SWBTS M.Div, D.Min

[Petros]

I am currently looking at Seminaries to continue my education in these two degrees. What are your thoughts on SWBTS's Admin, faculty, reputation, etc? Is it a strong school in expository preaching and original language study?

Thanks, from the less experienced to the more so! :thumbs:

 

[preachinjesus]

As the school currently stands its an okay place to do your MDiv. If you're going to minister in SBC churches it is in the middle of the pack of seminaries in the SBC. As for DMin...well, I guess if you have to get one you can get it there. Here's the thing, usually they hope that MDiv students will take off 3 or 4 years between MDiv completion and DMin enrollment. I'm not sure if that is your plan but that is what they (should) council.

When I was a SWBTS (yes, I'm an alum) it was a different place and different time. With the new regime the place is completely different and, honestly, not a better one from my perspective. Though the bottom two seminaries in the SBC system are definitely holding down the fort and not going anywhere, SWBTS and SEBTS are contending for the middle ground. SBTS is untouchable for a while coming. If you like Dr Patterson and his ways you'll be like a pig and mud and that's good. Go there. I like Drs Patterson (both of them) and appreciate the broader ministry focus.

Long gone are the days when the robust faculty roamed the halls and challenged students away from the tired, dead fundamentalism. No more are the delightful lectures by renowned scholars like Millard Erickson, Calvin Miller, and the rigorous discussion of the history faculty led by McBeth, Baker, and Estep. Its a different time, but it is a good seminary for an MDiv. Hope it helps.

 

[gb93433]

As the school currently stands its an okay place to do your MDiv. If you're going to minister in SBC churches it is in the middle of the pack of seminaries in the SBC.

When I was a SWBTS (yes, I'm an alum) it was a different place and different time. With the new regime the place is completely different and, honestly, not a better one from my perspective.

Long gone are the days when the robust faculty roamed the halls and challenged students away from the tired, dead fundamentalism. No more are the delightful lectures by renowned scholars like Millard Erickson, Calvin Miller, and the rigorous discussion of the history faculty led by McBeth, Baker, and Estep. Its a different time, but it is a good seminary for an MDiv. Hope it helps.

I agree in most points. Many of the same professors we had are at B.H. Carroll Theological Institute. Sometime when you get a chance read Dr. Lea's commentary (NAC) on Timothy and see if it agrees with what he taught. You forgot to mention Dr. Lorin Cranford and Dr. Harry Hunt.

 

[Greektim]

As the school currently stands its an okay place to do your MDiv. If you're going to minister in SBC churches it is in the middle of the pack of seminaries in the SBC. As for DMin...well, I guess if you have to get one you can get it there. Here's the thing, usually they hope that MDiv students will take off 3 or 4 years between MDiv completion and DMin enrollment. I'm not sure if that is your plan but that is what they (should) council.

When I was a SWBTS (yes, I'm an alum) it was a different place and different time. With the new regime the place is completely different and, honestly, not a better one from my perspective. Though the bottom two seminaries in the SBC system are definitely holding down the fort and not going anywhere, SWBTS and SEBTS are contending for the middle ground. SBTS is untouchable for a while coming. If you like Dr Patterson and his ways you'll be like a pig and mud and that's good. Go there. I like Drs Patterson (both of them) and appreciate the broader ministry focus.

Long gone are the days when the robust faculty roamed the halls and challenged students away from the tired, dead fundamentalism. No more are the delightful lectures by renowned scholars like Millard Erickson, Calvin Miller, and the rigorous discussion of the history faculty led by McBeth, Baker, and Estep. Its a different time, but it is a good seminary for an MDiv. Hope it helps.

I take issue w/ saying that SEBTS is holding down the middle ground. Their faculty has (arguably) the highest standards of scholars in the SBC. The top 3 that come to mind are Kohstenberger, Black, and Cole (just to name 3). Losing Sailhammer was a blow, but they have some top notch guys there that in my mind put them up there w/ SBTS. I think in nearly every category, they exceed the other 5. Yes I am biased. But I think credit should be given where credit is due.

