Subtlety of wrong doctrine.

[John of Japan]

Ok, John, let's see if any of these verses use mystery as the way the song presents it as it pertains to the actual lyrics.

Let me see. The NT says that Christ and the Gospel are mysteries. And the song says that Christ and the Gospel are mysteries. I think I'll just stick with that and disagree with you.

Ta ta for now.

 

[agedman]

Actually, that is not how it happened. There is voluminous correspondence between Rice and Graham in the John R. Rice Papers at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where I have done research for my upcoming book. And none of the issues were "little" in any way, shape or form.

Rice's concerns with Graham included:
1. Graham's support of the SBC cooperative program in late 1955 through a letter to the news organ of the Texas Baptist Convention. Rice strongly opposed the cooperative program. This concern was not shared by Jones Sr., who was not a Baptist. This is when the Rice-Graham relationship began to break down. Rice was angry, because this was a huge issue with him--not a "little fox."
2. Graham's refusal to agree with the "masthead" of the Sword of the Lord in 1956. Rather than say he would stand against modernism as the masthead said, Graham resigned from the cooperative board of the Sword. This was not a direct concern of Jones, since it involved the Sword and not cooperative evangelism.
3. The concerns of Rice and Jones finally coincided when Graham decided to have liberals on his crusade committee in 1957. However, Rice had been writing Graham about this issue long before the actual crusade. Rice was his own man. He didn't need Dr. Jones, Sr., to tell him when to take a stand, though they were best friends.

Just to be clear, the scenario you spoke of, Jones keeping Rice in line, is that propounded by Bob Jones, Jr.--and he was a cad.

At no time did I even allude to Jones keeping Rice in line.

Nor did I present any specifics of the conflicts between the three.

Rather I focused on the very beginnings. One distanced himself, and the other did also after the foxes had grown intolerable.

The rest can be researched as you have done.

I was merely using an account you would know about rather than dragging something out of what you would not be appraised.

The focus was on how dangerous little foxes become, not on the particulars and specifics of the maturity and health of them.

 

[agedman]

Let me see. The NT says that Christ and the Gospel are mysteries. And the song says that Christ and the Gospel are mysteries. I think I'll just stick with that and disagree with you.

Ta ta for now.

No, John.

The NT presents consistently that Christ came to fulfill, and to that end, it was recorded over and over the validation of His authority in such statements as, this was said or this was done that it might fulfill what was spoken.

What was NOT reveal and Christ presented during His time here and through the early work of the Apostles was the earthly outreach building of the heavenly Kingdom in which we call the church would not only include the Jews but Gentiles with full rights and privelages. That is exactly what I pointed out early in the discussion that Paul states in Colossians 1.

Now, it remains that the song takes the word "mystery" from the proper use and applies it to that which was NOT hidden.

There was no secret concerning His birth. Parent a virgin, born in Bethlehem, flee and return from Egypt...
There was no secret concerning His ministry and miracles. He calmed seas, quieted storms, confronted religious leaders, fed, healed, ...
There was no secret concerning His death. Lifted up on a tree, bruised with bones out of joint, vision marred,
There was no secret concerning His burial. Borrowed tomb, descending to minister to those held in paradise, ...
There was no secret concerning His resurrection nor the promise of His return and establishment of the Kingdom on earth, the conditions of nature, the land scapes, ....

Peter's sermon verifies this prior revealing, by quoting:

25David says about Him:

‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad
and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’d​

See, my point all along is that the song presents an error proclaiming "mystery" to what is not a mystery and in doing so not placing the mystery In which the deacons (in Timothy) are charged with continuing.

What I would like for you to do is merely take the lyrics and present some line, even a phrase that was not foretold and revealed by the ancients in the OT. That in fact some part of that song is actually based on the truth that it was all a mystery that no one knew about, and that was never part of the prophetic statements.

Seems to me that is a rather simple request.

If this became a topic of your classroom, how would you actually prove by use of the song itself that what you posit is reliable?

Perhaps it may become one, someday.

hmmm

for now.

 

[Particular]

There are so many songs and hymns that are sung, which provide little to no theological edification. Take the song "I Come To The Garden Alone" as an example. Congregations have sung this song for generations, but what value does it provide beyond sentimental feelings?
Lyrics:

I come to the garden alone

While the dew is still on the roses

And the voice I hear falling on my ear

The Son of God discloses.



