• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Summarizing the Mistakes of Calvinism

Status
Not open for further replies.
:confused:

Did I make any personally demeaning remarks? No.

This is a theological debate forum Willis, what exactly are you expecting to see when you come here?

I'm not insulting anyone or their mother. I'm pointing out what I believe to be three key errors that Calvinists make in their interpretation of the scriptures which lead to our points of disagreement soterilogically.

So, unless their mothers are Calvinistic I have no issue with them, their fat, or their oder. :)


Brother, I pray that you did not take my post as a "pop-shot" towards you. It's just that a thread such as this tends to lean more towards "heat" than "light".

I have always tried to not offend my Calvinist Brethern when I debate them. I have attacked their theology very hard at times, but never them personally. This morning(sunday morning), as I was hanging my coat in the closet after getting home from work, it "dawned" on me. When I attack their theology, I am in many ways attacking them. I have decided from now on, to use more tact in my debates. I will show them why I think they are wrong, but I will do my very best to never attack Calvinism again.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
QF

The NPP is a dangerous heresy that is harming churches.
It confuses and combines justification,and sanctification....
there is much written and preached about it on sermonaudio....stay away from anyone who likes this heresy.
 

glfredrick

New Member
You are still making the same mistake Aaron. You think I believe God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will have faith and then elects them. That is just wrong. That makes the same mistake Calvinists make by over individualizing Paul's intent.

Election is NOT about God individually picking winners and losers before the world begins as you seem to think. It's also not about God looking through time to see who will win, or who has some 'inherent quality' and then picking them. Both are equally in error and until you actually choose to debate MY views (which have been fully established and documented here for you numerous times) and not the straw-men you've erected in your mind, I'm not going to waste my time on you.

Wow... You have just demonstrated a fundamental error against the doctrine of Calvinism. No wonder you are so confused. You are describing the "non-cal" position that so many around here take.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
QF

The NPP is a dangerous heresy that is harming churches.
It confuses and combines justification,and sanctification....
there is much written and preached about it on sermonaudio....stay away from anyone who likes this heresy.

There are perhaps some streams of NPP which take the path of "works", but none in my very limited exposure thus far have gone that way.
 

glfredrick

New Member
If God choose any particularity then there had to be a basis for this choosing. For instance I believe Christ died for everyone so that if they believe they could be saved. Therefore He wasn't picky. He only had requirements that we submit, Believe, and have faith. Your doctrine of election is picky and is why it makes God a respector of particular men. Only certain ones, just screams! partiality. No one is partial with out reason. Any reason doesn't matter. If God looked down through time and could see you would believe or for any reason makes God a respector. This is why your doctrine of election is flawed.
MB

This is an a posteriori comment. God is a priori in His sovereign election. Men "BECOME what He elects" -- not "are elected because of what they have become."
 

glfredrick

New Member
QF

The NPP is a dangerous heresy that is harming churches.
It confuses and combines justification,and sanctification....
there is much written and preached about it on sermonaudio....stay away from anyone who likes this heresy.

Indeed!

In fact, it seems to take a play out of the RCC playbook and make justification a life-long endeavor. Soon they will be calling for purgatory and indulgences. Seems that the enemy has but a few well-crafted tecniques that are continually recycled and which feed into man's sinful rebellion against God -- same sin as Genesis 3.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
This is an a posteriori comment. God is a priori in His sovereign election. Men "BECOME what He elects" -- not "are elected because of what they have become."
It doesn't appear you read his statement, or maybe you misunderstood it?

You are making election about God picking individuals and you argue with him as if he is saying God picks foreseen believing individuals. I don't believe that is correct. Election is not about preselecting individuals, regardless of WHY (i.e. his own hidden sovereign purpose or foreseen faith). That would make Him a 'respecter of persons.'

So, I would actually agree with your statement that, "men become what he elects," in that God has predestined whosoever believes to be adopted as his son and conformed to his image.

Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about out of Deut 7:

6 Do this because you are a people set apart as holy to God, your God. God, your God, chose you out of all the people on Earth for himself as a cherished, personal treasure. 7 God wasn't attracted to you and didn't choose you because you were big and important - the fact is, there was almost nothing to you. 8 He did it out of sheer love, keeping the promise he made to your ancestors. God stepped in and mightily bought you back out of that world of slavery, freed you from the iron grip of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know this: God, your God, is God indeed, a God you can depend upon. He keeps his covenant of loyal love with those who love him and observe his commandments for a thousand generations. 10 But he also pays back those who hate him, pays them the wages of death; he isn't slow to pay them off - those who hate him, he pays right on time. 11 So keep the command and the rules and regulations that I command you today. Do them. 12 And this is what will happen: When you, on your part, will obey these directives, keeping and following them, God, on his part, will keep the covenant of loyal love that he made with your ancestors: 13 He will love you, he will bless you, he will increase you.

