Submission is...do you agree?

[IveyLeaguer]

IveyLeaguer,

You represent an interesting perspective in your post and I wanted to get your thoughts on the following passages:

27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. (Lk 6:27-36).
​

12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Eph 6:12).

I believe we are indeed commanded to love those who are entrenched against the Kingdom of God and seek opportunities to show that love in practical way. The battlefield we war upon is not this world and our enemies are not PEOPLE.

Jesus did indeed love those who were against Him, and He loved you and I when we were His enemies, lost in the depths of our corruption and sin. He still does and so should we.

Yes, I agree with you.

That's what I was getting at by trying to distinguish between government itself and the people who work for the government. If Homeland Security bursts through my door one day and arrests me for refusing to deny Jesus Christ, then I hope I will have compassion on those who are just doing their job, even if they do what they do in ignorance of what they are really doing, just as Jesus must have loved the soldier who lost his ear at the hand of Peter's sword (except there'll be no armed resistance on my part, since that isn't my battle and I have zero ability to heal).

And your point that the primary battlefield is a spiritual one, fought in heavenly places, is the foremost thing to recognize and be conscious of. This truth is consistently represented throughout the Scriptures, especially in the Old Testament, where it is described in some detail. Yet we have largely ignored it, at least in my generation. I suspect most Christians, especially those who are active in major 'Christian' movements, are barely aware of the reality of the spiritual world around us, if they are aware of it at all. Christians have involved themselves in all sorts of earthly political battles, and they were never battles the Lord called us to fight. Instead of helping to carry out the Great Commission, we have instead harmed it by fighting, often self-righteously, on this level.

But I can still hate the things that God hates, just as the Scriptures say. I can hate deception, lying, false teaching, sexual sin, and all sorts of abominations that are prevalent in the church, business community, culture and government today. I can hate the works of the wealthy elite who operate in powerful geopolitical circles, because they do the works of their father, Satan. Their objective is to carry out his plan, and thwart the plan of God. But still, I hope I would do my best to impress the gospel upon any of them, should I have the opportunity.

This would be much tougher, because instead of a common soldier obeying an order, I would now face one who is giving orders, a high ranking officer and conspirator of Satan's earthly army. This is more akin to loving the man who just brutally murdered your wife and children. Yet there is a sense that we should do so, as you have pointed out.

There is a spiritual sense in which I can love my enemy, but he is still my enemy. To glorify Christ in his presence, to give him aid if he was wounded on the side of the road, to give him food if he was starving, are examples of ways I might love him, just as I would any neighbor. But to love him to the extent that I would join him, in any sense whatsoever, would be crossing the line, as I would then be abandoning my Lord.