And He walks with me and He talks with me,

And He tells me I am His own;

And the joy we share as we tarry there,

None other has ever known.



He speaks and the sound of His voice,

Is so sweet the birds hush their singing,

And the melody that He gave to me

Within my heart is ringing.



And He walks with me and He talks with me,

And He tells me I am His own;

And the joy we share as we tarry there,

None other has ever known.



I'd stay in the garden with Him

Though the night around me be falling,

But He bids me go; through the voice of woe

His voice to me is calling.



And He walks with me and He talks with me,

And He tells me I am His own;

And the joy we share as we tarry there,

None other has ever known.

 

[Ziggy]

Sounds like the theme song for Sarah Young's "Jesus Calling"....

 

[John of Japan]

At no time did I even allude to Jones keeping Rice in line.

That was the Jones Jr. narrative, which is what you appeared to be following.

Nor did I present any specifics of the conflicts between the three.

Rather I focused on the very beginnings. One distanced himself, and the other did also after the foxes had grown intolerable.

That's not how the history shows it.

The rest can be researched as you have done.

I was merely using an account you would know about rather than dragging something out of what you would not be appraised.

The focus was on how dangerous little foxes become, not on the particulars and specifics of the maturity and health of them.

I guess my problem is not understanding what you mean by "little foxes," because to me, none of the issues in this example were small.

 

[John of Japan]

No, John.

The NT presents consistently that Christ came to fulfill, and to that end, it was recorded over and over the validation of His authority in such statements as, this was said or this was done that it might fulfill what was spoken.

What was NOT reveal and Christ presented during His time here and through the early work of the Apostles was the earthly outreach building of the heavenly Kingdom in which we call the church would not only include the Jews but Gentiles with full rights and privelages. That is exactly what I pointed out early in the discussion that Paul states in Colossians 1.

Now, it remains that the song takes the word "mystery" from the proper use and applies it to that which was NOT hidden.

There was no secret concerning His birth. Parent a virgin, born in Bethlehem, flee and return from Egypt...
There was no secret concerning His ministry and miracles. He calmed seas, quieted storms, confronted religious leaders, fed, healed, ...
There was no secret concerning His death. Lifted up on a tree, bruised with bones out of joint, vision marred,
There was no secret concerning His burial. Borrowed tomb, descending to minister to those held in paradise, ...
There was no secret concerning His resurrection nor the promise of His return and establishment of the Kingdom on earth, the conditions of nature, the land scapes, ....

Peter's sermon verifies this prior revealing, by quoting:

25David says about Him:

‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26Therefore my heart is glad
and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,
27because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’d​

See, my point all along is that the song presents an error proclaiming "mystery" to what is not a mystery and in doing so not placing the mystery In which the deacons (in Timothy) are charged with continuing.

What I would like for you to do is merely take the lyrics and present some line, even a phrase that was not foretold and revealed by the ancients in the OT. That in fact some part of that song is actually based on the truth that it was all a mystery that no one knew about, and that was never part of the prophetic statements.

Seems to me that is a rather simple request.

If this became a topic of your classroom, how would you actually prove by use of the song itself that what you posit is reliable?

Perhaps it may become one, someday.

hmmm

for now.

The problem here is that you and I do not agree at all about what a Biblical "mystery" is. You keep repeating your own definition, ignoring the one I gave from the Friberg lexicon (you have yet to interact with it in the slightest), you keep asking that I hew to your definition.

Biblically speaking, a "mystery" is not what you are saying, but something not possible of being understood by the human mind. Here is the Friberg definition again: "in N.T. a mystery, a divine secret, something above human intelligence" (Friberg).

Now, here is the first verse of the song:

"Come behold the wondrous mystery
In the dawning of the King
He the theme of heaven’s praises
Robed in frail humanity."

The clear mystery here is the incarnation, which cannot be understood by the human mind. So the Scriptures call the incarnation a mystery in 1 Tim. 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh...." So the song correctly refers to the incarnation as a mystery in the first verse, just as Scripture does, though it is fulfilled prophecy. The song is good theology.

 

[agedman]

The problem here is that you and I do not agree at all about what a Biblical "mystery" is. You keep repeating your own definition, ignoring the one I gave from the Friberg lexicon (you have yet to interact with it in the slightest), you keep asking that I hew to your definition.

Biblically speaking, a "mystery" is not what you are saying, but something not possible of being understood by the human mind. Here is the Friberg definition again: "in N.T. a mystery, a divine secret, something above human intelligence" (Friberg).

