Submissiveness

[Marcia]

Posted by Timtoolman
What does submit mean to you?

What it means to me does not matter but how we see what it means in scripture is what counts. God did not use the word "obey" for the wife but "submit." He must have a reason for that.

I think many posts have already clarifed what "submit" means. I think it means an attitude of humility and service. The wife should respect the husband and let him take the lead in spiritual matters and maybe when it comes to certain decisions, if they disagree, she should let him decide (as long as it is not immoral or ungodly or is against her conscience).

I think that is why God does not use obey for husbands - parents can demand obedience from children but husbands cannot demand this of wives. Otherwise, God would have used the word "obey."

The husband leads and is responsible for certain things; the wife respects that role and submits from love but should not be forced to obey or expected to have to obey since scripture does not teach this. Submission is voluntary; obedience is not.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
In other words, a wife never has the right to say 'no' without being in rebellion (regardless of the 'demand' or the circumstances)?

If the husband is asking the wife to do something against God's will - she most CERTAINLY can say "no" and still be in submission to God (thereby not being 'out of submission' to her husband).

Sorry, I don't think you're right on this one guys...

again you argue about something that is not the issue. We all agree if its against God's will. HOwever not voting is not against God's will, nor house cleaning etc!

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by Timtoolman
What does submit mean to you?

What it means to me does not matter but how we see what it means in scripture is what counts. God did not use the word "obey" for the wife but "submit." He must have a reason for that.

I think many posts have already clarifed what "submit" means. I think it means an attitude of humility and service. The wife should respect the husband and let him take the lead in spiritual matters and maybe when it comes to certain decisions, if they disagree, she should let him decide (as long as it is not immoral or ungodly or is against her conscience).

I think that is why God does not use obey for husbands - parents can demand obedience from children but husbands cannot demand this of wives. Otherwise, God would have used the word "obey."

The husband leads and is responsible for certain things; the wife respects that role and submits from love but should not be forced to obey or expected to have to obey since scripture does not teach this. Submission is voluntary; obedience is not. </font>[/QUOTE]Whoa whoa this is so out of whack. It doesn't say submit to him only in spiritual matters, and submit means to yeild your will! HOw again can you submit your will to your husban, AS UNTO THE LORD, and NOT OBEY. I am totally lost with this kind of thinking. Should I not obey the government or laws because I don't have to submit only obey. Does that make sense? NO! you are stating the same thing with submit but not obey. It is a heart matter no doubt but if we take those verses in Eph titus and peter you arguement is from the flesh. "No one is going to tell me what to do". It is tuff no doubt. But your arguements are not biblical.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Elnora:
I will not respond to a change in subject to go down a new rabbit trail. This is not about feminism. Of which any christian who understands it should abhor. The original post was about a man demanding his wife concerning voting. It went wayward with what if's. I ask for scripture that allows an husband or a wife to demand anything and Diane rightly agreed there are none.

It is not about beating a wife either. That was made clear earlier in the debate!

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elnora:
The original post was about a man demanding his wife concerning voting.... I ask for scripture that allows an husband or a wife to demand anything and Diane rightly agreed there are none.

I agree 100%. The husband is not scripturally entitled to demand anything from the spouse, and a demand in regards to the voting issue is simply an abuse of the role of headship. The man, in effect, proves that he is no man at all, if he needs to resort to such.

Voting is an individual right. No spouse many demand that another spouse vote, and no spouse may demand that the other spouse vote in a certain manner. In fact, how one spouse votes is no one else's business, not even the other spouse's. If a spouse shares that info with the other spouse, it's to be considered private and privileged information. </font>[/QUOTE]Also a right to have an abortion.

 

[Timtoolman]

[][/QUOTE]No, the man cannot demand whatever he wants, because a husband is not given scriptural authority to demand at all. Now as far as sumbission, we must also not forget that the husband is also to submit to his wife (scripture says that both are to love as Christ loves, and both are to subit to each other as to Christ). A man submitting to his wife does not negate his headship. Headship, btw, is not authority, it's responsibility. A husband is not given authority to tell his wife "what do to". That's not scirptural headship. Likewise, the wife is not scripturally required to do whatever the husband says. That is not scriptural submission. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Then JOhn why even put in the order of authority, People to government, wife to husband, child to parent, slave to master? YOu have made those verses all meaningless. If we all submit to each other equally as you say then submit one to another is the end! What happens is God tells us to submit one to another and then tells us how, to government, husband, children to parents etc. You interptation makes those versers useless or just vain babbling that really has no meaning.

 

[dianetavegia]

What part of 'head of his household' is not understandable? The husband is head in ALL areas, not just spiritual decisions!