So it can be a difficult distinction to make.

~~~

 

[saturneptune]

I don't think it has much inherently to do with love and respect, though that makes it easier. It means authority.

That is not so, in any aspect of life. If one cannot earn the respect, then the authority was never there to start with. It has everything to do with love in a spiritual sense. If my wife submitted to me out of fear or brute force, I would just as soon have a relationship with a hat rack. If the submission is because of a memorized verse, with no love or respect exchanged in a Christ like marriage, why even be married?

The same goes in the workplace. If you have no respect for your boss, you can smile and say yes boss, I will do it, and either it will never get done or done just to get by.

Love and respect is the driving force behind any relationship. Does it make any sense that you would submit your life to the Lord out of fear with no love or respect? Authority without love and respect is a waste of time. You know, kind of like the Pharisees, looks really good on the outside, and baloney on the inside.

 

[SaggyWoman]

That is not so, in any aspect of life. If one cannot earn the respect, then the authority was never there to start with. It has everything to do with love in a spiritual sense. If my wife submitted to me out of fear or brute force, I would just as soon have a relationship with a hat rack. If the submission is because of a memorized verse, with no love or respect exchanged in a Christ like marriage, why even be married?

The same goes in the workplace. If you have no respect for your boss, you can smile and say yes boss, I will do it, and either it will never get done or done just to get by.

Love and respect is the driving force behind any relationship. Does it make any sense that you would submit your life to the Lord out of fear with no love or respect? Authority without love and respect is a waste of time. You know, kind of like the Pharisees, looks really good on the outside, and baloney on the inside.

I totally agree.

 

[Martin Luther]

Do you agree with this comment:

Submission is not about authority and it is not about obedience; it is all about relationships of love and rewspect.

Nah, Submission is the act of yielding, out of fear, respect, or just plain obedience

 

[Pastor Larry]

Let's consider the actual Scriptures:

That is not so, in any aspect of life. If one cannot earn the respect, then the authority was never there to start with.

Consider 1 Peter 2:18-19: Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

Notice that submission is commanded even to unreasonable masters, i.e., those whom you do not love and respect. I don't love and respect many police officers, but I submit to them. We could go right on down the list. The bottom line is that, biblically, submission is not based on love and respect but on God ordained authority. Col 3:22-24 directly addresses this. Employees do not submit for the sake of their master, but for the sake of God himself. Titus 2:8-9 say to submit to adorn the gospel.

If my wife submitted to me out of fear or brute force, I would just as soon have a relationship with a hat rack. If the submission is because of a memorized verse, with no love or respect exchanged in a Christ like marriage, why even be married?

Another good example that Peter directly addresses: 1 Peter 3:1-2 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

Here, wives are told to be submissive even if their husbands do not honor Christ, i.e., if there is no love and respect. Wives don't submit to their husbands because of their husbands, but because of Christ.

The same goes in the workplace. If you have no respect for your boss, you can smile and say yes boss, I will do it, and either it will never get done or done just to get by.

See above. It is almost as if Peter anticipated your objections ... or that these objections have been made for centuries and have long been answered by God himself.

Love and respect is the driving force behind any relationship.

No it's not. I have many relationships that have nothing to do with love and respect.

Does it make any sense that you would submit your life to the Lord out of fear with no love or respect?

Biblically, yes. The Bible quite often uses fear as a motivator, such as when Christ says, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Authority without love and respect is a waste of time. You know, kind of like the Pharisees, looks really good on the outside, and baloney on the inside.

No, not really. I don't care whether you love and respect the police. I do care if you fear them enough to drive on the right side of the road.

My points remains: Love and respect make it easier to submit to authority, and if you are in authority you should love those under you and earn their respect. But if you, as one under authority, don't have masters or leaders whom you love and respect, you are to submit anyway. That's what the Bible says.

I don't see any place in the Bible where submission is predicated on love and respect.

Do you know of a place in the Bible (not in pop psychology or someone's mind somewhere) where we are commanded to submit only to those whom we love and respect? If so, please bring it up so we can take a look at it.

 

[donnA]

If I respect my employer, it is a lot easier to submit to him or her. If I don't respect them, it is harder, but I must still submit.

Exactly, you submit because they are your boss, they have authority over you.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Exactly, you submit because they are your boss, they have authority over you.

I submit because I have a relationship with God and I want to please him.

 

[Jim1999]

Amen, Saggy...and this is why this submission works both ways and not just in management vs worker relationships.

I submit this is also true of a marital relationship and how it is meant to work.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Pastor Larry]

I submit because I have a relationship with God and I want to please him.

This is exactly the point of the Bible passages I quoted earlier. It doesn't depend on "love and respect." It depends on God.

 

[Jim1999]

Bang on...it ALL depends on God, but may include love and respect as a result.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[SaggyWoman]

This is exactly the point of the Bible passages I quoted earlier. It doesn't depend on "love and respect." It depends on God.

It depends on my love and respect for God.

 

[Jim1999]

ONe cannot have love and respect without submitting to His Authority; His sovereignty......It is a question of order.....which comes first, the chicken or the egg.
In my opinion.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[saturneptune]

Let's consider the actual Scriptures:

Consider 1 Peter 2:18-19: Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable. For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.

