Supralapasarian "Hyper-Calvinism" Defended

[tyndale1946]

and just HOW does this answer what you quote from KenH?

What God does is his business, is his and his alone... He knows the heart of man and no one else does... There have been so many on here just because they believe different than someone else does, they believe they are not saved... God's is in the Salvation business alone and he knows what his will and purpose is and no one else does... Brethren on would be better off if they looked at the thief on the cross... He was a criminal and when he was nailed on the cross with the other thief, those standing by wrote him off... Surely he is going to get his just desserts... Justice is what he deserved and its what we all deserved, but by God's Love Mercy and Grace... He that was Hell bound is now Heaven bound and he had nothing to do with it... Saved on a cross, by Jesus Christ (The Living Gospel) on a cross... Ken knows as well as I do... God's in charge!... Brother Glen

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[KenH]

You are hoping that you are saved as you do not have any biblical support for your claim.

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[KenH]

What God does is his business, is his and his alone... He knows the heart of man and no one else does... There have been so many on here just because they believe different than someone else does, they believe they are not saved... God's is in the Salvation business alone and he knows what his will and purpose is and no one else does... Brethren on would be better off if they looked at the thief on the cross... He was a criminal and when he was nailed on the cross with the other thief, those standing by wrote him off... Surely he is going to get his just desserts... Justice is what he deserved and its what we all deserved, but by God's Love Mercy and Grace... He that was Hell bound is now Heaven bound and he had nothing to do with it... Saved on a cross, by Jesus Christ (The Living Gospel) on a cross... Ken knows as well as I do... God's in charge!... Brother Glen

Matthew 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Timely post, as Richard Warmack preached yesterday about the thief on the cross that was saved.

And his sermon notes: 33242142542343.pdf (sermonaudio.com)

 

[tyndale1946]

Timely post, as Richard Warmack preached yesterday about the thief on the cross that was saved.

And his sermon notes: 33242142542343.pdf (sermonaudio.com)

You know Ken, I was sitting in church yesterday with my wife and I saw this man whom I've, never met shaking hands... I thought I would like to meet that man but before I could get out of my seat, he came to where we were and introduced himself... God is always on time... He provides what we need... He's full of blessings... Thanks... I'll take a listen... Brother Glen

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 8:31-39 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That's good that you can quote scripture but that still does not do you any good. You still are not basing your salvation on faith in the Risen Christ.

Calvinists believe that human salvation is predetermined by God from before the foundation of the world. Calvinists posit God in eternity past predestined some humans to salvation, leaving everyone else as they are, dead in trespasses and sin.

While calvinists carry on endlessly about salvation by grace, a closer examination of how the doctrines of grace work themselves out in the lives of calvinistic church members reveals a works-based salvation scheme. According to calvinist theology, salvation is conditional. Those who are truly saved must persevere until the bitter end to enter Heaven after death. And even then, they could be unsaved and land in Hell. You see, some calvinists can think they are “saved,” but they are not. They are temporary Christians, people under the common grace of God, but not his special, discriminate grace. In other words, God lets some calvinists go through life thinking they are Christians, only to tell them when they draw their last breath, ha! the joke is on you. I never chose you, and now you will burn in the Lake of Fire for eternity. What an awesome deity, right?

So for the calvinist the question is always. Am I truly saved? Am I one of the elect? Even your faith is not your own, it had to be given to you. So what security do you really have?

 

[KenH]

You still are not basing your salvation on faith in the Risen Christ.

Yes, I am.

According to calvinist theology, salvation is conditional

Then by your own definition, I am not a Calvinist.

Salvation is conditioned on Christ ALONE.

a closer examination of how the doctrines of grace work themselves out in the lives of calvinistic church members reveals a works-based salvation scheme

I have heard that there are Calvinistic churches that teach salvation is initially by grace and then they turn around and falsely teach that one has to work to remain saved. I am thankful that God led me to preachers of the true gospel of Christ that is based totally on Christ ALONE from eternity all the way to the new heavens and earth wherein dwells righteousness.

Folks need to be careful about regarding those churches, who may agree on the "Ordo salutis" regarding how God regenerates and brings to faith and repentance from dead works His elect, as a monolithic group.

At Grace Baptist Church of Ruston there is no talk about works being necessary to remain saved(believers will do good works that God has already ordained for them to do (Ephesians 2:10), but they are neither salvific nor something to "keep" them saved.

The "P" is TULIP should be called "preservation of the saints". The elect will persevere, but only because God preserves(keeps) them.

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

they could be unsaved and land in Hell

None of God's elect, whom He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, will ever become unsaved, nor end up in Hell.

They are temporary Christians

There is nothing "temporary" about my salvation in Christ Jesus.

God lets some calvinists go through life thinking they are Christians

According to this verse, such a situation applies to lots of folks(regardless of what they might be called), who do not love the truth:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 They received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So for the calvinist the question is always. Am I truly saved? Am I one of the elect?

Then by your own definition, I am not a Calvinist, as that is not my situation.

Even your faith is not your own, it had to be given to you.

Absolutely faith(and repentance of dead works) had to be given to me. It's the only way anyone has true Biblical faith and true Biblical repentance of dead works:

1 Corinthians 4:7 What hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

So what security do you really have?

I have this:

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I have this:

Romans 8:31-39 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,

For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have this:

Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[KenH]

. According to calvinist theology, salvation is conditional. Those who are truly saved must persevere until the bitter end to enter Heaven after death.

