Study history or shut-up

[12strings]

Why the, at best, negative title and, at worst, insulting title of the OP?

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

(signed---a Reformed leaning conservative who thinks Crabtownboy is wrong in most of his political posts, and who loves reading church history)

 

[quantumfaith]

So.....did you like the article? Luke used winman as an example because he openly despises historical reference, or any other form of offered correction.
Winman and Luke, luke and skan, clash all the time on this...although skan will offer some sources from his pov sometimes.

Icon....I don't Winman despises historical references, rather it is his judgement that although history is informative and edifying...those that write it are every bit as fallible as we are. Now please do not read this that I am putting myself up as some source of great wisdom (or anyone else) rather WM is portraying the position that each one of us (as believers) has some degree of ability to read, interpret and understand scripture,history and natural revelation. NONE of us has complete and utter wisdom and understanding even with respect to what we as mankind CAN understand.

 

[quantumfaith]

We must bear this in mind when we consider the future of Christianity, in the light of its past. During the past half century there has been a rapid and uninterrupted secularization of the West, which has all but demolished the Augustinian idea of Christianity as a powerful, physical and institutional presence in the world. Of St. Augustine's City of God on earth, little now remains except crumbling walls and fallen towers, effete establishments and patriarchies of antiquarian rather than intrinsic interest. But of course Christianity does not depend on a single matrix, hence its durability. The Augustinian idea of public, all embracing Christianity, once so compelling has served its purpose and retreats, perhaps, one day, to re-emerge in different forms. Instead, the temporal focus shifts to the Erasmian concept of the private Christian intelligence and to the Pelagian stress on the power of the Christian individual to effect virtuous change.

Certainly, mankind without Christianity conjures up a dismal prospect. The record of mankind with Christianity is daunting enough, as we have sen. The dynamism it has unleashed has brought massacre and torture, intolerance and destructive pried on a huge scale. For there is a cruel and pitiless nature in man which sometime impervious to Christian restraints and encouragements. But without these restraints, bereft of these encouragements, how much more horrific the history of the last 2000 years might have been. Christianity has not made man secure or happy or even dignified. But it supplies a hope. It is a civilizing agent. It helps to cage the beast. It offers glimpses of real freedom, intimations of a calm and reasonable existence. Even as we see it distorted by the ravages of humanity, it is not without beauty. We are leaning that mans capacity for evil is almost limitless. Man is imperfect with God, without God what is he? "They that deny God destroy man's nobility, for certainty man is of kin to the beasts by his body and if he be not kin to God by his spirit, he is a bas and ignoble creature."(F Bacon) We are less base and ignoble by virtue of divine example and by the desire for the form of the apotheosis which Christianity offers. In the dual personality of Christ we are offered a perfected image of ourselves and eternal pace-setter for our striving. By such means our history over the last two millennia has reflected the effort to rise above our human frailties. And to that extent, the chronicle of Christianity is an edifying one. (Paul Johnson)

 

[Aaron]

The above is essentially saying that the church and the manner in which it interacts with basically good, yet marred, humanity is evolving. It is trying to synthesize Augustinianism with Pelgianism through Darwinism. Both were right, he says, in their time.

It's a bunch of B.S.

qf needs to come to terms with Genesis.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon....I don't Winman despises historical references, rather it is his judgement that although history is informative and edifying...those that write it are every bit as fallible as we are. Now please do not read this that I am putting myself up as some source of great wisdom (or anyone else) rather WM is portraying the position that each one of us (as believers) has some degree of ability to read, interpret and understand scripture,history and natural revelation. NONE of us has complete and utter wisdom and understanding even with respect to what we as mankind CAN understand.

All trusted guides are to be read cautiously.WM always dismisses them, then usually calls me a parrot
[when I post a link that he cannot begin to respond to]......then proceeds to mangle every verse he tries to speak about.For these reasons he comes to mind as the poster-child for those who remain in error that has been historically addressed.

rather WM is portraying the position that each one of us (as believers) has some degree of ability to read, interpret and understand scripture,history and natural revelation.

QF- this goes without saying, does'nt it? So did the puritans.Before being hyper critical of them.....we should examine them as time permits.

No one advocates reading them more than scripture. I have two books by Benjamin Keach that are thicker than phone books.Lets say he has 60 percent truth and 40 percent weak or questionable ideas.
That 60% is gained by the reader much faster than the reader trying to re-invent the wheel . It is put right before your face...take it or leave it!

The op wording is a bit rough or crude,and yet it gets to it:thumbs:read and learn, or ignore it and most times post in ignorance.

Even in the 40% IN THE ABOVE EXAMPLE....in finding where a writer went off is also instructive as we are forced to seek the biblical remedy.:thumbs:

 

[Jkdbuck76]

History is WIDELY popular amongst baptists.

Just go look at the 800,000 threads in the Baptist History section here on BB.

:tonofbricks: :laugh: :tonofbricks:

 

[Luke2427]

Why the, at best, negative title and, at worst, insulting title of the OP?