Now, here is the first verse of the song:

"Come behold the wondrous mystery
In the dawning of the King
He the theme of heaven’s praises
Robed in frail humanity."

The clear mystery here is the incarnation, which cannot be understood by the human mind. So the Scriptures call the incarnation a mystery in 1 Tim. 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh...." So the song correctly refers to the incarnation as a mystery in the first verse, just as Scripture does, though it is fulfilled prophecy. The song is good theology.

“A Devine secret.”

Not any of the statements in the song were a “Devine secret.”

“...something above human intelligence,” but the magi understood. The rulers new, and the old man of the temple knew, John the Baptist new, Mary knew, ....

Neither the first nor the coming advent is “above human intelligence.”

Your own definition fits just fine in that which I gave.

A mystery is something yet to be revealed, whether hidden by God or man.

There was no divine secret concerning the Christ that the prophets did not fore tell.

If there were, by now certainly you would have better than quoting that line. For the “mystery” that the song is not that presented in 1 Timothy 3.

Rather, if you had merely read the previous verses you would see the writer is discussing the church.

14I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, 15if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. 16Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

Hee was manifested in the flesh,
vindicatedf by the Spirit,g
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.​

The mystery, according to Paul, secret, hidden from human intellect is the church.

 

[John of Japan]

“A Devine secret.”

Not any of the statements in the song were a “Devine secret.”

“...something above human intelligence,” but the magi understood. The rulers new, and the old man of the temple knew, John the Baptist new, Mary knew, ....

Neither the first nor the coming advent is “above human intelligence.”

Really? So you comprehend the infinite love and grace of God that gave us Jesus? I certainly don't.

Your own definition fits just fine in that which I gave.

If you believe that, you are careless with semantics (in the linguistic sense, not the popular sense).

A mystery is something yet to be revealed, whether hidden by God or man.

There was no divine secret concerning the Christ that the prophets did not fore tell.

If there were, by now certainly you would have better than quoting that line. For the “mystery” that the song is not that presented in 1 Timothy 3.

Rather, if you had merely read the previous verses you would see the writer is discussing the church.

14I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, 15if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. 16Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

Hee was manifested in the flesh,
vindicatedf by the Spirit,g
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.​

The mystery, according to Paul, secret, hidden from human intellect is the church.

The metaphor of the church as a household of God is followed by a clear statement of what "the mystery of godliness" is: the incarnation, etc.

Forgive me, but this week is extremely busy (missionary conference), and I don't really have time for this now.

 

[agedman]

Really? So you comprehend the infinite love and grace of God that gave us Jesus? I certainly don't.

Not what the song is about.

I see that in order to justify your view, you are attempting to apply factors unrelated to the lyrics.

You need to refocus upon the fact that nothing in the song was not presented prior to the first advent.

John states that "We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" but John in no place presents that as the mystery. Neither does Paul. I demonstrated that your presentation of 1 Timothy was about the church.

If you believe that, you are careless with semantics (in the linguistic sense, not the popular sense).

.

If the definition is consistent in both accounts, there is no carelessness. Are you not trying to draw distinction where there is none? Is not the "mystery" whether originating with God or man hidden and unrevealed?

The metaphor of the church as a household of God is followed by a clear statement of what "the mystery of godliness" is: the incarnation, etc.

Forgive me, but this week is extremely busy (missionary conference), and I don't really have time for this now.

John, you are missing the mark. The "mystery of Godliness" is that the church is made up of people that are the adopted heirs, that God is IN them, and therefor their actions must reflect that very Godly glory that Christ did while on this earth and is not risen as we shall be and He is now glorified as we shall be.

The focus is upon the redeemed - the church. Paul is discussing the church, and you are missing the emphasis if you shift the focus of why he wrote of the incarnation.

If the "mystery" were the incarnation, then the prophets would not have specified that the messiah would be considered as God. Therefore, the incarnation was not a mystery. Rather, "He came into His own and His own received Him not." They knew who he was, just as in the parable of the owner sending his very son, and the workers recognized him and slew him thinking there would be no retribution. The incarnation was NOT secret. "
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."


Have great success at the mission conference!

 

[agedman]

For the readers:


I ran across this list of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled concerning the Christ. It is not exhaustive, but is a good start. It is taken from: (List of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus). Note: use of the site does not come with full endorsement of all materials found there.

It presents the Bible prophecy reference, the summery of statement, and the NT fulfillment reference.

1
Gen. 3:15a
He would be human, born of a woman
Gal. 4:4-5, Matt. 1:18
2
Gen. 3:15b
He will reconcile people to God
Heb. 2:14, 1 John 3:8
3
Gen. 3:15c
He would crush evil at his own expense
Matt. 27:35, Luke 24:39-40
4
Gen. 22:18
He would be a descendant of Abraham
Matt. 11:27 & Luke 3:36
5
Gen. 26:1-5
He would be a descendant of Abraham's son Isaac
Rom. 9:7, Heb. 11:18, Matt. 1:2
6
Gen. 28:13,14
He would be a descendant of Isaac's son Jacob
Luke 3:34
7
Gen. 49:10
He would be a descendant of Jacob's son Judah
Matt. 1:2-3
8
Isa. 11:1-10
He would be a descendant of Jesse, a descendant of Judah
Matt. 1:2-3
9
Isa. 11:1
He would be a descendant of Jesse's son King David
Matt. 1:1
10
Gen. 49:10
He would appear after a succession of rulers from the Tribe of Judah
History: Josephus writes that King Herod's son was dethroned in 6 A.D. and replaced by a Roman Procurator.
11
Dan. 9:25
He would appear after the rebuilding of Jerusalem
History: Jerusalem had been rebuilt by the time of Jesus, after recovering from the Babylonian destruction.
12
Dan. 9:26
He would appear before the (Roman) destruction of Jerusalem
History: The Rom. destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
13
Mic. 5:2
He would be born in Bethlehem
Matt. 2:1-5
14
Isa. 7:13,14
Isaiah foreshadowed the virgin birth of Jesus
Luke 1:35
15
Isa. 7:14
He would be called Immanuel (God with us)
Matt. 1:23
16
Isa. 40:3–4
He would be preceded by a forerunner
Matt. 3:1-4
17
Mal. 3:1
A messenger would prepare the way for the Lord
Matt. 7:10
18
Isa. 61:1,2a
The ministry of Jesus is foreshadowed by Isaiah
Matt. 3:16-17, Luke 4:18, John 8:31-32, Luke 4:19
19
Isa. 9:1,2
He would appear in Galilee, be a light to Gentiles
Matt. 4:12-17, Luke 2:28-32
20
Isa. 35:4-6
He would perform miracles
Mark 10:51-52, Mark 7:32-35, Matt. 11:4-5, Matt. 12:10-13, Matt. 9:32-33
21
Ps. 78:1–2
He would teach in parables
Matt. 13:3, 13-15
22
Deut. 18:15-18
God promised another prophet like Moses
John 6:14, John 5:45-47, John 8:28-29, Acts 3:23, Heb. 6:4-6
23
Isa. 42:2-3
He would be humble, meek
Matt. 11:28-30
24
Ps. 2:1-12
He would be called God's son
Acts 4:25-28
25
Isa. 9:6,7
Isaiah spoke of a son who would be called God
John 10:30, John 20:27-29
26
Zech. 9:9
He would enter Jerusalem while riding on a donkey
Matt. 21:6-9
27
Ps. 41
Psalm 41 foreshadowed the betrayal of Jesus
John 13:18
28
Isa. 53:1-4
He would be rejected
Matt. 27:21-23
29
Dan. 9:24-26
Daniel predicted when he would be rejected
Matt. 16:21; 21:38-39
30
Ps. 22:6
Messiah would be despised
Luke 23:21-23
31
Isa. 53:7
He would be oppressed
Matt. 27:27-31
32
Isa. 53:7
He would be silent before his accusers
Matt. 27:12-14
33
Ps. 22:7
Messiah would be mocked by people shaking their heads
Matt. 27:39
34
Isa. 50:6,7
He would be beaten and spat upon
Matt. 26:67
35
Isa. 50:6,7
He would be spat upon
Matt. 27:30
36
Ps. 35:19
He would be hated without reason
John 15:25
37
Ps. 69:4
He would be hated without cause
John 15:25
38
Ps. 69:8
He would become a stranger to his own brothers
Luke 8:20-21
39
Isa. 53:12
He would be 'numbered with the transgressors'
Luke 23:32
40
Ps. 22:16
His hands and feet would be pierced
John 19:37, 20:27
41
Ps. 22:15
His suffering would include thirst
John 19:28
42
Isa. 53:12
He would intercede for sinners
Luke 23:34
43
Ps. 22:1
He would be forsaken
Matt. 27:46
44
Ps. 22:1
He would cry out to God
Matt. 27:46
45
Ps. 22:8
His faith in God would be mocked
Matt. 27:43
46
Ps. 22:17-18
He would be stripped of his clothing
Luke 23:34-35
47
Ps. 22:18
They would cast lots for his clothing
Matt. 27:35, John 19:23
48
Isa. 53:4-6
He would suffer for the sins of others
2 Cor. 5:21
49
Isa. 53:8,9
He would die
Matt. 27:45-56
50
Ps. 22:14
His death described
John 19:34
51
Zech. 12:10
Zechariah foreshadowed the piercing of Jesus
John 19:34-37
52
Dan. 9:24
He would bring an end to sin
Gal. 1:3-5
53
Isa. 53:9
He would be buried in a wealthy man's tomb
Matt. 27:57-61
54
Ps. 16:9–11
God's anointed one would not see decay
Acts 2:31
55
Zech. 10:4
He would be the cornerstone
Eph. 2:20
56
Ps. 118:22-24
The rejected stone would become the cornerstone
Matt. 21:42,43
57
Ps. 16:8-11
King David prophesied about resurrection
John 20:9
58
Job 19:25-27
Job foreshadows details of resurrection
John 5:24-29
59
2 Sam. 7:12–13
King David’s offspring would have an eternal kingdom
Luke 1:32, Rev. 22:16
60
2 Sam. 7:16
King David's throne would be established forever
Luke 3:31; Rev. 22:16
61
Ps. 89
Another prophetic promise about the permanence of David's throne
Luke 1:32,33
62
Dan. 7:13–14
Son of Man would have everlasting throne
Luke 1:31-33
63
Isa. 11:10
He would be a banner to Gentiles
John 12:18-21
64
Isa. 42:1-4
He would affect people throughout the world
Matt. 28:19,20
65
Isa. 42:6
He would be a light to people around the world
Luke 2:32
66
Mic. 5:4
He would have a worldwide impact
History: Christianity has spread to people all over the world.
67
Gen. 49:10b
He would receive the obedience of the people
History: Christianity has spread to people all over the world.
68
Isa. 49:6
He would bring salvation to the ends of the earth
History: Christianity has spread to people all over the world.