A good friend of mine just posted this brief audio by my pastor at Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, where he blasts these very Calvinists, or anyone else, that you describe who ascribe works to being kept saved.

https://youtube.com/shorts/L3-8sOHYDWw?si=4IcyN7s0hvyHF4lf

 

[Silverhair]

Absolutely faith(and repentance of dead works) had to be given to me. It's the only way anyone has true Biblical faith and true Biblical repentance of dead works:.

So you are hoping that you were actually picked as one of the calvinist "elect" as by you own words it is not because you believe as according to you faith & repentance are dead works. Faith has to be given to you. So the Holy Spirit got it all wrong and we should listen to you a mere man.

You may feel that you were chosen but your feelings will not save you. Perhaps God will open your eyes to the truth or perhaps you just have what Calvin called Evanescent Faith.

 

[KenH]

So you are hoping that you were actually picked

Actually, I know that God chose me before the world began and gave me to Christ to be my Surety.

You may feel that you were chosen

No feelings involved - I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Timothy 1:12)

The apostle Paul didn't go by his feelings, and neither do I.

So on this item I agree with you when you wrote, "your feelings will not save you."

 

[Silverhair]

Actually, I know that God chose me before the world began and gave me to Christ to be my Surety.



No feelings involved - I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Timothy 1:12)

The apostle Paul didn't go by his feelings, and neither do I.

So on this item I agree with you when you wrote, "your feelings will not save you."

You have no way of knowing if you were indeed chosen before the foundation of the world. You just have to hope you were. You can not even say you were saved by the grace of God through faith. As that requires that you actually exercise a free will which you claim man does not actually have.

The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If you fail to persevere, that only reveals that while you may have thought your faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine deception.

So for you, confidence of perseverance is tied up in being regenerate, and it is not at all clear how you can be sure you are regenerate unless you persevere (to the end) in the faith (a problem of circularity that effectively kills assurance). So the bigger problem for you is that you cannot be sure that you will wake up every morning as a believer because your faith may, in fact, be spurious.

You can have no real confidence at all that he will wake up tomorrow morning, or any other morning, as a believer. In short, you are guilty of wishful thinking and nothing more.

I say all this in the hope that God will open your eyes to the truth of His word.

 

[KenH]

@Silverhair As a song written by Bruce Woodley and recorded by The Seekers says, don't tell me my mind. The Bible says the same thing:

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? 1 Corinthians 2:11

I say all this

I have no use for your sophistry, Silverhair.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair As a song written by Bruce Woodley and recorded by The Seekers says, don't tell me my mind. The Bible says the same thing:

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? 1 Corinthians 2:11



I have no use for your sophistry, Silverhair.

You just do not like it when someone point out the obvious errors of your theology. You think the foundation of your theology is biblical, do some reading and see that it is not. The basis of your view is pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine.

Denying the truth will not make it untrue. You have hooked your wagon to a man-made philosophy and you have closed your eyes to the truth.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Man in his free will makes choices that he will be held accountable for.

I’m not disputing that man has accountability for choices but the field apparently is not established if God is a god of papa Gepeto. Is this a God of fate, one that creates everything that happens in the world, or perhaps he is a Free Will God who lays down law and then punishes you for breaking that law? Either way I don’t perceive either to be very forgiving and merciful.

Let me ask you bluntly, do you believe in Original Sin?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

@KenH you have no basis of saying that you are part of the elect. Are you a Jew, as that is who Deu 7:7-8 is referring to not gentiles. Calvinist's have to take verses out of context in the hope they will support their view.

No calvinist can know for sure if they are saved as they think they have been given faith after they are saved. Remember you calvinist's do not even have the ability trust in Christ until after you are born again.

What’s the fruit of the spirit?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Creature man doesn't get to tell his Creator what the Creator can or cannot do. The Creator "calls the shots", not the creature.

So there is absolutely no Free Will is your statement in your paradigm. God is the puppet master, the controller in every situation. So that when we sin it’s really Him telling us to sin. Therefore the evil in this world is directed and then mandated by Him, is that your belief?

 

[KenH]

So there is absolutely no Free Will is your statement in your paradigm. God is the puppet master, the controller in every situation. So that when we sin it’s really Him telling us to sin. Therefore the evil in this world is directed and then mandated by Him, is that your belief?

1) God is the Creator, man is the creature. God is the potter, man is the clay.

2) God is sovereign, man is responsible. Faith in Christ and repentance of dead works are gifts that God's elect are given after the Holy Spirit regenerates them under the hearing of the gospel of Christ. They are gifts from God and real possessions - I actually have faith in Christ, I actually repent of dead works which cannot save. God is sovereign, man is responsible.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

3) All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalms 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don’t start Ken, I am a Primitive Baptist and I’m studied in scripture. You should know my beliefs by now. You come close but not when it comes to Absolute Predestination.

 

[KenH]

Don’t start Ken

Don't start what? You asked me a question and I answered it. Did you not want me to answer it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Timely post, as Richard Warmack preached yesterday about the thief on the cross that was saved.

And his sermon notes: 33242142542343.pdf (sermonaudio.com)

Wow, the guy looks like Junior Suprano with a southern twang. This would not work in Northern Jersey… Even among the High Calvinist! No wonder they stay in the south. Got it! Well maybe in Florida in the Villages that cater to elderly Yankees

 

[KenH]

the guy looks like Junior Suprano

Who is Junior Suprano?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Don't start what? You asked me a question and I answered it. Did you not want me to answer it?

OK then forget I mentioned it. Endless proof texting was not the point, what I was looking for was critical thinking but that isn’t possible with puppets.

However I would like to know if this Absoluter position is the stance of the Teaching Elder and the church in general. I suppose I could look it up myself.