Now, when you read the first few verses of this passage do you just automatically assume God is talking about preselected individuals? Or is it clear He is speaking of Israel in contrast to all the peoples of the earth? Look later into the passage and see the part those who are elected play, and the part God plays. This shows how corporate election works with individual responsibility.

This is the Calvinist's problem, IMO. They assume the former intent and over individualize this doctrine to distort its true meaning. God has elected Israel and even some individuals within Israel for special service (prophets, priests, kings, apostles), and God has elected to graft in the Gentiles, whom he has foreknown and planned to redeem from before the foundation of the earth.

Election is not about God pre-picking individual winners and losers. It is about God reconciling the WORLD to HIMSELF!
"...first to the Jew and then to the Gentile."
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Wow... You have just demonstrated a fundamental error against the doctrine of Calvinism. No wonder you are so confused.
What error? Name it. Quote it. Do something that actually constitutes a real argument and then maybe I can rebut it. General unfounded accusations amount to NOTHING.

You are describing the "non-cal" position that so many around here take.
See, you say on the one hand that I'm making a statement of error about Calvinism (without actually telling us what that error was) and on the other hand you accuse me of describing the common 'non-cal' position. Which is it? Is it both? If so, fine, but tell us what you believe the error is.

Next, I know some non-cal describe election in the terms of the 'foreseen faith of individuals' etc, but that IS NOT the only approach, nor is it the actual intent of some non-cal scholars who are accused of this view. It makes the mistake of assuming the reformed premise that election is about God preselecting some individuals over others. Sometimes Calvinists can only read about election through those individualized lenses making even non-Calvinistic scholars appear they too are speaking about God's choice of some individuals over others. I'm not denying some non-Cals take this position, but it is my contention (and the contention of many orthodox scholars) that election must be understood first from the corporate standpoint (i.e. God's choice of Israel then his choice to ingraft the Gentiles). This doesn't mean individuals are not involved, but the corporate aspect must first be acknowledged and understood before moving into explanations regarding how this practically affects individuals.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
What is the difference between blinding Israel and not opening the eyes of certain Gentiles (as in Calvinistic theology)?

Either way you have people who aren't chosen.
And unbelievers are also not chosen...your point? :D
 

glfredrick

New Member
What error? Name it. Quote it. Do something that actually constitutes a real argument and then maybe I can rebut it. General unfounded accusations amount to NOTHING.


See, you say on the one hand that I'm making a statement of error about Calvinism (without actually telling us what that error was) and on the other hand you accuse me of describing the common 'non-cal' position. Which is it? Is it both? If so, fine, but tell us what you believe the error is.

Next, I know some non-cal describe election in the terms of the 'foreseen faith of individuals' etc, but that IS NOT the only approach, nor is it the actual intent of some non-cal scholars who are accused of this view. It makes the mistake of assuming the reformed premise that election is about God preselecting some individuals over others. Sometimes Calvinists can only read about election through those individualized lenses making even non-Calvinistic scholars appear they too are speaking about God's choice of some individuals over others. I'm not denying some non-Cals take this position, but it is my contention (and the contention of many orthodox scholars) that election must be understood first from the corporate standpoint (i.e. God's choice of Israel then his choice to ingraft the Gentiles). This doesn't mean individuals are not involved, but the corporate aspect must first be acknowledged and understood before moving into explanations regarding how this practically affects individuals.

I believe that I cited your statement, did I not? (And I did...) But in any case, here it is again with comments...

Skandelon said:
You are still making the same mistake Aaron. You think I believe God looks down the corridors of time and sees who will have faith and then elects them. That is just wrong. That makes the same mistake Calvinists make by over individualizing Paul's intent.

First, here you equate the Calvinistic view WITH God "looking down the corridors of time and see[ing] who will have faith and then elect[ing] them. That is precisely opposite of the Calvinistic position. God elects -- period -- before the foundations of the world, and by whatever criteria HE uses to elect those whom He deems for salvation.

God does indeed "individualize" and you are attempting to escape the horns of dilemma that you are in concerning election by removing this individualization and making it a corporate affair. That is not the truth of Scripture by example, by inference, or by actual text. We find in Hebrews 11 that God does indeed elect individuals not entire people groups. Those individuals who demonstrated faith are set apart from the masses of people intentionally by the writer. Paul makes the same distinctions when he argues that we are NEITHER Jew nor Greek, but come before God as individuals -- sinners -- in need of salvation.

Skandelon said:
Election is NOT about God individually picking winners and losers before the world begins as you seem to think. It's also not about God looking through time to see who will win, or who has some 'inherent quality' and then picking them. Both are equally in error and until you actually choose to debate MY views (which have been fully established and documented here for you numerous times) and not the straw-men you've erected in your mind, I'm not going to waste my time on you.