To give some data to prove my point, check out this link (http://chronicle.com/stats/productivity/page.php?bycat=true&primary=10&secondary=229&year=2007) that puts SEBTS in the top 5 of the Top Research Universities Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index. SEBTS was a surprise to be on the list, except to those of us who know better

Gotta defend my school

 

[gb93433]

I take issue w/ saying that SEBTS is holding down the middle ground. Their faculty has (arguably) the highest standards of scholars in the SBC. The top 3 that come to mind are Kohstenberger, Black, and Cole (just to name 3). Losing Sailhammer was a blow, but they have some top notch guys there that in my mind put them up there w/ SBTS. I think in nearly every category, they exceed the other 5. Yes I am biased. But I think credit should be given where credit is due.

I have heard amny good things about the seminary today. What do you think has prompted it toi improve?

 

[Greektim]

I have heard amny good things about the seminary today. What do you think has prompted it toi improve?

Good grammar and spelling for one. Couldn't resist.

SEBTS was by far the most liberal of the SBC sems. But it was turned around, and they have done nothing except improve. You could give credit to the various presidents, but honestly they would point to God. So will I.

I honestly believe that their faculty is 2nd to none in the SBC, although I'm partial to a some at SBTS who I've had in class or read.

 

[gb93433]

Good grammar and spelling for one. Couldn't resist.

God's grace extends to me in terms of typing skills.

SEBTS was by far the most liberal of the SBC sems. But it was turned around, and they have done nothing except improve. You could give credit to the various presidents, but honestly they would point to God. So will I.

I honestly believe that their faculty is 2nd to none in the SBC, although I'm partial to a some at SBTS who I've had in class or read.

It seems to me from what I have seen they are real people trying to live the Christian life in a quiet way and do not get all caught up in politics and be about self promotion and image. When I was at SWBTS some I knew who were from that area decided to go to SEBTS because they felt after Dilday was fired that there would no longer be any difference.

Their attitude reminds me when I studied furniture making under one of the best in the world. The master told us that he did not want to make a piece of furniture that made a loud statement and then once the person took a quick look at it they would walk away. Rather he wanted us to do such nice work on the front, sides, and back that they fit together in such a way that once the person started looking they would continue to look because of the craftsmanship and design.

 

[preachinjesus]

I agree in most points. Many of the same professors we had are at B.H. Carroll Theological Institute. Sometime when you get a chance read Dr. Lea's commentary (NAC) on Timothy and see if it agrees with what he taught. You forgot to mention Dr. Lorin Cranford and Dr. Harry Hunt.

Fair points all around. One could reasonably mention a host of other faculty from the high days on the Hill in Fort Worth. Those days are gone.

Ironic, SWBTS has moved from a place J Frank Norris wanted to burn to a place he would (now) want to partner with...just an example.

 

[preachinjesus]

I take issue w/ saying that SEBTS is holding down the middle ground. Their faculty has (arguably) the highest standards of scholars in the SBC. The top 3 that come to mind are Kohstenberger, Black, and Cole (just to name 3). Losing Sailhammer was a blow, but they have some top notch guys there that in my mind put them up there w/ SBTS. I think in nearly every category, they exceed the other 5. Yes I am biased. But I think credit should be given where credit is due.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I think its wrong, but appreciate the point. Nobody in the SBC can rival SBTS right now. Not in terms of academic faculty, facilities, leadership, or (as I understand it) endowment. These things matter.

Sailhammer is a fine scholar and his leaving was difficult. The larger concern at SEBTS is the leadership isn't nearly as scholarly as SBTS. (Let's not get into a nasty bout of name calling...which I'll do my best not to do.)

To give some data to prove my point, check out this link (http://chronicle.com/stats/productivity/page.php?bycat=true&primary=10&secondary=229&year=2007) that puts SEBTS in the top 5 of the Top Research Universities Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index. SEBTS was a surprise to be on the list, except to those of us who know better

Gotta defend my school

This is a good link and I'm thankful you provided it. But I think the research is specious. How many of SEBTS' faculty (minus Kostenberger) are publishing outside B&H? How many are considered significant in the larger academic/theological conversation? I don't know of many...maybe Black. Having B&H in your back pocket helps with all this data imho.

