Submissiveness

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Fishnbread:
Diane..... I would also like to ask your forgiveness if I made think that I was saying that you agreed with SaggyWoman on the male moron issue.

Fishnbread, I didn't take it that way at all. I also tend to answer two people in one post and sometimes things seem to run together. I understood that you were speaking to two of us about different issues.

Goodness, where have I been?

Saggy, nope, didn't mean you (scripture concerning nagging wives, etc.) but when the issue of YOU being submissive came up, I mentioned that you aren't married. I don't believe women are taught that we have to be submissive to ALL men.

Do I think a wife can say 'no' and still be submissive? No. I do think, in a good marriage, a wife can say 'I'd rather not because of XYZ' but if hubby says this is his decision, then the wife is to honor his decision. I find no scripture that says the wife cannot express her thoughts or share concerns. We take our needs to our heavenly Father and a wife should be able to talk openly to her God given husband.

She should THEN honor his decision, according to the scripture.

Do we allow our children to tell us 'no'? That would be rebellion!

Note: None of my replies refer to a husband asking a wife to break God's laws or do something immoral!

Diane

 

[Marcia]

I don't think the husband-wife relationship is the same as the parental-child relationship. Children are told in Eph 6.1 to obey their parents but nowhere do the scriptures command a wife to obey her husband.

To submit is different from obedience and God uses that word for wives instead of obey; I think submission encompasses respect most of all, and honoring the husband's role as spiritual head and honoring his decisions but she can disagree and discuss this with the husband. The marriage mentors at my church say that husbands need respect most of all from their wives and wives need love most of all from the husbands. That is what the Bible speaks of. So husbands are commanded to love their wives, and the wives are not commanded to love the husband.

If the husband loves his wife the way he is told to do, he will not ask his wife to do things that cause her great disturbance, or at the very least, he will deal with that lovingly and not like an autocrat.

33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. Eph 5.33

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
In other words, a wife never has the right to say 'no' without being in rebellion (regardless of the 'demand' or the circumstances)?

If the husband is asking the wife to do something against God's will - she most CERTAINLY can say "no" and still be in submission to God (thereby not being 'out of submission' to her husband).

Sorry, I don't think you're right on this one guys...

Please ladies let your anger ease a bit. Read my words and you will see that I said the same thing. If it is against God then no, she should obey God. We have no rights, we belong to God. Nowhere is life claimed to be fair for christian or non. We are to obey. I would like someone to seperate obey and submit. If you submit to someone's will YOU WILL OBEY. Can you say you submit to someones will and not obey? Yeah we do it all the time claiming to be christians, and not yeilding to the father's will. But that is not really submission is it? This topic is a perfect example of that.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I don't think the husband-wife relationship is the same as the parental-child relationship. Children are told in Eph 6.1 to obey their parents but nowhere do the scriptures command a wife to obey her husband.

To submit is different from obedience and God uses that word for wives instead of obey; I think submission encompasses respect most of all, and honoring the husband's role as spiritual head and honoring his decisions but she can disagree and discuss this with the husband. The marriage mentors at my church say that husbands need respect most of all from their wives and wives need love most of all from the husbands. That is what the Bible speaks of. So husbands are commanded to love their wives, and the wives are not commanded to love the husband.

If the husband loves his wife the way he is told to do, he will not ask his wife to do things that cause her great disturbance, or at the very least, he will deal with that lovingly and not like an autocrat.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. Eph 5.33

</font>[/QUOTE]What does submit mean to you?

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fishnbread:
Diane..... I would also like to ask your forgiveness if I made think that I was saying that you agreed with SaggyWoman on the male moron issue.

Fishnbread, I didn't take it that way at all. I also tend to answer two people in one post and sometimes things seem to run together. I understood that you were speaking to two of us about different issues.

Goodness, where have I been?

Saggy, nope, didn't mean you (scripture concerning nagging wives, etc.) but when the issue of YOU being submissive came up, I mentioned that you aren't married. I don't believe women are taught that we have to be submissive to ALL men.

Do I think a wife can say 'no' and still be submissive? No. I do think, in a good marriage, a wife can say 'I'd rather not because of XYZ' but if hubby says this is his decision, then the wife is to honor his decision. I find no scripture that says the wife cannot express her thoughts or share concerns. We take our needs to our heavenly Father and a wife should be able to talk openly to her God given husband.

She should THEN honor his decision, according to the scripture.

Do we allow our children to tell us 'no'? That would be rebellion!

Note: None of my replies refer to a husband asking a wife to break God's laws or do something immoral!

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]It seems you have a grasp on the scripture Diane. Believe me, I do not argue this with glee or pride because I am the head. Alot of times I don't want that responsiblity but that doesn't matter what I want. I have a wonderful wife who is my equal and friend. I respect her decisions and discernment more then my own.

 

[dianetavegia]

The word submit is a military term which explicity calls for orders to be followed.

Submit: New Testament/ uJpeivkw from and eiko (to yield, be "weak")
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hupeiko None

hoop-i'-ko Verb

Definition: to resist no longer, but to give way, yield (of combatants) metaph. to yield to authority and admonition, to submit

SURRENDER

 

[dianetavegia]

From Ephesians 6:1 Children OBEY...

