

For those looking for Greek-lite -- to use as a study tool, check out this class by Mounce:

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/greek-tools-bible-study/william-mounce/foundations

Either of those two classes would cost several hundred dollars plus registration at a seminary somewhere. Great resources!

 

[Amy.G]

I just remembered I have Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament words.

I can't believe I forgot that.

Is it recommended by any of you?

 

[John of Japan]

I bought my 1890 Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in 1978 because my older copy was worn out. I stick with the KJV of scripture, so it serves me well, and prolly will to my dying day. It is only a reference book to me and not a final authority.

Whilst many words have changed meaning over the years, one can determine meaning from the overall context even better than a one-word definition.

Most of my commentaries are old too. They remain useful. I don't even know a lot of the new theologians.

By the way, I found two examples of letters written in 1658 and 1669, which are interesting use of "modern" English. I am trying to copy them so I can print them on the Board.

Cheers,

Jim

Thanks for posting, Jim. I'd love to see your letters!