I have no problems with the list in the referenced article. Another way of putting, in a more general sense, it is:

to gain an understanding from past experience which helps us understand the present.

to follow examples of good models and figures and through their experiences it helps us make decisions in our own lives.

to better understand your life and universe, the world we live in and how we got here.

to feel pride of your country, culture, faith, humanity, and world history, but also to help us understand our shortcomings in all these areas.

to proceed into brighter future in better steps, at least that is a goal.

to get lessons and wisdom, drawn from others to apply to our lives.

to help us clarify our own beliefs by reading both those we agree with and those we do not agree with.

Remember reading is a dangerous activity. It may force you to accept new ideas and beliefs and jettison long held positions and beliefs. But that is a definition of maturing...IMHO.

Have you ever READ the way Jesus approached ignorance and arrogance in the Gospels????

This generation that was raised in the hippie era will soon depart from us. And though there are certainly some wonderful people in that group who are better than their generation, the disappearance of this wussified, peace-nik, weak, pusillanimous perspective of Christ and Christians will be a MONSTROUS blessing to the Church.

What possible spectacles could you be wearing when you read Jesus call people morons that makes you think that ANYTHING I say in this thread is inappropriate?

 

[saturneptune]

All trusted guides are to be read cautiously.WM always dismisses them, then usually calls me a parrot

That is one name I have never called you. I have only used the word "parroted" in relation to repeating creeds on Sunday morning. From being in classes a large part of my life, I believe history of anything to be a very valuable tool to learn lessons about life. History of the church is no different. In fact, if one pays attention to the history of the church and the world in general, and one is a Christian, it is not hard to see God's hand in guiding events.

We all realize that we are flawed beings, so any history is going to contain error, but that does not mean that we totally dismiss obvious lessons to learn. All of the past theologeans mentioned in this thread have something to offer, and at the same time no doubt they wrote things we do not agree with. Dismissing history and past writings is a very dangerous way to look at things. History does not have to meet the standard of Inspired to be valuable.

 

[12strings]

Have you ever READ the way Jesus approached ignorance and arrogance in the Gospels????

This generation that was raised in the hippie era will soon depart from us. And though there are certainly some wonderful people in that group who are better than their generation, the disappearance of this wussified, peace-nik, weak, pusillanimous perspective of Christ and Christians will be a MONSTROUS blessing to the Church.

What possible spectacles could you be wearing when you read Jesus call people morons that makes you think that ANYTHING I say in this thread is inappropriate?

Telling People to "shut up" in a public discussion cannot be equated to Jesus rebuking his opponents for several reasons:

1. (most obviously) We are not Jesus. The simple fact is we are not called to do every single thing Jesus did in the exact same way he did it. Jesus is God, we are not.

2. Several Scripture passages warn against unnecessary harshness, and encourage gentleness, even with opponents:
-1 Timothy 5:1 - Do not rebuke an older man but encourage him as you would a father, younger men as brothers. (Do you know the age of each person you are rebuking here?)
-2 Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
-2 Timothy 2:25 - correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

3. Someone once said in another thread:

One should consider effectiveness before embarking on a particular ministry.

(This was YOU, btw) It seems that your FOUR threads started with essentially the same topic of harshly hammering those who do not use logic as well as you have not been effective in converting them to your position.

 

[Winman]

Boy, Luke was right, I'm just an old guitar playin' hippie.

Here's an old song I'm dedicating to you Luke. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF6JMotbHYM

 

[MB]

http://donsweeting.wordpress.com/20...-getting-beyond-american-evangelical-amnesia/

This is why education is so VITALLY important to the development of theology and for pulpit ministry.

Do you mean Church History or Catholic History. You see I would have a problem thinking of the church as Catholic. Catholics are not part of the Church. There fore not part of Church history. I say this because after all you are a Calvinist and this is where your doctrine came from.

Catholics murdered true Christians for disagreeing with there so called church. I just can't find it in me to call murders, Christian.
MB

 

[Winman]

Do you mean Church History or Catholic History. You see I would have a problem thinking of the church as Catholic. Catholics are not part of the Church. There fore not part of Church history. I say this because after all you are a Calvinist and this is where your doctrine came from.

Catholics murdered true Christians for disagreeing with there so called church. I just can't find it in me to call murders, Christian.
MB

Luke's main man Calvin was pretty good at killing people too. :thumbsup:

From 1541 to 1546, John Calvin caused 58 people to be executed and seventy six were exiled. His victims ranged in age from 16 to 80. The most common capital offense was the opposition to infant baptism. Today, baptism only for accountable believers, is a Baptist distinctive. In Calvin's time it was punished either by drowning, a drawn out and slow burning at the stake, or beheading. All this was done in public, with city residents compelled to watch the butchery. The executions were spaced out so as to exert a continuing policy of fear and terror. Others were killed for advocating local church autonomy; opposing the tie-in of church and state: and preaching that Christ died for all sinners (unlimited atonement). Press censorship continued in Geneva until the eighteenth century.

What a role model for all Christians to follow.