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Rooster:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When you take God's word and pick and choose the scriptures to fit your ideas,

I am not, a woman who will blatenly refuse to accept what God is saying, is the only one with the motivation to pick and chose, what the scriptures are saying, what motivation would I have? Its not commanding me to do one thing or the other. You are trying to find a loop hole for sin, and God is not allowing it, plain and simple. </font>[/QUOTE]BINGO!

 

[Timtoolman]

There are several things that keep getting quoted on here that just are not biblical. I hear some saying that they are to obey only good men. What does the scripture say? I Peter 3:1 In the same way, you wives be submissive to your own husbands so that if any of them are disobedient to the word they may be won without a word by the BEHAVIOR of their wives. Our counselor at my church insists that they can disobey to help their husbands be better Christians. Apparently she has a better way of doing it the God tells us. For He tells the wife to win the husband by obeying him and respecting him. What does it say in the following verses? To be gentle, quiet spirit which IS PRECIOUS in the sight of God? How does that fit in with all the women’s right movement going on today? Even the women in the church are loud, brash and husband bashers. Sarah OBEYED her husband and called him Lord!
So are we to obey husbands too? Well Sarah thought so. Titus 2:5 says to be subject to their own husbands. They are to be pure workers at home, kind being subject THAT THE WORD of God may be honored! Go ahead and disobey you dishonor His word and you show the world that God is not the ruler of your life.
Here is another line being thrown out here….wives are not commanded to love their husbands. I just have to shake my head here. In Titus 2:5 it tells the older women to teach the younger to be lovers of their husband and children, busy at home and also subject to their husbands. Maybe the older women need not teach that since it is not commanded.
One thing that is being taught here is that mothers would earn the respect of outsiders by manifesting these qualities, and prevent the word of God from being maligned The Lord will honor those who value what He values!
Let’s look at Eph 5:22 …as to the Lord. Consider it service rendered to the Lord. What part do we not understand here? That we serve not the husband but the Lord. It is service rendered to the Lord. How in the fact it shows outsiders and the backslidden too that we recognize the God as our Lord and follow his Word. It is not that the husband is Lord.
Verse 23, husband is the head of the wife ….this is compared to Christ’s headship over the church. How is the church subject to Christ…in everything? Yes. Verse 24 as the church is subject to Christ so also the wives are to be subject to their husbands in EVERYTHING! Would it not be foolish to think of the church as the head over Christ?
In Eph 5:21 it says to be subject to one another…then goes on to tell us how we are to be subject to one another. If it meant that all were to be equally subject why would it go on with the further examples of wives and husbands, church children etc? God has set up or ordained an order. Like it or not we only question His wisdom when we disobey.
I guess it bears repeating that I am not talking about wife beating or husband telling his wife to sin in some way we all know that to be covered under who we follow God or man. But ladies you better have some scriptural reason for disobeying your husbands because you not only dishonor him but also God and His word!

 

[TaterTot]

who is "disobeying"? Maybe you should just worry about your own household.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

If I have this right, Tim thinks his wife, Scrapper, is not being submissive because she wants to vote and he doesn't want her to.

Please forgive me if I have summed this situation up wrongly...

 

[SaggyWoman]

Where does this all fit in with the Proverbs 31 woman? She was one heck of a woman. I bet her husband didn't tell her she couldn't vote.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
If I have this right, Tim thinks his wife, Scrapper, is not being submissive because she wants to vote and he doesn't want her to.

Please forgive me if I have summed this situation up wrongly...

No blessed it was not my wife and I. I would not tell her to do that. But we disagree on whether the woman should submit to the husband or not. I believe you can't get around it, if it is not a sin then she should submit. I understand she doesn't have too but too please God I think it is clear.
There are others on here from my church that can verfy that this is not between my wife and I in case some doubt.

 

[Elnora]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Elnora:
I will not respond to a change in subject to go down a new rabbit trail. This is not about feminism. Of which any christian who understands it should abhor. The original post was about a man demanding his wife concerning voting. It went wayward with what if's. I ask for scripture that allows an husband or a wife to demand anything and Diane rightly agreed there are none.

It is not about beating a wife either. That was made clear earlier in the debate! </font>[/QUOTE]Okay for the what is this third time, fourth? Again, the subject started about a man telling his wife not to vote. Other posters were the ones changing the subject. I made it clear and I say again regarding the original post. There is not one scripture to assert the claim that a husband order his wife to vote and as others pointed out, is not Christ-like.

A man that mistakenly thinks he can tells his wife she can't vote will order her around on any other issue and he has no scriptural right to do so. He would be disobedient which in itself is sin. So for people to say she doesn't have to obey him in sin just made the point. When we give an account we won't be able to point at the other spouse as Adam and Eve laid blame, he, my wife, she the serpent. They both were held accountable each for their own sin seperately. He obeys God, she obeys God. It works. This boils down to people manipulating others and trying to justify it by using their views, not God's word. That is sin too.