Since we are talking about Christian standards here, and since everything we have comes from God, if the person hated his master, as you put it, he would still submit to that master because of his love and respect for the Lord. Without that element, there is no submission. The love and respect are gifts from God, as is the situation one is given. You cannot seperate love, respect, and submission, especially in a setting of a non believer.

Notice that submission is commanded even to unreasonable masters, i.e., those whom you do not love and respect. I don't love and respect many police officers, but I submit to them. We could go right on down the list. The bottom line is that, biblically, submission is not based on love and respect but on God ordained authority. Col 3:22-24 directly addresses this. Employees do not submit for the sake of their master, but for the sake of God himself. Titus 2:8-9 say to submit to adorn the gospel.

Again, the job is the same as above. There is an element of love and respect for God, but there is an element of love and respect. In most cases for the Christian, if in God's will, I would think he or she would be at a job that they liked and had respect for their boss. If not, they need to change jobs.

Another good example that Peter directly addresses: 1 Peter 3:1-2 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

This is a two way street. The Bible also says, which I do not see in any of your examples, for the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church. Why would anyone be married without love and respect? What kind of Godly marriage is based on submission with no love?

Biblically, yes. The Bible quite often uses fear as a motivator, such as when Christ says, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

No, not really. I don't care whether you love and respect the police. I do care if you fear them enough to drive on the right side of the road.

The only time your argument approaches reality is the government-citizen relationship. Many Christians detest the government they are placed under by God because of ungodly actions, yet we are called to submission. This truly takes a respect coming from God. All you have to do is look at our present government situation to observe.

My points remains: Love and respect make it easier to submit to authority, and if you are in authority you should love those under you and earn their respect. But if you, as one under authority, don't have masters or leaders whom you love and respect, you are to submit anyway. That's what the Bible says.

Your point remains in theological flames.

Sorry bud. Love and respect are in the picture whether it is a respect for God and His word, or repect and love that comes from Him within us. Submission is a by product. Try again.

I don't see any place in the Bible where submission is predicated on love and respect.

I do not see any place in the Bible that says there are green men on Mars, but really doubt there are.

 

[HankD]

I don't see any place in the Bible where submission is predicated on love and respect.

I haven't read through the whole thread but has anyone mentioned these verses?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,​

Joshua 22:5 But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.​

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

HankD​

 

[saturneptune]

I haven't read through the whole thread but has anyone mentioned these verses?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,​

Joshua 22:5 But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.​

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

HankD​

Bingo, excellent Scripture

 

[SaggyWoman]

1 John 4:7-8

Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God, and everyone who loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not, knoweth not God for God is love.

KJVOnly.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you guys are going to change the subject, then so be it, but the original subject was about love and respect in relationships, not about love and respect for God.

The Bible also says, which I do not see in any of your examples, for the husband to love the wife as Christ loved the church. Why would anyone be married without love and respect? What kind of Godly marriage is based on submission with no love?

I have mentioned several times that the one in authority should be loving and trying to earn the respect of those under him or her. So I have mentioned it, but the examples I gave were directly addressing your point, which was not about that.

In most cases for the Christian, if in God's will, I would think he or she would be at a job that they liked and had respect for their boss. If not, they need to change jobs.

That's not always possible, and it's not always wise for a variety of reasons.

Your point remains in theological flames.Sorry bud. Love and respect are in the picture whether it is a respect for God and His word, or repect and love that comes from Him within us. Submission is a by product. Try again.

Not at all. Again, notice how you changed the subject. I have repeatedly talked about our relationship with God dictating the fact that we submit to others, even if they are ungodly. So I addressed this point already.

I do not see any place in the Bible that says there are green men on Mars, but really doubt there are.

I wasn't aware were addressing green men on Mars. The fact remains that the Bible does tell how to relate to people in authority who have not earned our love and respect. We are to submit to them anyway. I do not have to love or respect the person in authority in order to submit to them. I can obey God and submit to them anyway.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I haven't read through the whole thread but has anyone mentioned these verses?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

Deuteronomy 11:13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,​

Joshua 22:5 But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.​

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

All great verses, but none of which tell me that I have to love and respect someone in authority before submitting to them.

 

[saturneptune]

I wasn't aware were addressing green men on Mars. The fact remains that the Bible does tell how to relate to people in authority who have not earned our love and respect. We are to submit to them anyway. I do not have to love or respect the person in authority in order to submit to them. I can obey God and submit to them anyway.

Wrong again, theology breath. The fact is that love and respect are there. It is either for the Lord, who gave it to us in the first place, or for the boss, master, spouse, etc as an individual. If both are absent, there is no submission or basis for submission.

1 Cor 13 clearly states that without love, there is just noise.

 

[Amy.G]

All great verses, but none of which tell me that I have to love and respect someone in authority before submitting to them.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been said already, but I don't think we have to love and respect those who have authority over us. We are to love God. Out of that love, we will treat others with love (not the emotional kind) and respect.


Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Eph 6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: