Can you give some examples of each of these arguments you have presented being made on this site?
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Summarizing the Mistakes of Calvinism
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Can you give some examples of each of these arguments you have presented being made on this site?
quantumfaith
Active Member
I am glad that someone else recognizes that this is precisely what ALL of us do, no matter which "side of aisle" we find ourselves on.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I'm not going to go through a search every thread to find where each individual post fits, but generally speaking you could just about put any of their arguments in one of these three groups.
1. When you here them reference Paul's calling or John 15:16, or other similar passages which speak of those 'given to Christ' or the 'remnant chosen so that God's purpose of election might stand,' those are example of the first mistake...
2. When you see them reference Eph.1 or Rom 8 or any time they use the word 'predestine' they are probably making this mistake....
3. When they take passages where Paul says things like, "I thank God he has chosen you..." (2 Thess etc) or the passages where Jesus is purposefully hiding the truth from them (Mk 4; Matt 13; Rom 9-11 etc), they are probably making this mistake.
If I think about it and you are around I can point them out as we come across them. They aren't hard to fine.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I've only closed one of your threads and it was 21 pages long. There are other mods, so one of them may have closed it if there were reported posts or something. I don't know.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Wouldn't it be strange for me to come here and debate someone else's interpretation, presuppositions and beliefs? :laugh:
Not sure what else you'd be expecting?
"Many are called but few are chosen." Is God so stupid that he calls many and chooses few? Why are they not the same number?
dunno, maybe along the line that God desires all to repent and to get saved, but provides so that just those whom He has elected in Christ might actually do that?
A.T. Robertson wrote, "There is a distinction between the called (klêtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called."
I'm not going to go through a search every thread to find where each individual post fits, but generally speaking you could just about put any of their arguments in one of these three groups.
1. When you here them reference Paul's calling or John 15:16, or other similar passages which speak of those 'given to Christ' or the 'remnant chosen so that God's purpose of election might stand,' those are example of the first mistake...
2. When you see them reference Eph.1 or Rom 8 or any time they use the word 'predestine' they are probably making this mistake....
3. When they take passages where Paul says things like, "I thank God he has chosen you..." (2 Thess etc) or the passages where Jesus is purposefully hiding the truth from them (Mk 4; Matt 13; Rom 9-11 etc), they are probably making this mistake.
If I think about it and you are around I can point them out as we come across them. They aren't hard to fine.
I look forward to your clearing this up.
That is the reason why I wrote what I did. I wonder how few actually read the obvious in their Bible rather than listen to people's SYI.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
There is not two sides when it comes to the correct interpretation of scripture.
quantumfaith
Active Member
In "theory" I agree, but for one to "claim" "I am totally correct and the keeper of all truth" is not intellectually honest and easily borders on arrogance.
Clearing what up?
You made a claim with nothing to back it up. Most likely relying on the "common knowledge" argument. I want to see the claims about what they say or argue substantiated.
It may be very intellectually honest because the person who usually knows at a very high level also knows what he does not know and what his weaknesses are. Those who are knowledgeable do not waste their time on the critics who are ignorant. Scripture tells us how we are to treat our teachers. It may be very stupid to not listen to them. Until you have been around some of the finest in their field you will never understand how well equipped some of them are.
I studied under one of the best masters in the world in my profession. He has had his share of ignorant critics on the outside. I was a judge at a juried show in the U.S. and still have ignorant people tell me how to do my work even after over 40 years of experience. After a show one of the men asked me to privately critique his work. I sensed that he really wanted to learn from me. So I spent about one hour with him. For a few years later he would call me on the phone and ask for help. After the show there was a man who spent his time criticizing the judges and his work was poor. People who have wanted to learn are thankful for what I have taught them. The ignorant still criticize. The knowledgeable easily see through the ignorance of the ignorant and will not try to teach the arrogant anything because it is a waste of time.
Recently I had a pastor's son tell me that I did not know how to make disciples. Every month I talk with 3 other men I have known almost 40 years who have been making disciples most of that time. Two of them have been missionaries in other countries. One of them during communism. The young man who had all the answers has never made any disciples and has left a trail of trouble everywhere he has gone. Yet the four of us are still learning more about making disciples and give each other suggestions so we are able to be more effective.
Ben Franklin was once told that he did not listen and always had a slap for someone he disagreed with. He was told that he would never know any more than he knew then which was very little.
In most cases interpreting scripture is not so much like sliding around like a hog on ice. There are tools that those who are well equipped can us that others are unable to. There is a reason why there are those who study well and have the gifts of teaching. The problem is that the ignorant think that so many others struggle with the same things they do and that is not the case at all.
When I was in seminary it was amazing at what I saw among some students and how they treated some of the best professors. I saw a cocky student who seemed to be regularly criticizing one of the professors who was in charge of the doctoral program at the largest seminary in America. One time he challenged the professor as though the professor was wrong. When the professor answered his question the student sat down and seldom ever said another word. If he had come with that attitude he would have learned a lot more. He came in arrogant and walked away humbled. I have a very good relationship with that same professor and regularly communicate with him about questions I have. I am learning more and more mostly because my skills are better.
The Christian church would be better off if it studied their Bible and spent more time learning from those who have already proven themselves.
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God choose his elect before the foundation of the world and predestinated them to be adopted as children by Christ. Christ accomplished that adoption while he was on the cross.
Alive in Christ
New Member
preacher4truth...
Where in the WORLD do you get the idea that all arminians and/or non-calvinists believe all of those you listed up there???
Gosh, talk about Carpet Bombing! You are ridiculously far out in left field
Where in the WORLD do you get the idea that all arminians and/or non-calvinists believe all of those you listed up there???
Gosh, talk about Carpet Bombing! You are ridiculously far out in left field
quantumfaith
Active Member
Great descriptor AIC.
Maybe he read your post about the light going to everyone everywhere???:laugh:
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