OBEY: uJpakouvw from (5259) and (191)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hupakouo 1:223,34

hoop-ak-oo'-o Verb

Definition to listen, to harken
of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
to harken to a command to obey, be obedient to, submit to

 

[Elnora]

Tim Toolman,

I believe you see anger because people put ideas forth that aren't scriptural and give the impression that women have a problem with submitting when the real issue is submitting to an idea that is not supported in scripture.

Then it is implied, or sometimes outright spoken that they are rebellious. Anyone can take a few scriptures and support their ideas. We are to conform our ideas to all of God's word. Not try to dissect it make it conform to our view.

I can't quote the whole new testament here but Jesus and Paul both taught the disciples that we were not to lord authority over one another. For a Christian to demand obedience is unscriptual.
When God commands obedience it is to all of us. We submit as unto the Lord. Some cannot make the distinction.

 

[Elnora]

I just answered you argument Diane. Take the whole counsel of God.

 

[Elnora]

It may be a military term. It still means yield and submit. In context. That does not mean to act in a militant way. It is contrary to scripture.

 

[dianetavegia]

Titus 2:3 Likewise, tell the older women to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household, kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.

 

[Elnora]

No disagreement with that. Can you show me the scriptures that tell a man to order his wife around or yet beat her at his whim? Or the scriptures that a wife is to demand love. The emphasis should be on submitting to Christ. These arguments all fall away if we fulfill his command to love one another. Christ is to be the focus.

 

[dianetavegia]

Can you show me the scriptures that tell a man to order his wife around or yet beat her at his whim? Or the scriptures that a wife is to demand love.

Of course not because those are not Christ like behaviors! This is not an emotional issue but a cut and dried scriptural mandate in my reading.

Demand love? We don't deserve anything less than Hell, let alone love! The Bible tells us:

1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

 

[Rooster]

Can you show me the scriptures that tell a man to order his wife around

No, nobody could, but I can show you where it is a mans respnsibily to be head of the house (the steward)

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom [his] lord shall make ruler over his household, to give [them their] portion of meat in due season?

1 Corinthians
4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

A man isn't commanded to order his wife around, but he is commanded to be a good stewrd of his house, and family, and as Spiritual leaders, the argument you make, isn't against what man (humans) think, but against what God is telling us in his scripture, therefor if you do not submitt to your husband, you are not rebelling against man, but against God.

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can you show me the scriptures that tell a man to order his wife around or yet beat her at his whim? Or the scriptures that a wife is to demand love.

Of course not because those are not Christ like behaviors! This is not an emotional issue but a cut and dried scriptural mandate in my reading.</font>[/QUOTE]Exactly. There are no scriptures that allow a husband to make demands. There are no scriptures allowing a wife to demand love. Pulling scripture out of context is not cut and dried. We all deserve hell, husband that demand and wives that demand. Or do you mean before the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Godly husbands and godly wives don't demand.

1 Corinthians 13
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Demand love? We don't deserve anything less than Hell, let alone love! The Bible tells us:

1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.

Only those demanding love deserve hell or those demanding respect too?

 

[Elnora]

No Rooster I didn't argue against any of the scriptures you just quoted. Read again what I did say.

 

[dianetavegia]

order his wife around or yet beat her at his whim is not the same as demand she do or not do something. We might use the word 'insist'.

[ October 26, 2004, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Rooster]

Let me say this...Feminisim is not a Biblical quality, that is not the divine order that God set up for us, he set up man to have dimminion over his family, when God created man, he created man for Himself, when he created woman he created woman for man:

1 Corinthians Chapter 11
11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you.

11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on [her] head because of the angels.

Paul is not a male chauvinist. On the contrary, he argues here for the euality of the sexes in personal worth, but distinction in function, and responsibility. The man is uniqly in the image of God is that to him was given dominion over the earth. This was done before the creation of woman. That is what ever dominion and authority she has is delegated. The key note of Pauls thought in verse 10 is submission to the divine order of things. Women should demonstrate the same sence of submission to God in reconizing thier true position, and fullfilling its claims, as do the angels who know nothing of insubordination among thier ranks.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Rooster:
... he [God] set up man to have dimminion over his family, when God created man, he created man for Himself, when he created woman he created woman for man:

Whoa, I think you missed a major scriptural point. The male was NOT made to have dominion, the male was made to have headship. BIG DIFFERENCE.

And, God DID NOT create MALE for himself, he created MAN (male and female) for himself. Gen1 states He creates man in His image, and he created man as male and famale. In other words, the female is made by God just as much for God as male. Otherwise, the way you prescribed, females should be worshipping males, not God. That might work on Ferenginar, but not on Earth.

 

[Elnora]

I will not respond to a change in subject to go down a new rabbit trail. This is not about feminism. Of which any christian who understands it should abhor. The original post was about a man demanding his wife concerning voting. It went wayward with what if's. I ask for scripture that allows an husband or a wife to demand anything and Diane rightly agreed there are none.