 

[Amy.G]

Do you mean Church History or Catholic History. You see I would have a problem thinking of the church as Catholic. Catholics are not part of the Church. There fore not part of Church history. I say this because after all you are a Calvinist and this is where your doctrine came from.

I don't understand why you say Calvinist doctrine came from Catholicism. That makes no sense. Catholics clearly follow a works based salvation while Calvinists believe salvation is given by grace and NOT of works.

 

[Jerome]

This generation that was raised in the hippie era will soon depart from us. And though there are certainly some wonderful people in that group who are better than their generation, the disappearance of this wussified, peace-nik, weak, pusillanimous perspective of Christ and Christians will be a MONSTROUS blessing to the Church.

And how would you characterize the coming generation? Thoughtful young men?

 

[quantumfaith]

The above is essentially saying that the church and the manner in which it interacts with basically good, yet marred, humanity is evolving. It is trying to synthesize Augustinianism with Pelgianism through Darwinism. Both were right, he says, in their time.

It's a bunch of B.S.

qf needs to come to terms with Genesis.

You have a nice day too Aaron. You will not goad or chide me..

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you mean Church History or Catholic History. You see I would have a problem thinking of the church as Catholic. Catholics are not part of the Church. There fore not part of Church history. I say this because after all you are a Calvinist and this is where your doctrine came from.

Catholics murdered true Christians for disagreeing with there so called church. I just can't find it in me to call murders, Christian.
MB

Like it or not Church History is part of Catholic History.

 

[Luke2427]

And how would you characterize the coming generation? Thoughtful young men?

Much much more so than the hippy generation. That generation made aids an epidemic, drugs a plague, lost prayer in schools, had the highest divorce rate in American history, stood by as abortion was legalized, spit on troops returning home from giving their lives for the country, hosted massive sex orgies on the whitehouse lawn, created the entitlement crisis that now cripples this nation, and I could go on.

People who reached maturity in the sixties and seventies make up the worst generation in the history of this nation.

Christianity on their watch has become a pusillanimous, impotent wussified bunch of nothing.

Now, as I said before, many wonderful people better than their generation rose out if that mess.

But this syrupy sweet, weak "Christianity" that they left us will hopefully die out and disappear from the face of the earth as the hippy generations dies off.

I pray it will be replaced by a bold, passionate Christianity like we see in the Bible, during the reformation and the great awakening.

Anybody who tells you that Christians should never be fierce, controversial, and abrasive is probably one of these sissy types from the hippy generation.

May God deliver us from them and the near worthless Christianity they left us.

 

[MB]

I don't understand why you say Calvinist doctrine came from Catholicism. That makes no sense. Catholics clearly follow a works based salvation while Calvinists believe salvation is given by grace and NOT of works.

Amy I know you are new at Calvinism. Calvinism is the exact same doctrine the Catholic Church was founded on However modern Calvinist did drop 2 of the original seven pedals of the tulip. Including infant baptism I might be wrong but, I believe Presbyterians and Lutherans still practice it. And yes it was originally called Augustinian ism. Augustine was the author of this doctrine. Calvin was it's promoter. He promoted all seven pedals. The seventh I believe was the inheritance of election, Or maybe it was inheritance of Salvation I for get which.
You must not have known what you were getting in to if you didn't know this. Reformers are reforming the Catholic church. Just like reformed Mormons reformed the Mormon faith. This was John Calvin's priority
MB

 

[MB]

Like it or not Church History is part of Catholic History.

I disagree with that nonsense. Baptist are not from the catholic faith only the Calvinist Baptist are . By the way Calvinism wasn't always in the Baptist faith. They infiltrated our church and made a few converts now they try to Claim the Baptist community. Anna Baptist were not Calvinistic and they my friend existed before the reformation.
MB

 

[MB]

Much much more so than the hippy generation. That generation made aids an epidemic, drugs a plague, lost prayer in schools, had the highest divorce rate in American history, stood by as abortion was legalized, spit on troops returning home from giving their lives for the country, hosted massive sex orgies on the whitehouse lawn, created the entitlement crisis that now cripples this nation, and I could go on.

People who reached maturity in the sixties and seventies make up the worst generation in the history of this nation.

Christianity on their watch has become a pusillanimous, impotent wussified bunch of nothing.

Now, as I said before, many wonderful people better than their generation rose out if that mess.

But this syrupy sweet, weak "Christianity" that they left us will hopefully die out and disappear from the face of the earth as the hippy generations dies off.

I pray it will be replaced by a bold, passionate Christianity like we see in the Bible, during the reformation and the great awakening.

Anybody who tells you that Christians should never be fierce, controversial, and abrasive is probably one of these sissy types from the hippy generation.

May God deliver us from them and the near worthless Christianity they left us.

There no different than the generation before it. They just didn't hide there sins and lie about it. The whole world has been a sinful place ever since Adam walked out of the Garden. The whole generation is not responsible for what a few Hippies did. You are simply confused it isn't the people it's Satan himself.
MB