It is certainly not about God "individually picking winners and losers before the world begins." How can you be so crass about the will of God? It IS about God electing to salvation (and often to torment as a part of their salvation) those whom He foreordained to salvation by His express will and not because of ANY trait or goodness found in the individual whom He selected.

Both issues above are why I said rather plainly that you are in error about Calvinism. And, for the record, it is not only Calvinism that teaches individal election. You may want to be aware of that before you argue further with your "new perspective" view. You are treading in deep, shark infested waters with the NPP view that you are starting to put forward.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
It is difficult to find a brief layman's explanation of the "New Perspective on Paul" (NPP). To rectify the problem I humbly offer "The Idiot's Guide to the New Perspective on Paul" (myself being the idiot). Comments welcome! I posted something similar to this a while back on an Arminian group discussion, so this may be a repeat for a few.

An Analogy:
Imagine a church that has the following rule: EVERYONE WHO ATTENDS THIS CHURCH MUST WEAR A SUIT. The church has the rule to keep out the bums, reasoning that bums can't afford suits.

The people in the church know very well that wearing a suit in and of itself doesn't make one a Christian. They simply have the requirement for the purpose of excluding others who are not like them. They want the church for themselves, and want to keeps the bums out.

In this analogy the root problem is that the Christians want to exclude others. There is nothing inherently wrong with someone wanting to wear a suit. The problem is that they are using their preference for suits as an arbitrary rule to exclude others.

New Perspective Explained:
Among Protestant circles, Paul's writings have generally been interpreted as a criticism of legalism (the suit in the analogy). NPP argues that Paul's writings are instead a criticism of exclusivism (keeping the bums out).

NPP points out that during Paul's ministry the Jewish Christians were reluctant to accept Gentiles as fellow believers. The Jews often acted in ways to prevent the inclusion of others. One way that this manifested itself was by the demand that the Gentiles follow detailed adherence to the OT law. The law was used as a way of excluding others.

NPP argues that the Jewish Christians knew that salvation came by grace through faith. Or put another way, they did not believe that following the law would save them in and of itself. NPP argues that root problem was that the Jewish Christians wanted to keep Christianity exclusive to themselves. Thus, Paul's criticism of works should be interpreted in this light.

In short, NPP proponents argue that:
1) The Jewish Christians knew that salvation was by grace through faith, and that following the law didn't merit salvation.
2) The Jewish Christians were using the law as grounds to exclude Gentiles from fellowship.
3) Paul's beef was with the exclusion, not with those who wanted to obey the law.

Why does this matter today?
A key component of Protestant theology is that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works (Eph 2:8-9). During the Reformation, Luther and others appealed to Paul's criticism of works in order to point out some of the severe abuses of the Roman Catholic church.

If Paul's primary concern was exclusivism rather than works, some think that this could undermine the scriptural justification for the Reformation. Exclusivism is a different problem than works based salvation.

My Take:
I personally believe that NPP has some merits. But I also believe that the traditional Protestant view does as well. I think that both exclusivism and works salvation were addressed in the scope of Paul's writing. I also believe that both of these views can co-exists along side each other without conflict, and in fact compliment each other.

How does this relate to the Arminian / Calvinist debate?
It is often the case that Arminians are more open to NPP. Calvinists tend to be more critical of it, though this is not always the case. John Piper is a strong critic of NPP, while NT Wright is a proponent. Both are Calvinists. I personally see no reason why Arminians or Calvinists must reject NPP, as it has little to say about the definition of election or the scope of the atonement. As mentioned earlier, it does touch on certain aspects of Reformational thought, however, this is not in and of itself a good reason to reject the theory.

http://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/2009/04/idiots-guide-to-new-perspective-on-paul.html
 

MB

Well-Known Member
This is an a posteriori comment. God is a priori in His sovereign election. Men "BECOME what He elects" -- not "are elected because of what they have become."
Actualy the Jews were elected because they were the least of all people on earth.
MB
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Okay... :BangHead:

One must be very cautious when making a determination on a single scripture.

"The LORD did not set his heart on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other nations, for you were the smallest of all nations!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

glfredrick

New Member
Quantum, do you see that the NPP errs in its primary tenet, i.e., that the Jewish Christians knew that salvation was by grace through faith? They did not know that and over and again in Scripture we find them arguing for the keeping of some portion of the Law. That was one of the primary things that Paul argued against.

It also mightily errs when it assumes that election is for a group, the Jews, and not for individuals who profess faith by God's grace, which is why it is such a dangerous new trend.

It literally sets sideways everything the Bible actually argues, akin to the metaphor I used for Skandelon (or someone) in an earlier post. One can be hired to paint a building, arrive, erect a great scaffolding, paint the entire building magnificently, but when it comes time to get paid for the job, it is discovered that the original address was incorrect and the wrong building painted. So it is when the starting point for an argument is made -- wonderful logical heirarchy is erected and great points are argued, but on the payday it is discovered that the starting point is incorrect and all the logic and debate was for naught.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top