 

[dianetavegia]

Well, as a testimony, Jim and I have been married 34 years. I was the submissive wife before he even realized I was supposed to be a submissive wife. I believe, by allowing him to be head of our household, that my life has been a lot easier than if I tried to wear the pants in the family. I also believe that's why our marriage has been so successful and loving.

My mother was the boss of our family, no doubt about it, and our family was always in turmoil. My parents are now divorced. The yelling and fighting on her part was a horrible thing to endure as a child. No One told my mother what to do!

I believe the wife is to submit in ALL things as long as it's not against God's laws. I believe scripture commands that of me and I have no problem with that command.

BTW.... Jim vacuumed for me earlier today and is helping with some of Nick's school work. He also repaired a large cage I'd been given so I could put my cat outside for part of the day. I asked him would he do it and he did it right away. He's carried out the garbage and put his breakfast dishes in the sink. He helped me make the bed and wiped up his sink when he's finished shaving, etc. I fold the clothes and Jim puts his away right away. In no way am I his slave.

In return, I adore my husband and thank God every day for choosing him for me! I have certainly been blessed. I only hope I've never disappointed him or my Heavenly Father in my role as wife.

Diane

 

[SaggyWoman]

I LOVE a man who vacuums.

 

[Timtoolman]

A man that mistakenly thinks he can tells his wife she can't vote will order her around on any other issue and he has no scriptural right to do so. He would be disobedient which in itself is sin. So for people to say she doesn't have to obey him in sin just made the point. When we give an account we won't be able to point at the other spouse as Adam and Eve laid blame, he, my wife, she the serpent. They both were held accountable each for their own sin seperately. He obeys God, she obeys God. It works. This boils down to people manipulating others and trying to justify it by using their views, not God's word. That is sin too. [/qb][/QUOTE]So its a sin not too vote? Thats your stand? And what scriptures have I manipulated?

 

[dianetavegia]

Our spouse WILL take blame!

Numbers 30: 1 And Moses said to the heads of the tribes of the children of Israel, This is the order of the Lord. 2 When a man takes an oath to the Lord, or gives an undertaking having the force of an oath, let him not go back from his word, but let him do whatever he has said he will do.

3 If a woman, being young and under the authority of her father, takes an oath to the Lord or gives an undertaking; 4 If her father, hearing of her oath or the undertaking she has given, says nothing to her, then all her oaths and every undertaking she has given will have force. 5 But if her father, hearing of it, makes her take back her word, then the oaths or the undertakings she has given will have no force; and she will have forgiveness from the Lord, because her oath was broken by her father. 6 And if she is married to a husband at the time when she is under an oath or an undertaking given without thought; 7 If her husband, hearing of it, says nothing to her at the time, then the oaths she made and the undertakings she gave will have force. 8 But if her husband, hearing of it, makes her take it back, then the oath she made and the undertaking she gave without thought will have no force or effect, and she will have the Lord's forgiveness. 9 But an oath made by a widow or one who is no longer married to her husband, and every undertaking she has given, will have force. 10 If she made an oath while she was under the authority of her husband, 11 And her husband, hearing of it, said nothing to her and did not put a stop to it, then all her oaths and every undertaking she gave will have force. 12 But if her husband, on hearing of it, made them without force or effect, then whatever she has said about her oaths or her undertaking has no force: her husband has made them without effect, and she will have the Lord's forgiveness. 13 Every oath, and every undertaking which she gives, to keep herself from pleasure, may be supported or broken by her husband. 14 But if the days go on, and her husband says nothing whatever to her, then he is giving the support of his authority to her oaths and undertakings, because at the time of hearing them he said nothing to her. 15 But if at some time after hearing of them, he makes them without force, then he is responsible for her wrongdoing. 16 These are the laws which the Lord gave Moses in relation to a man and his wife, or a father and a young daughter who is under his authority.

 

[dianetavegia]

I took THIS vow, oath ...

Diane do you take Jim to be your lawfully wedded Husband?

Do you promise to love, honor and obey him, forsaking all others and holding only to him from this day forward?

I did and I still do!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Rooster:
Is speaking about the unity of belivers, not the husband wife relationship, that begins in verse 22 with wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands...

If you believe that a husband is not required to submit to his wife, then, to be consistent, you must also believe a wife is not required to love her husband. After all, the verse says "husbands, love your wives ... wives, submit to your husbands". The verse doesn't say that wives are required to love their husbands.

Of course, that line of thinking is rubbish (though many CHristians believe it). A maritcal relationship is ESPECIALLY a situation calling for unity of believers. Hence, scripture calls for both spouses to submit to each other, and both are called to love each other. The scriptural issue of headship granted to the husband is not devoid of love or submission to the wife.