I think another thing is (having been to all the seminaries) SBTS is just miles beyond SEBTS in terms of facilities too. While SWBTS has a better library (and honestly better access to more/other institutions because of DFW) it hasn't utilized it as it should. There are lots of questions about SWBTS' perceived fundamentalism in the academic world. I don't know of too many serious scholars looking to the faculty at SEBTS or SWBTS for insight.

Perhaps we can reasonably say the SBTS is the leading school in SBC world right now. My contention about SEBTS and SWBTS essentially puts SEBTS in the lead there (quite a horse race.) If I had to recommend a SBC seminary right now it would (probably) be between SBTS and SEBTS. I loved being able to interact with faculty and have access to so many different church models in DFW...but I think DTS offers a better institution in that region right now.

In the end I think it still comes down to preference in some areas. This is a good conversation...thanks for the insightful post and I certainly appreciate the commitment to your alma mater.

 

[gb93433]

Ironic, SWBTS has moved from a place J Frank Norris wanted to burn to a place he would (now) want to partner with...just an example.

WOW!!!! So sad. Would they kill someone too?

 

[gb93433]

This is a good link and I'm thankful you provided it. But I think the research is specious. How many of SEBTS' faculty (minus Kostenberger) are publishing outside B&H? How many are considered significant in the larger academic/theological conversation? I don't know of many...maybe Black. Having B&H in your back pocket helps with all this data imho.

To notice the number Journal publications per faculty seemed somewhat strange. When I was teaching we had to have about one per year to receive tenure. I can only think of one faculty member in our department who had none while he was teaching but many over the years. He had just retired and was one of the tops in the nation in his field but only had a BA.

 

[go2church]

Really any SBC school now is going to have a bit of a different flavor because of location and teachers. In reality they are all teaching with the same ingredients these days, so you're basically going to end up with the same meal. The SBC isn't big on diversity, especially when it comes to their seminaries. Didn't used to be that way, but times have changed.

If you hope to serve in an SBC church, you better stay with one of the six, my experience is that SBC churches don't trust non SBC schools, even the really good ones.

I would be surprised if you didn't have wait some years after finishing your Mdiv to work on a Dmin and if you hope to teach at the seminary level I would run and hide from the Dmin and get a Phd.

For my money there are far better seminaries then what is being offered by the SBC. But if they represent what you want to be then have at it.

 

[gb93433]

The SBC isn't big on diversity, especially when it comes to their seminaries.

There is always a good reason why. If there is not some diversity and they are all cookie cutter examples then they will all go down together when change is required.

If you hope to serve in an SBC church, you better stay with one of the six, my experience is that SBC churches don't trust non SBC schools, even the really good ones.

I guess that what they do not realize is that the SBC has faculty who teach in their seminaries who did graduate from a SBC seminary. Just look at the provost at SWBTS. Historically the SBC has not been dispensational but take a look at the provost and president at SWBTS.

For my money there are far better seminaries then what is being offered by the SBC.

What would you suggest?

 

[preachinjesus]

WOW!!!! So sad. Would they kill someone too?

The current President has made it well known he advocates students carrying (properly licensed) weapons to class.

 

[gb93433]

The current President has made it well known he advocates students carrying (properly licensed) weapons to class.

In a church I pastored was a man who had been harassed in earlier years by a church leader. He told me that he got tired of the leader belittling him. One day when the leader said something to him that he did not like he pointed to his gun. The leader shaped up a lot after that and never caused any trouble. The church leadership at that church had a history of running off pastors. So I guess a gun might come in handy sometime. There was a time when a church leader waited for me after when he thought everyone was gone just so he could at least have some words with me. The sermon was on gossip and when he exited the church he had some loud not so nice words for me. He waited around and I did not know it. When I was ready to leave he walked up to me and had quite a number of words. I was prepared for a fight with him. He was very angry. Fortunately for him there was a person who walked up. Later he recruited some trouble for me. The oldest was about 50 and they have since committed suicide and/or died. Ir read each of their obituaries in the paper. All were younger than me except him.