 

[Covenanter]

Although I am going to use a popular song as a demonstration, this thread is to explore ways the assembly should be aware of “the little foxes.”

When is doctrinal error allowed just because ....?

Here is an example:

“Come behold the wondrous mystery” (Come Behold The Wondrous Mystery Lyrics — MATT PAPA)

Then the song continues as if Christ’s death, resurrection, ascension, and return was a mystery!

Each line starts with “Come behold the wondrous mystery.”

Now, Colossians presents that the mystery was not hoist but the church in which the gentiles would be grafted into the believing Jews. The prophets were never given such information. It was hidden, secrete a mystery.

So what else is presented to your assembly in which doctrinal error or even compromise is allowed?

Is there a study lesson, a book study, a esteeming of a person in which is given a pass because it seems right, it sounds good, it tickles the fancy, ... but actually teaches error?

Your turn.

I consider that to be a wonderful new hymn - I was moved to sing it to the tune "What a friend we have in Jesus." It is full of wonderful Scripture truth, with a meter that is easy to sing. Thank you for linking it for us.

Much more serious are the many "praise & worship" songs that are written for enthusiastic singing but have little substance - they sing about Jesus, but we don't really appreciate the wonder of our redemption. That wonder is expressed so clearly in that hymn.

There's more of a problem also with the modern trend to use OHP rather than a hymnbook in our hands. The Gospel church nearest to our new home uses OHP & many new songs. Several of us express appreciation for the occasional old hymn.

It's all part of the "dumbing down" process that started with the singer-song-writer system with songs written for guitar & band.

The OHP system has modernised versions of the old hymns, with omitted verses, new tunes & new choruses. They are often unsuitable for unaccompanied singing, to such an extent they they are soon forgotten - they go from the screen & if you did like it you can't look back at the words.

Will our children have the store of hymns we have learned through a lifetime of worship?

Those of us who have sung the old hymns in hymnbooks have a rich store of doctrine in our memories. Hymns that teach Scripture & doctrine & give us reason to praise & worship.

Worship is NOT enthusiastic singing to a guitar & band. It's from the heart, in Spirit & in Truth.