What is the idea behind the promotion of students carrying guns.

Imagine the Pistol Packin' Pastor.

 

[Greektim]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I think its wrong, but appreciate the point. Nobody in the SBC can rival SBTS right now. Not in terms of academic faculty, facilities, leadership, or (as I understand it) endowment. These things matter.

Sailhammer is a fine scholar and his leaving was difficult. The larger concern at SEBTS is the leadership isn't nearly as scholarly as SBTS. (Let's not get into a nasty bout of name calling...which I'll do my best not to do.)



This is a good link and I'm thankful you provided it. But I think the research is specious. How many of SEBTS' faculty (minus Kostenberger) are publishing outside B&H? How many are considered significant in the larger academic/theological conversation? I don't know of many...maybe Black. Having B&H in your back pocket helps with all this data imho.

I think another thing is (having been to all the seminaries) SBTS is just miles beyond SEBTS in terms of facilities too. While SWBTS has a better library (and honestly better access to more/other institutions because of DFW) it hasn't utilized it as it should. There are lots of questions about SWBTS' perceived fundamentalism in the academic world. I don't know of too many serious scholars looking to the faculty at SEBTS or SWBTS for insight.

Perhaps we can reasonably say the SBTS is the leading school in SBC world right now. My contention about SEBTS and SWBTS essentially puts SEBTS in the lead there (quite a horse race.) If I had to recommend a SBC seminary right now it would (probably) be between SBTS and SEBTS. I loved being able to interact with faculty and have access to so many different church models in DFW...but I think DTS offers a better institution in that region right now.

In the end I think it still comes down to preference in some areas. This is a good conversation...thanks for the insightful post and I certainly appreciate the commitment to your alma mater.

I think my biggest disagreement is that the faculty of SEBTS is up to snuff with SBTS. What is nice is that those 2 schools share a lot of teachers. I thoroughly enjoyed Dr. Pennington when he came to SEBTS.

As for facilities, I'll admit that besides Patterson Hall, most of the buildings are older. But the student body has been growing steadily. And we have the luxury of being near Duke and UNC. So we have library opportunities that I don't believe SBTS has. And we get to see Ehrman if we are so inclined (not sure if that helps my case). Honestly, I would admit that SBTS has SEBTS beat in every category except for faculty (especially Biblical Studies). I will also admit that I like SBTS PhD program setup much more than SEBTS.

But it is always fun to argue over this, b/c in the end it is more subjective than anything (except I proved it w/ an outside source utilizing data). And Dr. K is not the only one publishing outside of B&H.

BTW... I like SEBTS theological journal better too. It is much more broadly evangelical than SBTS. But whatever...

Man I could go on and on and on and...

This is fun!

 

[preachinjesus]

Well it is a bit like are Yalie arguing with a Harvard man. It is enjoyable.

For what its worth, I almost did a PhD at SEBTS. I got accepted and everything, but ended up pursuing another path. I think SEBTS is an exciting seminary to watch for the next decade.

SWBTS, on the other hand, isn't looking good long term.

I hope we haven't scared off the OP.

 

[go2church]

I would recommend Truett at Baylor, they really are gathering quite a group of quality professors and have worked hard to remain connected to the work of local church.

Outside Baptist circles, umm Trinity Evangelical and Fuller

 

[Petros]

Well it is a bit like are Yalie arguing with a Harvard man. It is enjoyable.

For what its worth, I almost did a PhD at SEBTS. I got accepted and everything, but ended up pursuing another path. I think SEBTS is an exciting seminary to watch for the next decade.

SWBTS, on the other hand, isn't looking good long term.

I hope we haven't scared off the OP.

Nah, lol I'm still around. Can you elaborate on "not looking good long term" a bit? That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for...

 

[Baptist Believer]

The current President has made it well known he advocates students carrying (properly licensed) weapons to class.

That's one of the areas where I agree with the current President.